Macross Frontier (Macross 25) general discussion [No Spoilers]

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, I would have wished that Ghostlightning would have addressed the actual happenings in the episodes more in the summaries which veered off on more esoteric ( yet interesting! ) tangents. But it was a very interesting read nonetheless. The very long comments on the latter episodes very especially elucidating.

And how should I have known about them, if not from here? It's not as if such knowledge arrives per osmosis or somesuch.



Well, we are a bit stuck on the re-watching front, since nobody seems to be expressing much enthusiasm for organizing it. I will admit that I was really more hoping to re-watch Frontier, since my emotional connection to the other series is somewhat dulled by the passage of time and, y'know, having watched it so many times before. Hell, I got all excited reading the excellent comments in Ghostlightnings blogposts and spent about the last three or four hours reading through them. Of course it helps that they re-validate many of my own views of the show.

All in all, I am beginning to ask myself if we shouldn't simply do a re-watch of Macross Frontier. I have a feeling it'd get more enthusiasm that going for all of Macross canon. I could be projecting, of course.

I've got time on my hands so I'll re-watch it as well before the movie comes out

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, I would have wished that Ghostlightning would have addressed the actual happenings in the episodes more in the summaries which veered off on more esoteric ( yet interesting! ) tangents. But it was a very interesting read nonetheless. The very long comments on the latter episodes very especially elucidating.

Having followed peoples' reactions to the series across blogs and forums, I'd say that there's already a fair amount of opinions out there on the events of the series themselves. ghostlightning's commentary is unique in the sense that it addresses underlying themes and ideas in the series. I feel more compelled to comment on discussions involving these more "esoteric" topics, simply because they feel fresh and original.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

And how should I have known about them, if not from here? It's not as if such knowledge arrives per osmosis or somesuch.

Everything on irc usually diffuses here eventually. If there was a solvent involved, I suppose you could call it osmosis.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, we are a bit stuck on the re-watching front, since nobody seems to be expressing much enthusiasm for organizing it. I will admit that I was really more hoping to re-watch Frontier, since my emotional connection to the other series is somewhat dulled by the passage of time and, y'know, having watched it so many times before. Hell, I got all excited reading the excellent comments in Ghostlightnings blogposts and spent about the last three or four hours reading through them. Of course it helps that they re-validate many of my own views of the show.

I suppose you could always ask around on MW. You'd have to refrain from bringing up shipping relationships, though. Who knows? Perhaps technical discussions on mecha might turn out to be your cup of tea.

If you're ever looking for more commentary on MF, just grab your nearest anime blog aggregator and flip through the entries on MF. It's interesting to see how people's views on the series changed as the series progressed.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

All in all, I am beginning to ask myself if we shouldn't simply do a re-watch of Macross Frontier. I have a feeling it'd get more enthusiasm that going for all of Macross canon. I could be projecting, of course.

SDFM might go well with MF, if only to show how the core themes in the series have evolved over time. At present, though, I'd only really be willing to commit to watching MF, simply because I once made a promise to write-up my thoughts on it. Then too, it would probably have to be after September starts.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

If you're ever looking for more commentary on MF, just grab your nearest anime blog aggregator and flip through the entries on MF. It's interesting to see how people's views on the series changed as the series progressed.

That is an interesting thing to do, especially with blogs where the series was blogged during it airing, its very interesting to read the sometimes 180 degree difference in opinion that bloggers had at the beginning of the series compared to the end. Or even just read general MF forums.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

That is an interesting thing to do, especially with blogs where the series was blogged during it airing, its very interesting to read the sometimes 180 degree difference in opinion that bloggers had at the beginning of the series compared to the end. Or even just read general MF forums.

It's pretty interesting because they almost always follow the same trains of thought.

The Blog was very interesting, but the comments were the most interesting. The Blog didn't really go into much depth and didn't touch much on the actual material, lots of general observations here and there, and knowledge of episodes is definitely needed before (But why would you read the blog if you didn't watch the episode?(Browsing)).

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

It's pretty interesting because they almost always follow the same trains of thought.

The Blog was very interesting, but the comments were the most interesting. The Blog didn't really go into much depth and didn't touch much on the actual material, lots of general observations here and there, and knowledge of episodes is definitely needed before (But why would you read the blog if you didn't watch the episode?(Browsing)).

For me what makes ghostlightining's blog so interesting is more because of his comparisons and the fact that he doesn't focus on the things that most of the bloggers did.

I was kinda referring to Grace and exactly how many bloggers saw it coming.

[Shiroth]

I'll fine with rewatching Macross Frontier. Wonder if the mods would let us have a thread though..

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Having followed peoples' reactions to the series across blogs and forums, I'd say that there's already a fair amount of opinions out there on the events of the series themselves. ghostlightning's commentary is unique in the sense that it addresses underlying themes and ideas in the series. I feel more compelled to comment on discussions involving these more "esoteric" topics, simply because they feel fresh and original.

Heh, I can understand that well. Although I still get a good thrill out of intelligent discussion about the romance. I guess it's because I like the characters so much, the show so much and because it is unresolved ( or rather unfinished ). Seemingly a good combination for keeping interest.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Everything on irc usually diffuses here eventually. If there was a solvent involved, I suppose you could call it osmosis.

That makes me a bit sad to not have been on IRC very often... but I just don't have that much time. I already have a lot of hobbies, adding more is not a good idea.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I suppose you could always ask around on MW. You'd have to refrain from bringing up shipping relationships, though. Who knows? Perhaps technical discussions on mecha might turn out to be your cup of tea.

Not really, no. And some people on MW react with too much hostility once one really gets into the character stuff, especially the romances.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

If you're ever looking for more commentary on MF, just grab your nearest anime blog aggregator and flip through the entries on MF. It's interesting to see how people's views on the series changed as the series progressed.

True. I should do that, although I'd really like to see the show again and discuss it with the people I already like.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

SDFM might go well with MF, if only to show how the core themes in the series have evolved over time. At present, though, I'd only really be willing to commit to watching MF, simply because I once made a promise to write-up my thoughts on it. Then too, it would probably have to be after September starts.

Well, I think we can wait until then.

Originally Posted by Shiroth

I'll fine with rewatching Macross Frontier. Wonder if the mods would let us have a thread though..

I think so. Aren't there "Let's re-watch series X together" threads on other forums here?

[BetoJR]

I'm fine with it, as well. Not many people seemed all that interested in starting from the first one, right?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I'm fine with it, as well. Not many people seemed all that interested in starting from the first one, right?

It was lacking some enthusiasm, yeah.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Not really, no. And some people on MW react with too much hostility once one really gets into the character stuff, especially the romances.

Now, now...be fair. MW has been a relatively calm board for the last few years, and it's good that way (although you might have liked it better in the wild'n'wooly early days) and it remained calm until some Sheryl enthusiasts from here started a few flame wars there.

It's not really "hostility" as much as it is "Oh crikey, not again..." The same thing happens any time someone starts an "I hate Macross 7" or "What happened to the Megaroad-01?" thread.

Still, I guess a good ending came out of it...if some of the members here hadn't been so obnoxious, Final Vegeta never would've written his anti-Ohnogi rant, and we might STILL be thinking that the infamous "liner notes" were factual.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I'm fine with it, as well. Not many people seemed all that interested in starting from the first one, right?

I'd rather do that, though more people seem interested in just rewatching Fronter.

Though i'm perfectly fine with that.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Now, now...be fair. MW has been a relatively calm board for the last few years, and it's good that way (although you might have liked it better in the wild'n'wooly early days) and it remained calm until some Sheryl enthusiasts from here started a few flame wars there.

It's not really "hostility" as much as it is "Oh crikey, not again..." The same thing happens any time someone starts an "I hate Macross 7" or "What happened to the Megaroad-01?" thread.

Still, I guess a good ending came out of it...if some of the members here hadn't been so obnoxious, Final Vegeta never would've written his anti-Ohnogi rant, and we might STILL be thinking that the infamous "liner notes" were factual.

Yeah, I know that some of us were a bit rowdy over there, but Final Vegeta and Mercurial Morpheus still really get nasty whenever someone mentions AnimeSuki. Not to mention that people who are really into the relationships of Macross clearly are looked down upon on MW, at least that is the feeling I ever have gotten when I witnessed any conversation about the theme. It's more than a bit off-turning, so I don't really know who else but you would be interested in re-watching the episodes and discussing them in their entirety.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

That is an interesting thing to do, especially with blogs where the series was blogged during it airing, its very interesting to read the sometimes 180 degree difference in opinion that bloggers had at the beginning of the series compared to the end. Or even just read general MF forums.

With the forums it's a bit more difficult to do, simply because discussions tend not to be so neatly categorized. Even while remembering details about some of these discussions, I still find it difficult to track some of them down.

There are a few gems in there, though, like the inspiration for the term skullfairy: you'll never guess where it came from! But then again, perhaps you'd be better off not knowing.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Heh, I can understand that well. Although I still get a good thrill out of intelligent discussion about the romance. I guess it's because I like the characters so much, the show so much and because it is unresolved ( or rather unfinished ). Seemingly a good combination for keeping interest.

Oh, I do too, magnus. But I've been finding more inspiration in tackling the characters from the perspectives of some of these themes. Take how SDFM and MF address the pop idol phenomenon, as an example - how does society's changing attitudes towards celebrity (and more broadly, our awareness of commercialism) influence our reception of the idols in MF, as opposed to Minmay in SDFM? I've been playing around with an idea since I read ghostlightning's episode 23 post three weeks ago, but I'm still trying to articulate it.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

That makes me a bit sad to not have been on IRC very often... but I just don't have that much time. I already have a lot of hobbies, adding more is not a good idea.

The secret to irc is in idling. The only challenge is in remembering to log on, at which point you can run off and do other things while cheesie the automated conversation generators produce text for you to read.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I think so. Aren't there "Let's re-watch series X together" threads on other forums here?

The problem is that forums don't work in real time. Again, I think irc is more suitable for this discussion, unless you wanted to summarize your feelings about a particular episode in one of the existing episode threads.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Now, now...be fair. MW has been a relatively calm board for the last few years, and it's good that way (although you might have liked it better in the wild'n'wooly early days) and it remained calm until some Sheryl enthusiasts from here started a few flame wars there.

I think it's a fair comment, given what I've read in the past.

More broadly, the problem is that the word "shipping" automatically takes on a pejorative connotation when used in certain circles, as do the groups of people that engage in it. Which is odd, since you can end up having a heated discussion on pretty much any topic, be it relationships or spaceships. It really just comes down to emotional maturity and whether you're capable of disengaging yourself from an argument that you don't want to have.

While I can see how anti-shipping sentiment can reactively develop, it can be stifling when trying to discuss a franchise like Macross where concepts like love and relationships are central to the plot. It would be a bit like trying to discuss a scene from a Gundam series with someone moaning in the background "Ugh, not another discussion about mecha!" every time you referred to something remotely mechanical.

I wouldn't trust those Sheryl enthusiasts if I were you. They're always running around telling people that they're on drugs or that they have no concept of adult relationships. All two of them, that is.

(Anyone who spends more time talking about their own awesomeness than they do about Sheryl's is a self-shipper, not a Sheryl-shipper. Be careful with the distinction.)

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Still, I guess a good ending came out of it...if some of the members here hadn't been so obnoxious, Final Vegeta never would've written his anti-Ohnogi rant, and we might STILL be thinking that the infamous "liner notes" were factual.

I'm fairly certain that FV exercised a fair amount of independence and free will in the writing of that piece. One of his central points was that the "translations" confirmed what he 'knew' all along: that Sheryl was a throwaway side character who was originally destined to die on Galia-4, but was repurposed into a Mary-Sue heroine and ended up stealing Ranka's spotlight as the real protagonist. If that fiasco proved anything, it was only that you can always find people who are willing to twist information, be it valid or not, to fit with what they want to believe, irrespective of which characters they support or what forums they hail from.

Of course, I've pointed this out before, in his thread as well.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

With the forums it's a bit more difficult to do, simply because discussions tend not to be so neatly categorized. Even while remembering details about some of these discussions, I still find it difficult to track some of them down.

There are a few gems in there, though, like the inspiration for the term skullfairy: you'll never guess where it came from! But then again, perhaps you'd be better off not knowing.

It suddenly appeared one day, I remember being a bit flabbergasted by it for a short while.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Oh, I do too, magnus. But I've been finding more inspiration in tackling the characters from the perspectives of some of these themes. Take how SDFM and MF address the pop idol phenomenon, as an example - how does society's changing attitudes towards celebrity (and more broadly, our awareness of commercialism) influence our reception of the idols in MF, as opposed to Minmay in SDFM? I've been playing around with an idea since I read ghostlightning's episode 23 post three weeks ago, but I'm still trying to articulate it.

I guess my problem from approaching the show from that side is that for me it take a bit away from identifying with the characters, since this approach is more reducing for them, making them bit players in an overall theme.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

The secret to irc is in idling. The only challenge is in remembering to log on, at which point you can run off and do other things while cheesie the automated conversation generators produce text for you to read.

True enough. I guess I should try it one day again.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

The problem is that forums don't work in real time. Again, I think irc is more suitable for this discussion, unless you wanted to summarize your feelings about a particular episode in one of the existing episode threads.

True, IRC would give a bit more immanence to the discussion, but I'd rather see the discussion made a bit more permanent by having it on these forums. Also, IRC dialogue lends itself to being less thought-out and extensive, since it is in realtime. It's no real fun for me to write a large dissertation on an observation I just had, just to notice that the discussion already moved on to another topic.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yeah, I know that some of us were a bit rowdy over there, but Final Vegeta and Mercurial Morpheus still really get nasty whenever someone mentions AnimeSuki. Not to mention that people who are really into the relationships of Macross clearly are looked down upon on MW, at least that is the feeling I ever have gotten when I witnessed any conversation about the theme. It's more than a bit off-turning, so I don't really know who else but you would be interested in re-watching the episodes and discussing them in their entirety.

Magnus, you disappoint me! I was expecting a huge wall of text explaining why I'm wrong.

Anyway, yeah, Mercurial Morpheus is still around, but I haven't seen Final Vegeta in over a year. The last I saw of him, he was complaining that CLEARLY Ohnogi was working on the movie, and it was going to suck because of it. When I shot him a PM explaining that I didn't think Ohnogi had anything to do with the series, he sent me a few pages worth of assertions that the "liner notes" were true. That more than anything else prompted me to "go public" with the info I had, even though we hadn't received the notorious issue of Famitsu yet.

He hasn't been around since.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I think it's a fair comment, given what I've read in the past.

More broadly, the problem is that the word "shipping" automatically takes on a pejorative connotation when used in certain circles, as do the groups of people that engage in it. Which is odd, since you can end up having a heated discussion on pretty much any topic, be it relationships or spaceships. It really just comes down to emotional maturity and whether you're capable of disengaging yourself from an argument that you don't want to have.

While I can see how anti-shipping sentiment can reactively develop, it can be stifling when trying to discuss a franchise like Macross where concepts like love and relationships are central to the plot. It would be a bit like trying to discuss a scene from a Gundam series with someone moaning in the background "Ugh, not another discussion about mecha!" every time you referred to something remotely mechanical.

I'll be frank here, and risk stepping on some toes (and apologize in advance: "sorry"): I find the constant minutiae-filled mecha talk at MW just as wearying as find Ranka-hate (or Macross7-hate or Frontier-hate, for that matter). I know it's fun to pretend like something like Macross is "real," and try to fill in the gaps, but I think it's a silly, pointless exercise. It's fiction, and often hastily-constructed fiction; there are flaws and contradictions galore. But the same goes for the characters...for every scene where there's a spectacular character moment (I'm thinking of Sheryl singing "Diamond Crevasse" in the shelter), there are tons of scenes where the writing seems to be on autopilot ("I'm Sheryl! Sheryl Nome!").

(If you read the comics (primarily "Macross F: Secret Visions" in Macross Ace, which is apparently plotted by Frontier's scriptwriter, Hiroyuki Yoshino), the problem gets worse: all the growth is thrown out the window and characters are just static caricatures of themselves...Sheryl is confident and aloof (but kind), Ranka is the eternal newbie, Alto is grumpy and stand-offish, Michael is suave and teasing. Issue after issue after issue.)

Anyway, the problem is always the same, whether you're talking about mecha or characters or story: Macross, while very good, simply can't stand up to the kind of scrutiny fans put it under; few works could, really. Homer, Dante, Shakespeare, Cervantes, yeah. An anime produced for television? No.

Writing a good analysis takes training and discipline, and as much as I enjoy reading some analyses of the show, they usually tell me more about the writer of the article than they do about the show in question.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I wouldn't trust those Sheryl enthusiasts if I were you. They're always running around telling people that they're on drugs or that they have no concept of adult relationships. All two of them, that is.

(Anyone who spends more time talking about their own awesomeness than they do about Sheryl's is a self-shipper, not a Sheryl-shipper. Be careful with the distinction.)

Oh? I thought said members were well-respected here. Am I mistaken?

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I'm fairly certain that FV exercised a fair amount of independence and free will in the writing of that piece. One of his central points was that the "translations" confirmed what he 'knew' all along: that Sheryl was a throwaway side character who was originally destined to die on Galia-4, but was repurposed into a Mary-Sue heroine and ended up stealing Ranka's spotlight as the real protagonist. If that fiasco proved anything, it was only that you can always find people who are willing to twist information, be it valid or not, to fit with what they want to believe, irrespective of which characters they support or what forums they hail from.

Of course, I've pointed this out before, in his thread as well.

My point exactly.

[raile]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

There are a few gems in there, though, like the inspiration for the term skullfairy: you'll never guess where it came from! But then again, perhaps you'd be better off not knowing.

Must not know...must not kno----MAMA, please tell me!!
(Did it come from a cross-dressing origin? D: )

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Magnus, you disappoint me! I was expecting a huge wall of text explaining why I'm wrong.

Meh, I do those mostly for discussion about Sheryl and rebuttals about Ranka.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Anyway, yeah, Mercurial Morpheus is still around, but I haven't seen Final Vegeta in over a year. The last I saw of him, he was complaining that CLEARLY Ohnogi was working on the movie, and it was going to suck because of it. When I shot him a PM explaining that I didn't think Ohnogi had anything to do with the series, he sent me a few pages worth of assertions that the "liner notes" were true. That more than anything else prompted me to "go public" with the info I had, even though we hadn't received the notorious issue of Famitsu yet.

He hasn't been around since.

He'll surely re-appear to diss the second movie, if it doesn't end a way he likes.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I'll be frank here, and risk stepping on some toes (and apologize in advance: "sorry"): I find the constant minutiae-filled mecha talk at MW just as wearying as find Ranka-hate (or Macross7-hate or Frontier-hate, for that matter). I know it's fun to pretend like something like Macross is "real," and try to fill in the gaps, but I think it's a silly, pointless exercise. It's fiction, and often hastily-constructed fiction; there are flaws and contradictions galore. But the same goes for the characters...for every scene where there's a spectacular character moment (I'm thinking of Sheryl singing "Diamond Crevasse" in the shelter), there are tons of scenes where the writing seems to be on autopilot ("I'm Sheryl! Sheryl Nome!").

How is the writing on autopilot for that? It's a signature line for Sheryl, one she later ( unsuccessfully ) uses to prop herself up, when things go bad for her.

And of course Macross Frontier ain't exactly The Lord of the Rings or War and Peace, but it has some very good moments and the rest is well done. Excepting episode eight animation, that is, and the last episode has multiple storytelling failures.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

(If you read the comics (primarily "Macross F: Secret Visions" in Macross Ace, which is apparently plotted by Frontier's scriptwriter, Hiroyuki Yoshino), the problem gets worse: all the growth is thrown out the window and characters are just static caricatures of themselves...Sheryl is confident and aloof (but kind), Ranka is the eternal newbie, Alto is grumpy and stand-offish, Michael is suave and teasing. Issue after issue after issue.)

I guess the problem for us is that most of us don't have that perspective, as most of us don't speak Japanese nor have access to the comics. Since nobody translates and posts them ( hint hint ^^ ). And those comics are a separate continuity ( if they even have continuity ) from the series.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Anyway, the problem is always the same, whether you're talking about mecha or characters or story: Macross, while very good, simply can't stand up to the kind of scrutiny fans put it under; few works could, really. Homer, Dante, Shakespeare, Cervantes, yeah. An anime produced for television? No.

Sure, but who is comparing MF to Shakesspeare? MF doesn't have bloody emo toerags like Hamlet, after all.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Oh? I thought said members were well-respected here. Am I mistaken?

I think Swampy is making some obscure IRC in-joke here... I guess.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Meh, I do those mostly for discussion about Sheryl and rebuttals about Ranka.

Awww...now you've gone and broken my heart...

Originally Posted by magnuskn

How is the writing on autopilot for that? It's a signature line for Sheryl, one she later ( unsuccessfully ) uses to prop herself up, when things go bad for her.

And the line sometimes gets used effectively, sometimes less so.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I guess the problem for us is that most of us don't have that perspective, as most of us don't speak Japanese nor have access to the comics. Since nobody translates and posts them ( hint hint ^^ ). And those comics are a separate continuity ( if they even have continuity ) from the series.

Who said they're a separate continuity? It certainly doesn't say that in the comics themselves... But yeah, none of them seem to have continuity much on their minds.

And my translation plate is already overstuffed with some VERY GOOD stuff (some of which is taking a lot longer than I expected). Currently, translation work is very difficult for me, since my Japanese level isn't even close to fluent.

But tell ya what...the first volumes of "Macross F: Secret Visions" and "SMS Tales" are coming out on September 25. If you buy them, I'll send you a short summary of the stories, which should tide you over until I (or someone else) does a full translation.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Sure, but who is comparing MF to Shakesspeare?

Pretty much anyone who writes an in-depth analysis of the characters, expecting them to have the same depth and richness of Shakepeare's.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Awww...now you've gone and broken my heart...

What, you want me to badmouth people I don't like on MF extensively?

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

And the line sometimes gets used effectively, sometimes less so.

Which were places where it wasn't used effectively for you?

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Who said they're a separate continuity? It certainly doesn't say that in the comics themselves... But yeah, none of them seem to have continuity much on their minds.

I'd be surprised if anything outside of the series, novels and some of the side-material from the audiodramas were placed in-continuity. But that may be my western thinking that all needs to fit together.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

And my translation plate is already overstuffed with some VERY GOOD stuff (some of which is taking a lot longer than I expected). Currently, translation work is very difficult for me, since my Japanese level isn't even close to fluent.

We don't need perfect grammar, y'know. At least for stuff which is interesting and people just want to see what it's about. Like when Raile posts a cartoon in the image thread which is completely in Japanese, people ask what it's saying and nobody who does have the priviledge of speaking Japanese will even post a short summary. <sigh>

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

But tell ya what...the first volumes of "Macross F: Secret Visions" and "SMS Tales" are coming out on September 25. If you buy them, I'll send you a short summary of the stories, which should tide you over until I (or someone else) does a full translation.

I really don't want to buy stuff which I cannot even read unless someone else animates himself to translating it. Not even to mention that my budget is already very full with other important non-MF stuff for the next months. Like new trousers. ^^

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Pretty much anyone who writes an in-depth analysis of the characters, expecting them to have the same depth and richness of Shakepeare's.

You gotta point out those people to me sometime. I'd bet they'd have fascinating stuff to discuss about the show.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by raile

Must not know...must not kno----MAMA, please tell me!!
(Did it come from a cross-dressing origin? D: )

Let's just say that it all started in the episode 15 thread at around page 8 when someone decided to refer to Sheryl exclusively using either "Fairy 9" or the dehumanizing pronoun "it". Banter ensued, and Skull 4 was eventually dragged in the mix to give her company. There's a bit of it in page 11 of the character thread as well (I'm using the default settings for displaying threads).

Naturally, we ended up reclaiming the term for use in our own nefarious plans.

I'm unclear on the exact details of how the name was finally proposed and who suggested it, but hopefully someone still has their irc logs from around that time. Good times, though.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

True, IRC would give a bit more immanence to the discussion, but I'd rather see the discussion made a bit more permanent by having it on these forums. Also, IRC dialogue lends itself to being less thought-out and extensive, since it is in realtime. It's no real fun for me to write a large dissertation on an observation I just had, just to notice that the discussion already moved on to another topic.

Funny, I have the exact opposite problem. I'm terribly slow in responding to forum discussions because I'm a compulsive rewriter. By the time I finally get around to finishing my post, the conversation has grown by a few pages.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I'll be frank here, and risk stepping on some toes (and apologize in advance: "sorry"): I find the constant minutiae-filled mecha talk at MW just as wearying as find Ranka-hate (or Macross7-hate or Frontier-hate, for that matter). I know it's fun to pretend like something like Macross is "real," and try to fill in the gaps, but I think it's a silly, pointless exercise. It's fiction, and often hastily-constructed fiction; there are flaws and contradictions galore. But the same goes for the characters...for every scene where there's a spectacular character moment (I'm thinking of Sheryl singing "Diamond Crevasse" in the shelter), there are tons of scenes where the writing seems to be on autopilot ("I'm Sheryl! Sheryl Nome!").

People automatically fill in the gaps when they engage with fiction. Authors can create a framework within which a scene can be interpreted, but it's the readers/audience that breathes life into it with their imagination.

Contradictions are a consequence of complexity. The less details that you add to a story, the less likely that you are to conflict with something that you previously wrote. They're also the result of ongoing, evolving storylines created by multiple writers. This has nothing to do with quality. Take Mary Shelley's Frankenstein as an example: there were substantial changes made between the original, limited run of the novel and the book's second edition (which is the version that most people end up reading, if they do). That doesn't seem all that far removed from the questions of today regarding canon and retconning.

I think that "character development" is a subjective term. It's just a question of which scenes strike you as significant and which ones you dismiss as being unimportant. To you, perhaps, the phrase "I'm Sheryl Nome!" is a static phrase, but to me, its use reveals different sides to Sheryl similar to the way in which variations in inflection can change the meaning of a sentence.

Am I reading too much into things? Certainly. But bear in mind that there's only as much meaning to a story as you choose to glean from it. If a story lacks depth, it's not for want of a better writer - it's for want of a better reader.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

(If you read the comics (primarily "Macross F: Secret Visions" in Macross Ace, which is apparently plotted by Frontier's scriptwriter, Hiroyuki Yoshino), the problem gets worse: all the growth is thrown out the window and characters are just static caricatures of themselves...Sheryl is confident and aloof (but kind), Ranka is the eternal newbie, Alto is grumpy and stand-offish, Michael is suave and teasing. Issue after issue after issue.)

The problem that I see is that if any of the characters changed significantly over the course of the publication, they would become unrecognizable to the broader audience when presented in other media formats. The value in this sort of work is that it gives us more memories of the characters whom we love. It's a bit like publishing a character's birthday: why on earth would anyone need to know such a thing? But fans like this sort of thing simply because it adds to the evolving snapshot that you're forming in your mind of the characters and their "lives".

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Anyway, the problem is always the same, whether you're talking about mecha or characters or story: Macross, while very good, simply can't stand up to the kind of scrutiny fans put it under; few works could, really. Homer, Dante, Shakespeare, Cervantes, yeah. An anime produced for television? No.

I remember coming across an academic essay on the "monstrous-feminine" that discussed gender boundaries in the movie "Alien" (and more broadly, within sci-fi) that struck me as more insightful than anything that I've seen written on the subject of Shakespeare. You could probably extend some of those ideas to Frontier, as well.

While I love the "classics", I'm not a big fan of the concept of "high art" and the class and educational barriers that the term invokes. If you like a fictional work, why hold back from exploring it?

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Writing a good analysis takes training and discipline, and as much as I enjoy reading some analyses of the show, they usually tell me more about the writer of the article than they do about the show in question.

That's because the reader writes the story.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Oh? I thought said members were well-respected here. Am I mistaken?

Oh, they're well respected here. I still can't quite tell if you're speaking as a denizen of "here" or "there" at any given moment.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I think Swampy is making some obscure IRC in-joke here... I guess.

It's a reference to an ancient feud. Do a search of Gubaba's early posts here and you'll be able to piece it together.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Sure, but who is comparing MF to Shakespeare?

Er... Oops?

/exeunt, pursued by a bear