[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Used Can]

Regarding Bern, I think you can trust her, as long as you don't take what she says at face value - much like with statistics.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think Ryukishi has been trolling us with the time loop kakera lookalike scenario. Since almost all of his fans know Higurashi, he knew that everyone would watch Umineko and think "oh this is another time loop like in Higurashi", but where is it actually stated? Sure there are kakera mentioned in this game, but that's Bernkastel's power, where has it ever been stated that Beatrice has that power as well?

Well, in EP5 they (Battler, Bern and Lambda) did have to travel through kakeras to reach the scene with EVA solving the epitaph.

Anyway guys, something has been bothering me for a while. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed that, so far, the game - when it comes to refer to the people in Rokkenjima - has only worked with numbers. For example "no more than X people are in this island". Even in EP5, when everyone was gathered in the same room, what we got was "the number of people in this room is the number of people in this island". They could have said something like "other than these people, no one exists in this island." However, R07 has stuck himself to numbers.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Well, in EP5 they (Battler, Bern and Lambda) did have to travel through kakeras to reach the scene with EVA solving the epitaph.

Death in Higurashi sent you directly from the real world to the sea of kakera but in Umineko there is a meta-world stage between them. Instead of having to wander aimlessly like Rika did for over a hundred years Battler had Beatrice providing the best kakera for him to learn the truth.

Episode 5's kakera was setup by Lambda and Bern with no intention of helping Battler learn the truth. However, Battler was able to see the contrast between the games setup by Beato and the one setup by the lesbo witches so he was able to learn the truth.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Episode 5's kakera was setup by Lambda and Bern with no intention of helping Battler learn the truth.

I wonder if that's how it is. After all, Bern and Lambda were the ones who told Battler he was tackling the issue from the wrong perspective. That, and we know Beato allowed both of them for a reason (even if she did is subconsciously).

Not to mention that Erika's introduction proved that the mystery can be solved by human means, which Battler had failed to do in the previous 4 games.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I wonder if that's how it is. After all, Bern and Lambda were the ones who told Battler he was tackling the issue from the wrong perspective. That, and we know Beato allowed both of them for a reason (even if she did is subconsciously).

Not to mention that Erika's introduction proved that the mystery can be solved by human means, which Battler had failed to do in the previous 4 games.

But Erika didn't solve the mystery.

[Used Can]

I never said she did, what I meant to say was that she showed that the whole issue can be explained through human means.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Regarding Bern, I think you can trust her, as long as you don't take what she says at face value - much like with statistics.


Well, in EP5 they (Battler, Bern and Lambda) did have to travel through kakeras to reach the scene with EVA solving the epitaph.

Anyway guys, something has been bothering me for a while. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed that, so far, the game - when it comes to refer to the people in Rokkenjima - has only worked with numbers. For example "no more than X people are in this island". Even in EP5, when everyone was gathered in the same room, what we got was "the number of people in this room is the number of people in this island". They could have said something like "other than these people, no one exists in this island." However, R07 has stuck himself to numbers.

But that's because

Spoiler:

It would invalidate Beato's existence.

And I still think she's disguising as someone.

Spoiler for EP4 spoilers:

]Since, yknow... Piece-Battler acknowledged in EP4 that yes, in fact, a crazy chick named Beatrice exists on the island, sounds like nobody he can recall, looks just like the witch in the portrait, and managed to disappear before he got into the mansion to do some detective work. He mentioned it in the first person, and I trust the first-person perspectives of the characters for the most part.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I never said she did, what I meant to say was that she showed that the whole issue can be explained through human means.

She didn't resolve the issue of the bodies going missing. Even if it's impossible to prove Natsuhi didn't commit the murders (which would satisfy "demonstrating it was possible through human means"), where'd they go? With Kinzo dead, there's no one to have moved them (ignoring for a moment the red text toward the end that throws a wrench into even that).

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Beatrice had nothing to do with the creation of episode 5's game board yet the mystery novel rules still apply.

This is false. It doesn't matter if Lambda is the new gamemaster this is still Beatrice's world, and Beatrice's rules are still valid. This has been said several times and I don't think it should be doubted. Bernkastel said no matter where they are it's Beatrice's world and she will listen to everything they said. Lambda uses the red truth but it has always been said that Beatrice set the rules about that red truth. If she's still bound to the red truth rules and the knox rules it means she's not free to do whatever she wants, if she's not free to do whatever she wants it means she's still bound to Beatrice's rules. Else the witch of certainty without doubt would use any means at her disposal to win.

Originally Posted by Used Can

Well, in EP5 they (Battler, Bern and Lambda) did have to travel through kakeras to reach the scene with EVA solving the epitaph.

Yeah, but that's Bernkastel.

Originally Posted by Ssol

Episode 5's kakera was setup by Lambda and Bern with no intention of helping Battler learn the truth. However, Battler was able to see the contrast between the games setup by Beato and the one setup by the lesbo witches so he was able to learn the truth.

At this point I have a question. If you really think that Beatrice can not only travel through kakera but set them up as she see fit, how exactly is she different from Bernkastel? Why isn't she a voyager witch? What kind of power Bernkastel posses that Beatrice doesn't? According to you, Beatrice is like Bernkastel but with the power endless in addition. She's like a superbernkastel!

[luckyssol]

You could be right but I could be right as well. I think Chronotrig's explanation is probably better than both of our opinions though.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

This is false. It doesn't matter if Lambda is the new gamemaster this is still Beatrice's world, and Beatrice's rules are still valid. This has been said several times and I don't think it should be doubted. Bernkastel said no matter where they are it's Beatrice's world and she will listen to everything they said. Lambda uses the red truth but it has always been said that Beatrice set the rules about that red truth. If she's still bound to the red truth rules and the knox rules it means she's not free to do whatever she wants, if she's not free to do whatever she wants it means she's still bound to Beatrice's rules. Else the witch of certainty without doubt would use any means at her disposal to win.



Yeah, but that's Bernkastel.



At this point I have a question. If you really think that Beatrice can not only travel through kakera but set them up as she see fit, how exactly is she different from Bernkastel? Why isn't she a voyager witch? What kind of power Bernkastel posses that Beatrice doesn't? According to you, Beatrice is like Bernkastel but with the power endless in addition. She's like a superbernkastel!

Spoiler:

Maybe she really is a Creator Witch? She just had to borrow MARIA's power or something.

[Jan-Poo]

However Chronotrig theory doesn't explain how is it possible to make pieces act to your own will, the gamemaster isn't simply a narrator, the gamemaster isn't just an observer that tells the story he sees, the gamemaster creates the story.

It also doesn't explain why Ronove Virgilia and Beatrice can be so indifferent to real people's death and suffering, and more than anything, it doesn't explain why Battler suddenly sides with them considering how he dislikes Bernkastel.

@workwork

Well the difference between Beatrice and Maria is that Beatrice can only use existing stuff to create her stories. Just take as example RPG maker. In the case of Beatrice she uses the existing graphics to create her own story. Maria instead can create new graphics and elements for the game, however she's unable to create a story.

Now that you make me think about that, the siestas are in fact Maria's creation, however it's Beatrice that put them in the story.

[Ithekro]

Beatrice/Battler the Giant Rock to Lambda's Super Paper and Bern's Scissors.

[Renall]

You seem to be assuming the pieces actually behave according to Beatrice's will, and that she's not just selectively displaying things in certain ways and making up others. The idea of mind control was brought up in ep3 and Battler's discovery more or less suggested that the witch side can't actually change people's motives, only interpret them and try to present them as something they may or may not be.

Not unlike what Erika does with Natsuhi's diary.

[desirebluesky]

i think it's either stated or strongly hited that Beatrice can't travel between kakera, i think you could interpret things Lambda sais in EP2-3 as her borrowing her power for the sake of the game.

and one thing that bugs me about the teaparty: did Battler just slipped into the sea of kakera on his own? (just before the yakusou scene when dir plays)
it kinda makes him a voyager witch too.

[kite11]

Voyagers can travel to different universes (If you believe that Bern and 34 are from higurashi) and while normal witches with a certain amount of power can travel, they lose their power in the new world (I think...) Voyagers don't, but they are restricted by the rules of the world they go to, which is why 34 has to follow the red text rule.

Kakera controlling seem to be a witch ability. And the witches can "bookmark" kakera in order to find them later, such as when EVA's answer is shown and the kakera with the truth. Kakera are different worlds but not different universes. (34 would never let Beato get a kakera that showed the truth or let her sneak it out or bookmark it)

Rika was a normal human, so she just randomly went to another kakera. And she did have a bit of a meta world with Bern when the 3 rules were introduced.

I agree with the theory Beato can only use kakera available, and change them a little, possibly using Maria's power.

It would also explain because a third party (MARIA) created the siestas, why Bern took them over as her pieces. What happened to MARIA anyways?

And the idea of Beato, Ronove, and Virgilia not caring about the deaths of the game pieces fits the "you don't cry when you lose a piece in chess" mind set. There have been a few instances where some kindness has been shown such as the 1st twilight of game 3 and with Gaap giving the dead their dignity in game 5. Beato... the "she's only acting" works here... And she does tone down a little...

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

i think it's either stated or strongly hited that Beatrice can't travel between kakera, i think you could interpret things Lambda sais in EP2-3 as her borrowing her power for the sake of the game.

and one thing that bugs me about the teaparty: did Battler just slipped into the sea of kakera on his own? (just before the yakusou scene when dir plays)
it kinda makes him a voyager witch too.

Spoiler:

Of course. Battler himself learned how to be a witch(Or Magician in his case)

What happened to MARIA anyways?

Spoiler:

Beato banished MARIA from the Golden Land, so she's probably in Heaven or something now.

[kite11]

Thanks, I knew she was banished, but wasn't really clear where she went after that... I wouldn't be surprised if she is just hiding...

[desirebluesky]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Spoiler:

Of course. Battler himself learned how to be a witch(Or Magician in his case)

i actualy meant him precisely beieng a voyager sorceror. nothing about it was ever mentioned in the game (unless missed it ), but if he is it's kinda important isn't it?

[kite11]

I think there is a huge difference in the power level... (Insert 9000 joke here) Seriously, If he was a voyager, he could go to other universes, but what interest does other universes have for Battler?

It's the same reasoning that Voyagers do not want to become creators... kinda...

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

However Chronotrig theory doesn't explain how is it possible to make pieces act to your own will, the gamemaster isn't simply a narrator, the gamemaster isn't just an observer that tells the story he sees, the gamemaster creates the story.

It also doesn't explain why Ronove Virgilia and Beatrice can be so indifferent to real people's death and suffering, and more than anything, it doesn't explain why Battler suddenly sides with them considering how he dislikes Bernkastel.

The game master isn't the narrator. The "narrator" is the viewpoint that we see the world through. I use "narrator" to describe the viewpoint we see the story by, not the person who created the story (who would be the author). However, the game master is able to show things to the narrator through the eyes and/or statements of certain people.

There are 2 ways to explain the characters' indifference. One is that they are falsehoods themselves. It's never been stated in red that they exist in the meta world.

The other is that, assuming a "final world" will be chosen in the end, the result of each game leading up to that doesn't matter (possibly). If you kill someone and then go back in time and stop yourself killing them, is there a crime committed in the final timeline? It seems as though this world has been repeating dozens if not hundreds of times. If so, their actions are perfectly reasonable.