Little Busters - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Wow. So one slap proves mistreatment on par with (or even greater than!) several years of severe physical and verbal abuse.

Nobody is saying that Kanata had it easy, but don't you think it's a bit presumptive to assume that Kanata was abused exactly as much as Haruka was?

The slap is only a hint that can be combined with other elements, such as Kanata's comment (even the "you should just die" that she never used to anyone else so far, even towards Haruka).
Also, Kud's reaction is a certain hint. Please be aware that Kud was shocked by what she'd -seen- considering the presentation of the scene.

Might be abused?! What is with the "might" part? It's very clear that Haruka was severely abused. There's no "might" about it.

Kitten's use of might doesn't mean "the abuse is unsure". The meaning implies "even though she was abused, she had freedom on the other hand".
Not the first time I see "might" used as a way to admit a fact, but present another alongside.

Why are people on this thread now trying to downplay the abuse Haruka received and/or exaggerate the abuse Kanata received?

That's exactly because you only have Haruka point of view that you need to have the broad perspective.
Haruka was abused, but so far she is not afflicted by anything, is sitll physically healthy and does manage to go to school. In fact, it is implied by her speech that ever since she is at school, she is no longer gnawed by the abuse of the family, save the spy they have sent so they keep her in check (which is probably the reason why they decided to "teach her a lesson" with the flyers).

But what do you know about Kanata so far? Nothing, except that she was initially harassed by Haruka so the family would criticize her. And for a mere suggestion of "this has been gone too far", she was slapped hard. So anything further would probably lead to harsher punishment, despite being the "heir".

[kitten320]

Triple_R

You clearly didn't follow her conversation with Riki, did you?
For one, Kanata got slapped just for not agreeing. The slap was hard that left a mark. Imagine what treatment did she get if she failed at something? What treatment did she get when not being able to keep Haruka in check?

Also just as she said people believe that if they are unhappy, then everyone else is happy. That's the exact logic Haruka follows. She believes that her life is horrible while Kanata's is perfect. So called unhappy people don't stop to take a deeper look on so called happy people.

I have same thing going with my sister. No, we are not harrasing each other and do talk normally. However, unlike me she openly shows her emotions and cries easily. She believes that I'm made out of rock because unlike her I don't react same way. But I'm a human being just like her and I get hurt just as much. Just because I don't show it doesn't mean I don't suffer.

Even in medicine there is such thing: Who needs to be treated first from an accident? The one who cries in pain or the one that brushes it off? The answer is the second. If 1st person has enough strength to scream, they should be fine for now while the one who is quiet could slip away any moment and needs to be checked first. Just because they don't express pain doesn't mean they don't feel it. Besides there are those who simply feel it different than others.

One of my friends friends has huge lack in sensitivity. She managed to burn her leg against a hot tube without noticing. She didn't feel pain even though her skin was boiling and falling off!

Emotions are the same. Just because Kanata looks fine and cool doesn't mean that everything is perfect in her life.

Haak

She felt awkward when Kanata entered the room but there was no reason to feel awkward after that since she saw Kanata in pajamas after shower many times. She clearly saw something. At first I though that Kanata was crying but it it didn't really add up in my head. Bruises is the only thing I can think off because of the lack of sleeves.
Urd's 2nd reaction also seemed slight different from the 1st.
Besides Urd doesn't look very happy in preview either.

Klashikari
Thank you for clearing up some points in my place!

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Kanon

The resemblance might actually an actual plot point. I'm starting to think Shou is the father of both girls and that the heteropaternal superfecundation is lie the family came up with so that they could have at least one "proper" heiress.

Here is a detail from the VN, which probably won't be covered because the anime skipped this whole part and is already going into later scenes. I hope I can clear up some of the confusion in this thread regarding why they didn't try a DNA test.

Spoiler:

After Shou was imprisoned, the family wanted to prove which girl was his child, so they actually did decide on a DNA test. The thing is, Shou absolutely refused to take part in the test, despite how the family offered to bail him out of prison if he consented. With no choice, the family decided that the "better" of the twins would be the heir to the Futakis.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Tempester

Here is a detail from the VN, which probably won't be covered because the anime skipped this whole part and is already going into later scenes. I hope I can clear up some of the confusion in this thread regarding why they didn't try a DNA test.

Spoiler:

After Shou was imprisoned, the family wanted to prove which girl was his child, so they actually did decide on a DNA test. The thing is, Shou absolutely refused to take part in the test, despite how the family offered to bail him out of prison if he consented. With no choice, the family decided that the "better" of the twins would be the heir to the Futakis.

Spoiler for Answer to VN spoiler:

The VN has a pretty bad explaination then...
Because a court can order a DNA test.

[Klashikari]

Except it wasn't a decision of the court. The court had nothing to do with the whole "who is Shou's daughter", exactly because none were involved with his murder. It was only the Saigusa frantically trying to figure out, in order to "weed out" the shame they have got through Shou's actions.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The slap is only a hint that can be combined with other elements, such as Kanata's comment (even the "you should just die" that she never used to anyone else so far, even towards Haruka).

I took the "You should just die" remark as Kanata expressing understandable moral outrage over the way her family had smeared Haruka's name throughout the entire school.

Also, Kud's reaction is a certain hint.

Like Haak, I didn't get much from that scene. Kud simply struck me as feeling awkward and nervous, for perfectly understandable reasons (i.e. the heated dispute between her roommate and her LB! friends)

That's exactly because you only have Haruka point of view that you need to have the broad perspective.

I'm not saying that Kanata is unsympathetic here. Quite the contrary. I'm saying there's no need to blow up her own abuse to be equal to Haruka's in order for Kanata to be sympathetic. There's other reasons to view Kanata in a sympathetic light.

Originally Posted by kitten320

Triple_R

You clearly didn't follow her conversation with Riki, did you?

I closely followed her conversation with Riki.

For one, Kanata got slapped just for not agreeing.

Yes, and your point? Ohana got slapped like that in Hanasaku Iroha. That doesn't mean Ohana was a victim of constant abuse.

The slap was hard that left a mark. Imagine what treatment did she get if she failed at something? What treatment did she get when not being able to keep Haruka in check?

This is purely speculative. If the anime wants us to think that Kanata was abused just as much as Haruka was then let the anime make that clear.

Also just as she said people believe that if they are unhappy, then everyone else is happy. That's the exact logic Haruka follows. She believes that her life is horrible while Kanata's is perfect. So called unhappy people don't stop to take a deeper look on so called happy people.

Sure, Kanata probably doesn't have things as good as Haruka thinks she does. That doesn't mean that Kanata was abused exactly as much as Haruka was. Honestly, that doesn't even make a lick of sense to me. Why would a family abuse the cherished daughter as much as they do the one cast aside and treated with complete contempt and shame?

[Kudryavka]

As interesting as Triple R's statements are, I think we should remember that he does not know the outcome and did not play the game. He is just speculating. Please be gentle with him! He will learn the truth soon enough.

And man Triple_R are you in for an unimaginable surprise. But I will leave it at that. That's the fun for you to discover!

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Sure, Kanata probably doesn't have things as good as Haruka thinks she does. That doesn't mean that Kanata was abused exactly as much as Haruka was. Honestly, that doesn't even make a lick of sense to me. Why would a family abuse the cherished daughter as much as they do the one cast aside and treatment with complete contempt and shame?

"Cherished" is the wrong word.
As implied so far, the Saigusa does -not- care about the girls one bit. They have that strong family pride that base everything on prestige, bloodline and pedigree. As result, they gave credits to Kanata only because of criteria of success instead for what she and Haruka are.

In such harsh environnment as this one, a family representative must be -shaped- to meet the family name standards. This is especially true for old fashioned asian family regarding their offspring as the family branch future, especially if it is a girl, because it would be the corner stone to make alliance with other families and strengthen their influence (even more evident with their customs of having 2 husbands for a given woman).

Considering they only cared about Haruka and Kanata's genetics, and had to use their scholarship as a method of comparison in a last ditch of effort, you really cannot consider Kanata as cherished at all.

Oh and don't worry. I only use the knowledge I have with usual families such as these... I think I have the knack with that kind of stories (*ahem* Umineko).

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The court had nothing to do with the whole "who is Shou's daughter", exactly because none were involved with his murder.

I'm nitpicking here, but it was attempted murder, not an actual murder.

[Triple_R]

Perhaps I read more into Haruka's flashback sequence than I should have. It certainly seemed to me that Kanata was getting the cherished "Way to go, Champ!" treatment, while Haruka was being crudely cast down.

From my Canadian sensibilities, that makes me think of the classic "good daughter"/"bad daughter" conflict where one gets treated better than the other. But it sounds like something very different is at play here.


My apologies, kitten, if I'm not getting implications/hints that probably resonate loudly to people who played the game.

[DmonHiro]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Wow. So one slap proves mistreatment on par with (or even greater than!) several years of severe physical and verbal abuse.

Nobody is saying that Kanata had it easy, but don't you think it's a bit presumptive to assume that Kanata was abused exactly as much as Haruka was?


Might be abused?! What is with the "might" part? It's very clear that Haruka was severely abused. There's no "might" about it.

Why are people on this thread now trying to downplay the abuse Haruka received and/or exaggerate the abuse Kanata received?

Dude, notice that in the OP Kanata's back is FULL of bruising. Hell, at t he end of the episode, Kud saw Kanata step out of the shower, naked, and was horrified.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Perhaps I read more into Haruka's flashback sequence than I should have. It certainly seemed to me that Kanata was getting the cherished "Way to go, Champ!" treatment, while Haruka was being crudely cast down.

From my Canadian sensibilities, that makes me think of the classic "good daughter"/"bad daughter" conflict where one gets treated better than the other. But it sounds like something very different is at play here.

That's exactly why you need to factor the actual context and usual backstories of a given show. Applying your own culture will most likely fail when values and educations can be drastically different.

In general sense, "usual" classic asian family push their offspring for both the family members satisfaction and the child's own future. However, those who show no interest to anything but the glory of the family are numerous, even to this day (it sure exist with western family, but this is a cultural element that are much more numerous with eastern cultures, not only asian).
You would be surprised to find out the number of stories, real and fictions, portraying women as literal borrowed wombs, for such objective. Likewise, children are seen as stock to strengthen the bloodline, nothing more.

But back to LB, that point is self evident when they initially wanted to know who is whose daughter, even before trying to educate them. And when they couldn't have what they wanted, they basically used an arbitrary fallacy: Shou = Murderer => shame for the Saigusa => his daughter would be the same kind of people => by default, she should be inferior to the other guy's kid! Ergo, the first one being superior in scholarship would be "obviously" the legitimate child!

Even if education is the predominant factor of an individual growth and personality, they just used that archaic train of thought, so there you have it.

[Kyu Renjo]

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

Dude, notice that in the OP Kanata's back is FULL of bruising. Hell, at t he end of the episode, Kud saw Kanata step out of the shower, naked, and was horrified.

Yes, pretty much this. I watched the VN, yes, but the hint is just so much presented in anime. I mean... even without OP, bruised slapped face is really a sign that a BAD thing should be happened.

Spoiler:

This arc actually portray Kanata better than in VN Haruka arc, at least. It shows a more balanced side. I think it is based of some backstory in Kanata arc, maybe...

[kitten320]

Never played the game, everything I say is based purely on my speculations and how I see things.

Futaki is the family that abused Haruka so I see nothing in stopping them from abusing Kanata as well. They don't seem like a sane family and care only for their name and status.

Family expects her to be perfect and in order to be perfect in EVERYTHING it demands a lot of time and effort. To be honest it is impossible to be perfect in anything but I don't think they understand that.

And as I said Kanata got slapped for a tiny "slip of a tongue", for tiny imperfection in their eyes.

I never watched Hansaku Iroha so I have no idea who is the character or what her story and family status is. So the point is irrelevant to me.

Besides don't forget that we still have at least 1 more episode. Actually going by preview it seems to be the last one so if my speculations are correct, they'll be confirmed there.

And I would really recommend to re-watch Urd scene. It might not imply what I said but it sure tried to tell us something.
When Kanata entered the room, Urd hid under the covers. A reaction to the reason you give. I agree.
However, what was the purpose of getting surprised the other time? Actually the first time since the other reaction was just being uncomfortable and a bit scared. Second was clear surprise.
Kanata didn't say anything nor did she look at Urd. If Urd was feeling uncomfortable she would just keep observing from the covers with uncertain look. There was no need for her to get surprised unless she saw something. Creators also gave us a shot of what Urd was seeing. It is hard to see anything but I'm sure there are some clues.

My guess are lack of sleeves since I can't spot anything else.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Maybe I'm just overthinking this though

You're not the only one. While we can probably just take the who's-who at face value, we technically don't know for certain that Haruka was the one who made the first cake. I kind of like the ambiguity.

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

Am I the only one who noticed that in the OP Kanata's back is FULL of bruising? Hell, at t he end of the episode, Kud saw Kanata step out of the shower, naked, and was horrified.

Actually, having not played the game, I would never have gotten that out of that scene if it weren't for one (possibly irrelevant) observation: Several episodes ago, Haruka took a bath with Karugaya without any particular care for exposing family secrets. It's only when I put that together with the OP, the slap, AND Kud's expression that it occurred to me that Kanata is probably the girl in the OP. If not for that, I'd be arguing along with Triple R that you're reading too much into it.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Logically speaking, one would have the "right" to do that when they are going through the same kind of hardship. If you have a little idea how conservative and "traditional" old cast type family can act, and use that slap scene as the hint, you get the idea.

Maybe if Kanata really did receive similar treatment, Haruka didn't realize it because she assumed her abuse was for being The Unfavorite, when really it was more just the family's M.O. Come to think of it, Haruka acts out terribly, and Kanata is a pretty effective bully. Both of those are common in abused children.

We'll know soon enough.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

Actually, having not played the game, I would never have gotten that out of that scene if it weren't for one (possibly irrelevant) observation: Several episodes ago, Haruka took a bath with Karugaya without any particular care for exposing family secrets. It's only when I put that together with the OP, the slap, AND Kud's expression that it occurred to me that Kanata is probably the girl in the OP. If not for that, I'd be arguing along with Triple R that you're reading too much into it.

There are actually 2 additional points that favor the theory that it is Kanata:
1) in this episode, Haruka herself stated she was no longer subject to abuse when she went to that school.
Also, in her flashbacks, Haruka is only shown as a child, and never as a teenager.

2) The op was showing in an obvious fashion the usual "duality" between twins, by having Haruka and Kanata on screen, but in opposite positions. Then you have Haruka shown lonely, while followed with a untied long haired girl.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Perhaps I read more into Haruka's flashback sequence than I should have. It certainly seemed to me that Kanata was getting the cherished "Way to go, Champ!" treatment, while Haruka was being crudely cast down.

That's the problem, you are looking at things through her eyes. Haruka would never know what happens to Kanata behind closed doors.
All we have is to rely on tiny hints like slap and Urd's reaction as well as her Kanata's with Riki.

And just to make it clear again, I never played the game. Everything I said is based on what I saw and my speculations.
The reason as to why we might see things differently could be the following:
1) I duno about you but story and characters are very important factors to me. I take them very seriously especially when it comes to characters I like so I pay more attention to them.

2) Just as I mentioned before, Kanata strongly reminds me of myself. Actually Haruka should probably remind me more of myself since she was hiding all her hurt behind happy smile while Kanata seems to do it behind cold facade. I tend to use both.
This might be why I look into Kanata's character differently than you.



Oh! I only watched OP once and it was back in episode 1
Had to re-watch it and now that I've seen it, I feel like my words are closer to reality.

EDIT: OOOPPPSSSS! It looks like I messed up Kud's name everywhere! My bad!

[Triple_R]

Thanks to Madoka Magica's OP and ED, and all of their red herrings that led to pointless speculation, I no longer even try reading anything of plot significance into anime OPs and EDs. Perhaps that creates blind spots with this anime, in fairness.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

1) in this episode, Haruka herself stated she was no longer subject to abuse when she went to that school.

See, but this just raises two more questions.

For one, wouldn't that mean that when Haruka's acting out, Kanata is the only one that the family can punish for it? Why allow the Unfavorite to have so much freedom? Leading into the question that really bothers me:

Why would the family try to hurt her with the posters? If they were trying to punish her, couldn't they just stop paying for her schooling and residence, forcing her either back under their roof where she can't embarrass them, or else send her somewhere far away? I assume they're still her legal guardians, even if she's physically out of their reach now that she lives in residence, and isn't being groomed as the heiress.

[DmonHiro]

They couldn't do that because she is still tied to the family. Thus, having her drop out of school would be another black mark on their oh so precious prestige.