2013-10-20, 02:09 | Link #82 |
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it's nonsense. kabuto was a huge player in the series (particularly this arc). this war (which has lasted so long I dont' even feel like looking it up) was entirely against obito and kabuto. naruto took on obito, while itachi took on kabuto. if half of one side of a war is a 'mook' then... i don't even know where to begin. not only that, but edo-madara is thanks to kabuto as well. no offense to james, but it strikes me as a very stubborn argument
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2013-10-20, 07:05 | Link #84 | |
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Imagine what would have happened if Itachi didn't turn to the alliance side. A force with Madara, Itachi and Nagato, and then there's Sage-Kabuto. Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-10-20 at 09:17. |
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2013-10-20, 08:46 | Link #85 | |
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In other words, the entire story arc could have been told without the zombies and Kabuto and nothing would have been lost save for a few token character moments that, more often than not, we hated anyway. That being said, I explicitly called Itachi another 'general' within the analogy (you can have more than one general after all). edit: I forgot, there was one thing the zombies were actually good for in the context of the actual story: providing a portion of the Kyuubi via the Zombie Twins. There are other ways Kishimoto could have gone about doing this (Orochimaru coming back, summoning the Kages, and Obito taking the Kyuubi from Minato; or he could have just taken the beast from Naruto), but the Zombie Twins were a fast and effective way of moving the plot forward, even if they were an extreme contrivance and awful characters in their own right. Last edited by james0246; 2013-10-20 at 08:58. |
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2013-10-20, 09:52 | Link #86 | |
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Its also interesting that some people seem to think of Kabuto as some lowly servent, and are also dissapointed that a "hack" like Obito became such a powerful villain. Apparently its plausible for Naruto to become very powerful from such humble beginnings but not others :/ |
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2013-10-20, 10:24 | Link #87 | |
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Let me reorient the current discussion: if Kabuto/Zombies were to have been completely removed from this war, would the central story have really lost anything? Gaining the Kyuubi parts was important, but there are other potential avenues to have gained that power. Itachi's words, which we are still disputing, were important, but why couldn't any number of other powerful individuals have said something similar? Hell, Sasuke didn't even really gain that much from Itachi's appearance, it was Orochimaru and the Hokage's that helped Sasuke, and that story could have been told independent of the zombies. Finally, there were the tertiary characters that sometimes gained relevant closure from the zombies, but did we really care that much about Chouji's whatever his problem was, or Samurai guys something with Salamander man (I think there was something with Zabuza as well, but it is hard to recall)? Sai's zombie and the Sasori incident were the only ones I could recall being meaningful to the characters involved, but maybe that is just me. Personally, I saw the zombies as a diversion, sometimes fun, often not; but they were not central to Naruto's story. Consequently, I do weigh Kabuto lesser on the scale of importance simply because I feel he made less of an impact on the story. If you fell that is arrogant, I apologize. I am not truly judging the characters based on their individual merits (in which case, I greatly prefer Kabuto over Obito as a villain), but simply how they function within the overarching story. Last edited by james0246; 2013-10-20 at 11:26. |
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2013-10-20, 11:50 | Link #88 | ||||
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2013-10-20, 13:18 | Link #89 | |
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and just to say, i'm not defending the story of the edo-tensei army because i think it sucked and would rather it didn't happen, but it did and it was insanely powerful and did in fact alter the course of the story in many significant ways, the least of which was probably giving closure to many 'evil' characters who turned out to have a heart after all. again, something i dislike but it's there |
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2013-10-20, 13:52 | Link #90 | |
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I would have also liked the smaller villages to have had a stake in this war (what with them being the unofficial playing grounds for all the larger villages wars). There is quite a bit of geo-political intrigue that could have been found in these lesser villages attempting to stay active in the face of the larger villages constant wars. Not really. A character is supposed to be integral to the story being told, their impact, whether small or large, should be entirely theirs. For example, say what you will about Shikimaru's inability to use his intelligence, in the end he still has a definitive place within the story and when he speaks or acts no one else can say what he is saying or do what he is doing (and this is true for a great deal of the characters in the series). Kabuto's accomplishments, though, in this war were either lackluster (every zombie that was not Itachi or the Zombie twins) or ultimately replaceable (sorry, but most of what Itachi did for Naruto could have been done by anyone, and no I do not think Itachi made Sasuke neutral). Madara was already going to come back some other way (both he and Obito said as much), and while the Zombie twins were useful, they were ultimately an extreme deus ex machina that prevented Naruto from every actually being in danger (preventing any interesting drama). (And no, the evil side characters getting closure was not really important to the overarching storyline.) In the end, I expect Kabuto reappearance was there entirely to bring back Orochimaru. |
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2013-10-20, 20:06 | Link #91 | ||||
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2013-10-22, 06:07 | Link #92 |
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Haven't seen anyone else bring it up so I'll throw out an idea:
Last manga titled "I'll sleep" Obito grabs Sasuke and Naruto and says "I'll take you into the dream, there's no more time." Next manga everyone gathers together, Naruto and Sasuke fuse their powers and all the ninja deliver a crushing one hit KO using the power of friendship. Cheesy? Yes, but it's also probably the ultimate conclusion that Naruto would hope for from this point. If it wasn't for the fact that there was already a movie kind of showing what a prototype dream would be like, I'd totally believe the dream's started and it begins with the ninja's sudden total over powering of Obito. Not sure I think it's true, but I'm really hoping. It could sure make the plot more interesting and justify the cheese and improbable amount of power everyone's showing. |
2013-10-22, 09:42 | Link #93 |
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Sorry guys, if theres already a post somewhere about this.. but do you guys think naruto is really ending? Is there going to be no naruto vs sasuke showdown? Any word from the author about his plans for the manga?
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2013-10-22, 12:03 | Link #94 | ||
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Sorry I couldn't respond until now.
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The zombies offered little in the way of concrete plot advancement, and if anything created great moments of false conflict (the zombie twins appearing offering a solution that keeps Naruto safe; Asuma and Chouji's whatever, Hanzou, Zabuza, etc. Most recently the Hokages undermined Naruto and Sasuke and the entire alliance). Even Itachi's words to Naruto weren't truly plot centric to his experiences or abilities (Nagato could have just as easily if not better said something similar in that instance, and Kakashi, Bi and quite a few other living characters could have said something as relevant). And no, I still do not believe Itachi helped Sasuke all that much, and even if he did, there could have been other more interesting ways such help could have occurred (maybe Itachi could have sealed a portion of himself within his eyes and when Sasuke used them we could have been provided with a moment for Itachi to reveal himself to Sasuke similar to how Minato and Kushina sealed away part of themselves to interact with Naruto). Quote:
Side stories/quests are great for expanding the fictional world and creating character definition. The best side stories/quests have thematic elements that can tie in directly to either the main protagonist or the overarching story. That being said, the zombies offer very little. At best, Sai's zombie gave the character some needed closure, but I doubt anyone really cared, and frankly the closure could have been found outside of resurrecting a dead one-dimensional character for a vague two-dimensional character that most try and forget. The Sasori moment was also nice for similar reasons (though Sasori needed even less closure). Additionally, both have semi-coherent thematic connections to the main storyline (redemption based on friendship, the evils of the village system, etc). Sadly, none of the other zombies, sans Itachi, offered anything really interesting or definitive either as their own one-off side stories or as a means of looking at the main story from a different view. The zombies were a diversion added to give characters something to do, and they were mostly awful at that task. The worst were probably Asuma and Gaara's father, since they offered us absolutely nothing new or interesting, but beyond that are those that appeared and then did nothing (ala Dan, Haku, Chiyo, Kimimaro or Zabuza, who appeared and then did nothing of real relevance). All in all, nearly the entire zombie brigade was a waste of time and endlessly boring. I agree. In fact, that's kind of my point. Kabuto was an easy way to bring back Orochimaru, but there were other methods available that didn't require a lot of logic stretching and overwrought storylines...which is what Kishimoto did with the zombies and Kabuto to begin with . Last edited by james0246; 2013-10-22 at 12:34. |
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