Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

There is still no different, Bastion-kun. She was acting as a frail girl believing it will make Hayate likes her, but Hayate believed she wasn't feeling well since she is a a strong and hyperactive girl, a monster, in his eyes.

Given how the entire point of my argument was that what she thinks will get his attention, by the world's view, is pulling the exact opposite. And she gets rewarded when she acts normally.

Acting like a frail girl doesn't get her the attention she wants, while acting strong, like she normally is, rewards her.

Acting 'girly-girl' gets her the first date, but he's coerced into it, while acting strong during it gets her positive attention.
Acting frail gets her negative attention, when she acts strong she gets rewarded by being granted another date.
Looking nice without positive reinforcement earns her his gaze to uncomfortable degrees.

All things the world would want to tell her shouldn't get her attention is getting her closer.
I'd bet that once she shows him that she was the hero that helped him will be gaining her more points where the story is currently.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Given how the entire point of my argument was that what she thinks will get his attention, by the world's view, is pulling the exact opposite. And she gets rewarded when she acts normally.

Acting like a frail girl doesn't get her the attention she wants, while acting strong, like she normally is, rewards her.

Acting 'girly-girl' gets her the first date, but he's coerced into it, while acting strong during it gets her positive attention.
Acting frail gets her negative attention, when she acts strong she gets rewarded by being granted another date.
Looking nice without positive reinforcement earns her his gaze to uncomfortable degrees.

All things the world would want to tell her shouldn't get her attention is getting her closer.
I'd bet that once she shows him that she was the hero that helped him will be gaining her more points where the story is currently.

I'm not here to argue the world's view or what she or you think the world want her to do according to your perspective. Or what you think it's the better or worst outcome because of how she acted. It's meaningless and will go on forever and forever, and I'm not at all interested in speaking about Hina.

I'm here to give evidences on how Hina acted according to the logic that you have been given negatively only toward Athena. That's all, Bastion-kun.

Edit: Bye, bye...it's sleeping time.

[Koroshiya_Kame_13]

You people take it so deep. I just interpretted that it was for the comedy build up for the final smashing victory.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

There is still no different, Bastion-kun. She was acting as a frail girl believing it will make Hayate likes her, but Hayate believed she wasn't feeling well since she is a strong,hyperactive, monster girl in his eyes.

What?

Where did Hayate think of Hina as a monster girl?

[GlassesLady]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

You're not the only one who has a problem with it, I support it with you. I have no issue supporting Nagi anymore because of her mental maturity (which seems to be what Hayate is meaning when he talks about preferring older women) while I have a large problem with Athena's actions towards Hayate.

Also find it amusing that Hayate has shown interest in three girls physically. Maria, Hinagiku and Athena. Out of those three, Athena is the only one who prompted such a question, while the others were squicked by the reaction they were causing from Hayate.
Definately seems that she's trying a little hard to make sure she's the one in Hayate's heart.

That's not actually the problem I was referring to, but I'll give you props for trying. *gives Bastion props*

Anyway, for people who care, I was talking about the.... trying to remake Hayate into her perfect little white knight who will take care of her forever!
But Gasp! you say, But she let Hayate go back to Nagi, that must mean she's not selfish at all! Well, the 'I want my beloved to be happy' bit is nice and all, but I'm left with the feeling that if they did still manage to hook up, she'd revert to ordering Hayate to take care of her and kicking him in the stomach if he tried to protest. Considering that
-She doesn't bat an eyelash when Hayate mentions that he hasn't had a girlfriend the entire time they were apart due to not being financially responsible enough
-She says she plans to teach Machina some things, most likely the same stuff she taught Hayate
-The first thing she does once freed from Midas is to use Hayate as furniture
I'd say that that aspect of her hasn't changed at all since EotW.
Now, I'm not even saying she's doing this deliberately to be selfish - she probably truly believes it's the way a relationship should work, or something - but that doesn't change the fact that it causes a problem in her relationship with Hayate. He sincerely thinks he needs to be 'dependable' in order to be allowed to be with a girl, thanks to Athena hammering this into his head before he really knew anything about relationships, and Athena seems to believe this as well, so what you end up with if they hook up is Hayate working his ass off just to be 'allowed' to be with her, while Athena does god-knows-what, probably nothing. It's an inequal relationship. And they need to be apart for a while to work through this. Maybe once they've both dropped this idea, I'll consider Athena as a candidate for Hayate's girlfriend, but for now, keep them the hell away from each other. :P

(And by the way, fanboys.... making up cute little excuses for Athena's actions or talking about how much you lied them isn't going to improve my opinion of her. Or of you, for that matter.)

[zibi88]

but seriously after seeing the spoiler of c265 I feel sooo depressed.... I dont want Athena to disappear like that....... I would prefer Nagi to just vanish since she is not my fav char......

well Nagis childish gags reffering to 80% of the whole manga her playing games, drawing that shity mangas that no one understands or slacking off all days...... well its alrady overused for me and it got boring........ and personaly I dont see any ending with HayatexNagi at all..... I just cant... maybe others can but I no matter how long think about it I cant see it...

Hayate might now shut down all his "love" interest for other girls.... like "I will only love A-tan" and no one else..... so he might hear confessions but he wont respond to them becouse his heart belongs forever to other girl (the love he held up to for all those 10years)


hmmm I feel that from now one hayte wont be the same hayate... he will think about athena more.... he will be more depressed... and manga will lose the comedy aspect..... hmm kinda "now nothing will be like before".... Hata might try to show comedy again yet deep inside it wont be the same.... duo the athena parting..... ehhh kinda "why her".... why not kick out some other character out ^^

well hayate cried at the parting so he will suffer more deep inside (something will change for him).... and the relantionship with nagi will be like it was buttler and lady of the house nothing more.......

we can say that this is a space for hina or ayumu... but seriouly will hataye after this another sad parting instantly switch and forget about his love for Athena... like nothing happened.... nope its impossible so he will rather stay away from any romantic relantionships for now.... at his current state I guess even if hina would confess he wouldnt accept it...

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Koroshiya_Kame_13

You people take it so deep.

We are best of friends, and the purpose of that discussion was for FUN. hehe

Rah, I know you like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSgM5...eature=related

Originally Posted by Mentar

What?

Where did Hayate think of Hina as a monster girl?

Spoiler for angels:

Oh lord, have mercy on me..
Zod, take a gun
he aims
he fires
he's dead

Oo, your 're right, he only thought of her as a "wild beast," not a monster. Sorry, I thought he'd use monster instead of "wild beast" to emphasize her strength. But I like "wild beast" better, cuz you know..it has a little craziness and madness also which is always fun.

Originally Posted by GlassesLady

But Gasp! you say, But she let Hayate go back to Nagi, that must mean she's not selfish at all! Well, the 'I want my beloved to be happy' bit is nice and all, but I'm left with the feeling that if they did still manage to hook up, she'd revert to ordering Hayate to take care of her and kicking him in the stomach if he tried to protest. Considering that
-She doesn't bat an eyelash when Hayate mentions that he hasn't had a girlfriend the entire time they were apart due to not being financially responsible enough
-She says she plans to teach Machina some things, most likely the same stuff she taught Hayate
-The first thing she does once freed from Midas is to use Hayate as furniture
I'd say that that aspect of her hasn't changed at all since EotW.

(And by the way, fanboys.... making up cute little excuses for Athena's actions or talking about how much you lied them isn't going to improve my opinion of her. Or of you, for that matter.)

Are you kidding, Neyichigo God onee-san?

And here I wanted her to be honest with herself and acted more selfish. I was disappointed that she didn't use her power to cut Hayate's arms and legs to turn him into a tree-like person when she rested on his chest as he was a furniture, and you were worry about such trivial details about her making him a love slave which is the best part of the manga?

[musouka]

Originally Posted by GlassesLady

-She doesn't bat an eyelash when Hayate mentions that he hasn't had a girlfriend the entire time they were apart due to not being financially responsible enough

Why should she? There's nothing wrong with being financially independent before starting romantic relationships.

Originally Posted by GlassesLady

-She says she plans to teach Machina some things, most likely the same stuff she taught Hayate

How to properly clean carpets? The fiend.

Originally Posted by GlassesLady

-The first thing she does once freed from Midas is to use Hayate as furniture

No, she wasn't sitting on him, she was using him a heater.

Originally Posted by GlassesLady

(And by the way, fanboys.... making up cute little excuses for Athena's actions or talking about how much you lied them isn't going to improve my opinion of her. Or of you, for that matter.)

Not just boys like Athena, you know...

Anyway, you totally neglect Hayate's own feelings in all this. She never forced him to do anything. She never manipulated him into anything. He fell in love with her and wanted to improve himself because of it, as he outright says in EotW. The EotW arc wasn't about Athena bending Hayate to her will, it was about Hayate gaining confidence in himself and becoming stronger because of it.

[Bangirasu]

With A-tan arc over I hope the manga finally focus in Himegami.

[mitsuganae]

I simply want some semblance of humour to return.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by musouka

Why should she? There's nothing wrong with being financially independent before starting romantic relationships.

Financially independent in high school?

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by musouka

No, she wasn't sitting on him, she was using him a heater.

So a heater isn't a piece of furniture?

You people talk about how he 'loves' Athena. So you're willing to take him at his word for being so in love with someone he knew ~ten years ago for a few months, and only a few nights recently vs girls he's known a minimum of four months recently?

And there's nothing wrong with this picture, like realizing people change and mature over time, which Athena makes sure Hayate notices. And she focused him on the physical side, while the other girls ignore his 'poor-looking face' and are still attracted to him.
[sarcasm]Physical appearance is everything in a relationship, right?[/sarcasm]

[musouka]

Originally Posted by GDB

Financially independent in high school?

To a certain degree. I think high school kids should at least have jobs before they start dating seriously. Kinda puts a dampener on things to have to ask mommy for your allowance before taking your girlfriend to the movies, you know? (Not having a hundred million plus debt would also be a bonus, but if we didn't ignore that, Hayate wouldn't be able to date until his 40's, so...)

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

So a heater isn't a piece of furniture?

Technically, it's an appliance, not furniture...

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

So you're willing to take him at his word for being so in love with someone he knew ~ten years ago for a few months, and only a few nights recently vs girls he's known a minimum of four months recently?

Why would I think I know the character better than he does himself? He obviously gave it some thought and weighed his feelings for her against the feelings he had for those girls he'd known for a few months, and concluded that he loved her more than them. (Nagi excluded, natch) Whether or not you think it's logical is ultimately immaterial in the face of what Hayate himself said. Even in this chapter, he told her he loved her in the present tense. It was Athena who put it in past tense.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

And there's nothing wrong with this picture, like realizing people change and mature over time, which Athena makes sure Hayate notices. And she focused him on the physical side, while the other girls ignore his 'poor-looking face' and are still attracted to him.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, but might I point out that most of the things that made the girls fall in love with Hayate were things Athena taught him? He was always "nice", but she taught him how to be strong and gentle at the same time, and awoke the desire to protect people within him.

This means that Athena fell in love with him when he was a weak crybaby, whose default position when he saw a girl being attacked was to run away. So if you're talking about physical appearance, it was Athena that saw past his negative exterior and recognized the good in him long before any of the other girls had even met Hayate.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by musouka

Technically, it's an appliance, not furniture...

If you really want to get technical, there are lots of cases all over where people sit on appliances, thus turning an appliance into a piece of furnature.
They serve similar purposes though. Something that serves some purpose, and you have to avoid walking into it.

Originally Posted by musouka

Why would I think I know the character better than he does himself? He obviously gave it some thought and weighed his feelings for her against the feelings he had for those girls he'd known for a few months, and concluded that he loved her more than them. (Nagi excluded, natch) Whether or not you think it's logical is ultimately immaterial in the face of what Hayate himself said. Even in this chapter, he told her he loved her in the present tense. It was Athena who put it in past tense.

Only the fans make it out to be loving Athena more than the other girls. His words are 'different' I believe, which I'm fond of pointing out only means that it isn't the same as for the other girls.
I like Athena for a different reason as the other girls, she's dead last (and yet still far from least favorite anime/manga female), and yet I could use the exact same wording Hayate does without regret.

Originally Posted by musouka

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, but might I point out that most of the things that made the girls fall in love with Hayate were things Athena taught him? He was always "nice", but she taught him how to be strong and gentle at the same time, and awoke the desire to protect people within him.

This means that Athena fell in love with him when he was a weak crybaby, whose default position when he saw a girl being attacked was to run away. So if you're talking about physical appearance, it was Athena that saw past his negative exterior and recognized the good in him long before any of the other girls had even met Hayate.

So they couldn't possibly love him for the personality he's grown from the ten years since her?
Hina is the one who comments when she learns of how Athena taught him that a 'witch' taught him those things.
Izumi is the only one close, and yet she likes him for is something his brother also taught him (by example). Athena put words to it and told him more recently, so that's what came up when he started to turn away, but it was shown that Hayate's brother acts the same way, but only likely spent a few hours at most with her.

We didn't get any true indication that she actually loved Hayate until recently, during the entire EotW arc she never actually says the words.
Kicking someone in the stomach and then when they complain about it calling it the pain of love? Sure, sounds like she loves him a lot.
When did Hayate protect a girl being attacked in the past? It was Izumi's doll that was being attacked, Lucky never gave indication that he was interested in attacking Izumi herself.

[Used Can]

I think when Athena said Hayate had to be able to financially support a girl she was thinking about a serious, long-term relationship and not just casual dating.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

So they couldn't possibly love him for the personality he's grown from the ten years since her?

The EotW arc was a retcon in order to show exactly how Hayate learned many of the skills and tendencies that would later form the basis of his personality. Unless you think the girls love Hayate for his amazing art forgery detection skills, then, yes, part of the reason they love Hayate is what Athena taught him.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Hina is the one who comments when she learns of how Athena taught him that a 'witch' taught him those things.

Hina doesn't know the full story, and was judging Athena based on a single aspect of what happened. Or would you agree that Hina is "violent and irrational" if another character said that based on what Hayate told them about her?

When Hina met Athena herself, she was obviously very fond of her and didn't think of her as a witch. On the contrary, she wanted to be closer friends with her.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Izumi is the only one close, and yet she likes him for is something his brother also taught him (by example). Athena put words to it and told him more recently, so that's what came up when he started to turn away, but it was shown that Hayate's brother acts the same way, but only likely spent a few hours at most with her.

Hayate had been around his brother for several years (I assume), but it took Athena's encouragement and "words" in order for him to turn around and help save Izumi. Hayate's bro might have been a good example, but Hayate himself wonders if he can live up to the example his brother set. Whereas, when Hayate was with Athena, he wanted to live up to the example she set, and saw the strength of mind he was gaining by being around her.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

We didn't get any true indication that she actually loved Hayate until recently, during the entire EotW arc she never actually says the words.

Love is more than words.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Kicking someone in the stomach and then when they complain about it calling it the pain of love? Sure, sounds like she loves him a lot.

It's a joke. Most of the girls that supposedly love Hayate have caused a similar, if not worse, level of pain to him, but only Athena gets tarred with the "abusive girlfriend" brush.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

When did Hayate protect a girl being attacked in the past? It was Izumi's doll that was being attacked, Lucky never gave indication that he was interested in attacking Izumi herself.

Oh really? I think you should check again.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by musouka

The EotW arc was a retcon in order to show exactly how Hayate learned many of the skills and tendencies that would later form the basis of his personality. Unless you think the girls love Hayate for his amazing art forgery detection skills, then, yes, part of the reason they love Hayate is what Athena taught him.

Yes, they love him for his fighting skills and for his butlering skills. Considering those are what we're shown that she spent most of her time teaching him. Not the personality that he notably didn't have while he was with Athena even at the end.

Oh wait, only one of the girls in his harem even know of his sword skills (Izumi) and only a few know of his butlering skills, though they do assume he's pretty good at such skills, being a butler of the Sanzenin. They also assume by the same token that he'd know 'finishing moves' though by his own words he doesn't.

Originally Posted by musouka

Hina doesn't know the full story, and was judging Athena based on a single aspect of what happened. Or would you agree that Hina is "violent and irrational" if another character said that based on what Hayate told them about her?

Given that that was clearly shown to be a significant memory of his, as his wording indicates, and not a 'one-of' case by the same token, this would be a logical conclusion, and rather accurately so.
Hina is violent, but irrational? I've only seen one case of her being so, and supposedly the sword was the cause of that (I have my doubts).
Punishing the one you care for and think loves you for showing affection to someone else is common everywhere.

Originally Posted by musouka

When Hina met Athena herself, she was obviously very fond of her and didn't think of her as a witch. On the contrary, she wanted to be closer friends with her.

Hina is the one who heard those words, got it confirmed that Athena was the one he had mentioned there, and yet shows no regret in those words.
'Witch' does not mean 'evil and I'd never associate with that person'. Notice that Hina has a significantly different personality than Athena, and that their friendship was broken off because of a name Hina wanted to use. Doesn't sound like it was a very strong friendship in the first place.

Originally Posted by musouka

Hayate had been around his brother for several years (I assume), but it took Athena's encouragement and "words" in order for him to turn around and help save Izumi. Hayate's bro might have been a good example, but Hayate himself wonders if he can live up to the example his brother set. Whereas, when Hayate was with Athena, he wanted to live up to the example she set, and saw the strength of mind he was gaining by being around her.

And Athena set the example of protecting someone else where? She's never shown interacting with anyone but Hayate, Ikuza or Machina, always on a one-on-one interaction and they all seem to be treated to be on the low side of the relationship.
It took Ikuza's words to make him want to go back after hurting Athena.

Originally Posted by musouka

Love is more than words.

It's a joke. Most of the girls that supposedly love Hayate have caused a similar, if not worse, level of pain to him, but only Athena gets tarred with the "abusive girlfriend" brush.

Most of what we're given of Hayate's relationship with Athena is her attacking him; kicking him in the stomach, attacking him with a lethal sword. A handful of 'neutral' scenes, her teaching him how to be a butler, and another handful of actual affection scenes, asking for a morning kiss. The other scenes are indeterminate.
As opposed to the other girls who's scenes with Hayate are overwhelmingly neutral at worse, while, as a group, the 'abusive' scenes are few and far between and typically no where near the lethal possibility Athena is shown to have.

Originally Posted by musouka

Oh really? I think you should check again.

I don't know about you, but I only see a dog leaping for the doll, which she's likely standing over, since she was fighting for before, and it's shown that she has it in the present, so it's likely that she picked it up after Hayate left as well. And given that all that's needed to turn it away is a call from it's master, it doesn't seem like it's all that interested in that either.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Oo, your 're right, he only thought of her as a "wild beast," not a monster. Sorry, I thought he'd use monster instead of "wild beast" to emphasize her strength. But I like "wild beast" better, cuz you know..it has a little craziness and madness also which is always fun.

You are aware that Hayate actually never thought that, right? That was merely Hina's worry. Hayate thinks of Hina as a "cute, charming and way too defenseless girl".

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Mentar

You are aware that Hayate actually never thought that, right? That was merely Hina's worry. Hayate thinks of Hina as a "cute, charming and way too defenseless girl".

Nope, not her worries. She is a wild beast, at least when she is in a competition.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hayate...er/c222/8.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hayate...er/c222/9.html

[Mentar]

As I said, you're misunderstanding this scene. These are only Hina's thoughts, this is NOT what actually happens. She believes that if she plays to her normal potential, Hayate will come to see her as a non-girly wild beast. Therefore she does NOT and rather botches the reception of the ball.