Forum reorganization (Was: New "CR" links)

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by einhorn303

I feel CrunchyRoll is a bit different from those examples in that:

1. Technically, R1 DVD's are just as region restricted as CR.
2. Unlike a TV broadcast, you can rewatch CR shows at any time.

I think the point is not that it has regional restrictions, but that you can have a personal copy in the form of a DVD. You can use it on TV's (without needing a computer to connect to it) and you can use it at any time without the internet. As far as your second point, with a DVR (or ancient VHS ) you can watch a TV broadcast at anytime. As for rewatching CR, some are only available as long as you keep your payed membership (Naruto) and some videos are only licensed for a set amount of time (supposedly a month/episode with Fairy Tail), and only available when you have broadband internet. That aside, given CR's novelty and the short length of time it's been a business, there is no guarantee that CR will exist in a few years time to watch those shows. Once something is on DVD, you can buy it, and assuming you are careful, keep that DVD for a lifetime. There are no guarantees that CR will still be there. So while I certainly find CR a useful new service, it is not the same thing as a license that produces a DVD which I can purchase.

[npcomplete]

Just on this issue: all videos are available to everyone even without membership. Free users just get the lower quality version and 1 week delay for simulcasts. So far, the only series with a time limit is Fairy Tail and it's something I would consider an exception. Even Viz's streams for Naruto expire on others sites like ANN, Hulu, but CR's streams do not for example.

But I do agree on the difference between owning a copy and being able to rewatch online. Others have mentioned analogies to licensing for broadcast TV and CR is almost like that but not quite. It's more like broadcast video-on-demand.

However I think some publishers though who do license to CR, may not make the same distinction people here do... While I have not heard of a case where CR actually sent out a C&D, the publishers themselves have before for shows currently available only on CR e.g. FujiTV for Ristorante Paradiso, d-Rights for Hitman Reborn, etc. ... just something to keep in mind.

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by npcomplete

Just on this issue: all videos are available to everyone even without membership. Free users just get the lower quality version and 1 week delay for simulcasts. So far, the only series with a time limit is Fairy Tail and it's something I would consider an exception. Even Viz's streams for Naruto expire on others sites like ANN, Hulu, but CR's streams do not for example.

The regular Naruto episodes (as opposed to Naruto Shippuden) are all member only. This may be the only series like this, I am not sure. Some other movies appeared on the site also, such as 5 cm per Second, and were later removed. This may be because they were released as DVD's.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Ansalem

The regular Naruto episodes (as opposed to Naruto Shippuden) are all member only. This may be the only series like this, I am not sure. Some other movies appeared on the site also, such as 5 cm per Second, and were later removed. This may be because they were released as DVD's.

The only videos that are members only are the original Naruto and Fairy Tail. Everything else is members only for 1 week max from when they first stream.

[achirist]

I don't see why there is a need for the tag--surely crunchyroll could just be linked in the first post of those threads? Saturating the forum with corporate logos would really be tacky--crunchyroll didn't write the story, draw the animation, voice the actors...

[relentlessflame]

Disclaimer: This is "rf the anime merchandise collector" speaking, not "rf the might-be-perceived-as-representative-of-AnimeSuki" (which I'm really not anyway).

Originally Posted by Proto

Personally I don't really agree with that position. The point of fansubs in the first place was to increase the west awareness to a certain title, or to anime in general. Once a title is easily available for the western audience the role of fansubs is over right then and there, which is the whole idea behind 'licensing' in the fansub community (whoever respects it in any case, a group which Animesuki I believe belongs to). Something is considered licensed in the west not because it is printed in round shiny disks, but because you can legally acquire the media in whatever form, be it vhs tapes, dvd's, vcd's or internet streams.

To me, online streams may be a substitute for fansubs, but I don't perceive them as a substitute for home media releases. If Crunchyroll provides the highest benefit and best product, choosing them over the fansub alternatives will be rather natural to those who are able. I certainly don't think I would use my Crunchyroll subscription as some sort of justification for not buying shows I might have otherwise bought, and I don't think the licensors (who largely aren't even involved with Crunchyroll, big-name shows excepted) would see it that way either. So to me, seeing a show on Crunchyroll or seeing the same on fansub (or seeing the same show "raw") provides the same net benefit of watching the show before I buy -- they serve the same "TV-airing-like" function. And again, because I think CR's proposition is (or at least can be) pretty compelling on its own, I don't feel that showing the two options alongside each other will have a detrimental effect. In fact I think that, if anything, seeing the two side-by-side actually increases the appeal of the Crunchyroll option (not only because it's legal, but because it's easy, fast, and always available -- that will either appeal to people or it won't).

In other words, my personal take on the rules is that they are designed to point people towards buying the licensed products when they are available. Just because a show is being streamed through an authorized channel (with subscriptions being sold for a pittance) doesn't change that principle to me. Because of that, I don't foresee this new policy actually having a negative impact on licensed media sales (any more than Crunchyroll's simple existence would), and I think listing these shows along with the CR option has a good chance of attracting some people to that option (i.e. "pointing people towards the licensed product"), whereas treating the whole show as if it's dead to us will just drive people elsewhere (and that "elsewhere" probably would not consider CR an option worth listing). Keep in mind that the amount of "real fansubs" that exist for shows that are simulcast on Crunchyroll is not all that high anyway.

So again, I want to emphasize that this is me speaking as a fansub viewer and merchandise collector, and not in any other capacity. To be forthright, my primary argument among the staff while debating these changes was simply that our Listing Policy (and forum implementation) needed to be clear, consistent, and well-articulated. Despite all that said above, I also believe that the "licensed is licensed" position is reasonable and justified, and certainly would not try to argue against that. It is certainly logical and clear. But I have come to see things a bit differently in light of my own personal habits, and so that's the basis for my above comment. It does not necessarily reflect the views of... well, you know what I'm saying.

[npcomplete]

While I take the licensed is licensed view, I can certainly understand why some folks feel that "licensed" means licensed-to-own-a-copy. However, my impression is that many if not most of the shows on CR are there without any real plans for an english DVD/BD release. I'm assuming that revenue from CR is just a bonus for them--icing on the cake. But who knows if some actually use that as any kind of indicator for pursuing a DVD/BD licensee later?

Originally Posted by achirist

I don't see why there is a need for the tag--surely crunchyroll could just be linked in the first post of those threads? Saturating the forum with corporate logos would really be tacky--crunchyroll didn't write the story, draw the animation, voice the actors...

I think you might be confusing "tags" for logos. In the proposal here, they're just textual keywords that every series thread would have, CR related or not.

[Doria]

Originally Posted by npcomplete

But who knows if some actually use that as any kind of indicator for pursuing a DVD/BD licensee later?

While I have no actual inside knowledge for the CR/license holder relationship, I can assure you that for any other media setup that's similar, there is no question that high numbers and interest here would, at least, affect publisher's decisions to pick up shows. I mean, why wouldn't it?

Publishers have used a show's ratings on CN to determine whether to release DVDs, as well. And so far as I know, it is not the case that every show aired on US TV has been released to DVD. Every show on CR certainly won't be. But I would also guess that some will, and personally, I hope a number of them will be because I would like to buy them. So I guess that is how my own retail collector's side affects my argument--I want more series I like available for purchase in the US, and I'm fairly opposed to things that may harm the chances of that happening. But that is simply a personal argument, not necessarily an objective one.

[False Dawn]

The problem with the current "categories" that have been put in place for CR titles is the fact that it's assumed that they won't be licensed for DVD release using the same subtitles. Lest we forget, Crunchyroll only actually became a licensor as such back in January and it's pretty much still in its infancy. Who's to say that a DVD company won't come along and buy the rights to the series as well as the accompanying subtitles? If they do, what do you do with the categorisation then? Are they suddenly magically considered "licensed"?

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by False Dawn

The problem with the current "categories" that have been put in place for CR titles is the fact that it's assumed that they won't be licensed for DVD release using the same subtitles. Lest we forget, Crunchyroll only actually became a licensor as such back in January and it's pretty much still in its infancy. Who's to say that a DVD company won't come along and buy the rights to the series as well as the accompanying subtitles? If they do, what do you do with the categorisation then? Are they suddenly magically considered "licensed"?

As far as I understand "licensed" category, it is not there to provide you with information that you'll be able to buy USA DVDs - it is there to provide an outlet for discussion of those shows that are good enough to be translated but that suffer from artifical english version scarcity due to an early licensing, so that they don't just get buried under the mass of new shows that people can see and actually understand. As such, all simulcasts don't belong to the "Licensed" section.

[GHDpro]

Originally Posted by Doria

Publishers have used a show's ratings on CN to determine whether to release DVDs, as well. And so far as I know, it is not the case that every show aired on US TV has been released to DVD. Every show on CR certainly won't be. But I would also guess that some will, and personally, I hope a number of them will be because I would like to buy them. So I guess that is how my own retail collector's side affects my argument--I want more series I like available for purchase in the US, and I'm fairly opposed to things that may harm the chances of that happening. But that is simply a personal argument, not necessarily an objective one.

While CR will not affect the chances of "A" titles being released on DVD/BD much and may also lead to some niche titles to be considered from DVD/BD based on their CR "ratings", I think CR can be the deadblow for the chance of "B" and "C" tiltes to be released on DVD/BD. Anime studios have mentioned multiple times that fansubs impacted the success of less-than-great titles because people who already had seen the fansubs were not keen on buying the DVDs once the series was licensed.

And I can sympathize - if you have a limited budget for purchasing DVD/BD then it makes sense to mostly buy the titles you've really liked and/or not yet seen (completely) yet, rather than buying titles that you enjoyed but were not excited about. Or, you'd only buy those series after they're re-released in cheap boxsets, which reduces the profitability.

Because CR is as fast, easy and (almost) as cheap as fansubs, CR has the same effect on DVD/BD sales as fansubs in my view. Now if CR would somehow be such a business success that they can fill in the "damage" they do in terms of DVD/BD sales, then I don't have a problem with CR. But I somehow doubt they are able to pay for (expensive!) streaming hosting and timely subtitle translation while leaving enough money to pay back their licenses with. I think CR either is able to pay out only a relatively small amount to licensors or pay amounts thay won't be able to sustain in the future once their investment capital runs out.

But I suppose whether CR is good or bad for the chances of anime hitting DVD/BD and the whether they have a sound business plan is going a bit off topic...

Back on topic - about forum reorganization. I think the "Current/Older/Unaired" structure might work, but only if we set up a strict set of rules that determine when a series discussion thread should be moved from Current to Older.

How about the following rules (to which I've not given to much thought):

- Move series from "Current" to "Older" after 2 weeks since the last episode was subbed OR after 4 weeks since the last episode aired, whichever comes first

- Specials/OVAs that air or are put on DVDs after the series aired are not counted in the first rule

Anyone got any other ideas regarding forum organization?

[felix]

Originally Posted by GHDpro

How about the following rules (to which I've not given to much thought):

- Move series from "Current" to "Older" after 2 weeks since the last episode was subbed OR after 4 weeks since the last episode aired, whichever comes first

- Specials/OVAs that air or are put on DVDs after the series aired are not counted in the first rule

Anyone got any other ideas regarding forum organization?

Simple rule of thumb: "Current = available now".

Detailed

• Each episode be it from Tv/OVA/etc of a series gets 2 weeks of discussion in Current.
• Special circumstances when a episode won't air (such as some holidays) are still counted as if it did.
• Only first occurrence/airing counts, thus the date of the first time the material became available (though tv airing or otherwise) is used for measurement.

What happens when a series gets fansubbed?

If it meets the criteria for Current it stays there and gets a "Fansubbed" thread prefix.

What happens when a series gets licensed?

If it meets the criteria for Current it stays there and gets a "Licensed" thread prefix.

What happens when series doesn't meet criteria anymore?

Its moved to Older.

[GHDpro]

Originally Posted by Cats

Simple rule of thumb: "Current = available now".

Detailed

• Each episode be it from Tv/OVA/etc of a series gets 2 weeks of discussion in Current.
• Special circumstances when a episode won't air (such as some holidays) are still counted as if it did.
• Only first occurrence/airing counts, thus the date of the first time the material became available (though tv airing or otherwise) is used for measurement.

What about OVAs that are put on the (final) DVDs which are usually released several months after the series aired? I think that once a series discussion thread is moved from "Current" to "Older" it should not be moved back except for really special circumstances.

Originally Posted by Cats

What happens when a series gets licensed?

If it meets the criteria for Current it stays there and gets a "Licensed" thread prefix.

I don't think a licensed series needs to meet any other criteria to get a "Licensed" prefix, no matter if it's in Current, Older or Unaired (=a little unlikely, but not impossible).

[felix]

If its going to be aired after serveral months it doesn't meat "available now" which is the sole purpose of the forum. A minute is 30s, a hour is 60 minutes, a day is 24 hours... several months is a pretty special timeframe =P

I said two weeks but that's really a arbitrary value based more on the convenience of moving them (with two weeks you only really should need to move it to Current and later to Older). Logically though I think it should be the average time a episode/OVA whatever enjoys discussion popularity; but with low values that might be troublesome unless you just use some little script.

[relentlessflame]

Regarding the rules for moving from "current" to "older" (if we adopt that model), if we're basing it all on a time-based system revolving around what's "current", then I'm inclined to say that we don't need the "2 weeks from the last fansub" stipulation, and it should just be based on airing time (maybe a generic compromise time of 3 weeks after last airing). But this is a bit less than ideal for cases (albeit getting more rare) where subs arrive rather late, because it gives the impression that the timeframe revolves around the availability of raws, and not the availability of fansubs (even though this forum does not allow linking to raws or encourage open discussion of raw content). So basing it all on the availability of raws seems suspect, but basing it on the availability of subs is also suspect (because the word "current" may not apply to complete shows that are 1+ year old but not fully-subbed yet).

The other consideration about the rules you suggest for Method 2 is keeping track of this data and moving things on a timely basis. xris indicated previously that he felt this was a concern given that series aren't necessarily being moved in a consistent and timely manner as it is. We could use something like this as a guide to help us keep track of what shows would need to be moved, but if we're also basing it on sub release times, we'd need a similar report that can be pulled from the AS database. Having to refer to these sorts of lists to make sure series get moved consistently seems like a bit of a chore.

So for these reasons I do sort of prefer the season-based structure (at least for the current and previous seasons, and then meshed together later), because this removes more of this issue. Under that scenario, the only question becomes whether a series is "ongoing" or "older", and in that case I would say that, unless a show is licensed, it's "ongoing" until the subs are complete. I think it's less work to keep track of and more consistent in terms of new-user expectations.

[felix]

Simple, ignore the "when RAW comes out" and "when sub comes out". I'm not a new member, I still think they are pointless after all these years. In the end a series (unless it has a forum) will either be Older (ie. no new material coming out soon / inactive) or Fresh (ie. current, hip, now); lets face it you can't really tell which series are airing now that are discussed unless you take a list and manually shift though threads. And why is that? because at the moment they are mixed with both older series as well as split into licensed, fansubbed, not fansubbed, MFI, CR etc.

The complexity considered is I think blown out of proportions. Its in the end just two section, which means it doesn't really matter if a series is in one or the other at any given point in time. If searching is really a problem (which it is not) they can be placed into a common container to make it even more idiot proof.

And yeah the "why is it not here yet" is a problem, but I thought you intentionally did that so as to avoid early noise/spam hype. If you didn't then just do it like this:

Series is moved to Current when a material is scheduled for public release in a week^example or less and hasn't aired or been released previously.

You could also add a Unaired prefix to give it some attention until it gets released.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Cats

Simple, ignore the "when RAW comes out" and "when sub comes out". I'm not a new member, I still think they are pointless after all these years. In the end a series (unless it has a forum) will either be Older (ie. no new material coming out soon / inactive) or Fresh (ie. current, hip, now)

No, that makes no sense, Cats. I'm not talking about "unaired", I'm talking about week-to-week up to and including a show's last episode. You are either basing "Freshness" on the actual airing of the TV show in Japan (i.e. "raws"), or the availability of the show with English subs (i.e. "subs"). You can't just "ignore it"; you must choose one or the other. To people who are waiting for the subs before watching, a show is "fresh" until all the episodes are out in subtitled form. But to people who are watching the show without subtitles, a show is no longer "fresh" once the TV airing is over. So the whole idea of "currency" depends on which definition you use. This is why I prefer the season-orientation, because the definition is inherent to the structure. And again, this isn't about when you move it into "Current", it's about when you move it out.

In other words, the word "Current" in this context depends on who you ask, and that's less than ideal.

[felix]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

No, that makes no sense, Cats. I'm not talking about "unaired", I'm talking about week-to-week up to and including a show's last episode. You are either basing "Freshness" on the actual airing of the TV show in Japan (i.e. "raws"), or the availability of the show with English subs (i.e. "subs").

When you say RAW I think of a torrent of a video with no subs and japanese VA. Well, I'm for neither of those, I choose option 3: time of first airing / or date of first release (on tv or somewhere, not the internet back alleys).

Ok let me explain why the other two options don't make sense to me.

Concerning the lets call them "non-english" ones. Date/time for when its leaked to the internet as a torrent to a video with no sub is irrelevant. First of all you are probably tainted by RAWs for popular shows which come out fast (its not the same for all shows), secondly we have our ways of getting what we want when we want it fast and its not necessarily downloading a torrent¹, heck its not necessarily even video format (not even necessarily after it airs), thus the hole notion of RAW becomes blurred. Why can't we discuss the episode before seeing a video of it? isn't knowing everything that is going on the same thing anyway.

You then have Fansubs. Honestly typically fansubs don't really coincide with the episode and Current might as well start housing shows from 2 years back if we go by that criteria; if you don't get it I'm trying to imply you would have a lot of exceptions since you can't just label something "Current" just because some courageous fellow experimented the art of fansubing on the show (people are not that patient with the show either). Secondly the shows that get good subs (ie. the ones that are short of a forum) usually get them in the interval of a week (at least the first/fast subs) so its pretty close to air date/time anyway.

So what do you have then? you can go with Fansub or RAW subjective date/time and have late response, exceptions everywhere and complicated rules on a per series basis, thus almost arbitrary order; did I mention the hole issue of you monitoring everything including licensed (unless you want to add more complexity with special rules for those, lol). Or, you could go with air/release date/time and have a universal rule.
__________________
¹ On a amusing related note, a lot of people's eyes seem to be blind to something like chinese subs, even when they come earlier then the what is popularly referred to as RAW; so even if RAW is first video as torrent, that's still pretty ambiguous territory

[relentlessflame]

And your whole point above is exactly why I'm saying that Option 3, which bases things and keeps them organized based on the airing season, is a little better because it avoids this "controversy" (that you may consider trivial).

To be clear, when I say "raws", I mean the date/time they air in Japan. When they get posted on BitTorrent makes little difference, since those are just reposts from when they appear on other P2P, which is generally within hours of airing. So whether or not files are posted anywhere is immaterial. For the sake of argument, we can assume that every show will be available, in raw form, online to people outside of Japan (certainly illegally, if not legally in a few cases). And if not that, there are some forum users who are in Japan who may watch things directly on TV. So again, for my argument, "raws" = Japanese TV first-airing times (or the DVD/BD release in the case of OVAs, etc. etc.). In practice that means "whenever people start talking about the episode".

Your issue with using fansubs is a criteria is exactly what I was saying before. Even if you ignore the fringe cases (2 years later, etc.), if people are waiting for fansubs of the last few episodes a few weeks after the show has finished airing, is it "fresh" or not? Again, remember: this site's primary user base is supposed to be users who cannot understand anime without English subtitles (or dubs, I suppose). If we say "fansubs don't matter; whether a series is called "current" depends on when it airs in Japan", it seems like we're disenfranchising the site's primary audience. You may not care (because, like me, you understand the weird problems using fansubs as a basis for determining "freshness" cause), but I think such a move may upset some forum participants, as it will perceived as a move that favours those who don't have to wait for fansubs to be released.

If, on the other hand, you use the airing season, you deftly avoid this issue by moving series from one category to another on a consistent-basis based on airing times, and this is to be expected based on the way your forums are organized. For example, shows that start in the Summer 2009 season will be in the Summer 2009 forum, no matter the airing/subbing/whatever status. And then, after the two most recent seasons are over, you would either have to move a thread to "Older" or "Ongoing", and this could potentially be dependent on the fansub status without causing any great problem. And the reason for this is that the distinction between "ongoing" or "older" is a lot more arbitrary and open to definition than a term like "current".

In other words, if we avoid the "what is current?" issue entirely, it makes things easier for me and the rest of the moderators/admins. We don't have to track the end-date of shows, we can move things consistently on a quarterly basis, and it doesn't seem to particularly favour either raw viewers or fansub viewers in terms of the way we're organizing things.

[False Dawn]

Originally Posted by GHDpro

Because CR is as fast, easy and (almost) as cheap as fansubs, CR has the same effect on DVD/BD sales as fansubs in my view. Now if CR would somehow be such a business success that they can fill in the "damage" they do in terms of DVD/BD sales, then I don't have a problem with CR. But I somehow doubt they are able to pay for (expensive!) streaming hosting and timely subtitle translation while leaving enough money to pay back their licenses with. I think CR either is able to pay out only a relatively small amount to licensors or pay amounts thay won't be able to sustain in the future once their investment capital runs out.

Ah I see. So this is almost a personal vendetta of sorts then? I mean, why else would you compare CR to fansubs without any real knowledge of either process? Luckily, I'm not as naive as to think that the Japanese companies give their products to CR for free (I know a bit about the licensing market and I know how stingy the Japanese anime companies are). You're basically saying here that CR is hurting the anime industry, in so many words, rather than helping it.

Each to their own, of course. If that's your point of view, you're welcome to enforce it, but it'd be nice if you didn't attempt to veil your point of view with arguments on the nature of licensing, when it's pretty clear that you just don't agree with online streaming.