Valvrave the Liberator - Spoilers & Speculation based on Previews, Website etc.

[Key Board]

well.. the thing is that L-Elf's bargaining position is really that much better
They need L-Elf more than he needs them
Most of the ideas come from him
They're really too dependent on him
It's sad when Haruto's response to things is "L-Elf will think of something"

I think it is noticeable when Shoko is not here to balance out the L-Elf-ism

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by KleenexGhost

That's a good example of what I meant in terms of not telling people important parts of the plan until things happen. But then again he may not have known those kids would show up.

Oh, I think he knew they would show up, he brought two people with him to infiltrate the army ranks probably knowing that kids in Karlstein patrolled in pairs. I just think that not only is L-elf a man of few words (he didn't seem to explain much to his old Dorssian teammates either), but he also he seems to have a "need to know" policy. When he feels you need to know, he'll tell you, before that, you'll just have to wait. Or else you could probably ask him, and he might just tell you.

I actually know a few people like that that don't speak at all and handle everything on their own, but if you take the time to ask them, they will give you an answer. They're actually not aware that they're keeping you out of the loop, they just have a one track mind. I find it interesting that the JIOR kids complain about L-elf not telling them anything, but don't actually go and ask him anything.

Originally Posted by mangakid95

Don't know about that "harsh military perspective," but in a "keeping the secret from leaking out" PoV, shooting her was the logical course of action. The less people that know, the better.

I'd feel much more at ease if I silence a person who knows a valuable secret rather than to "trust" that person to keep the secret. Also considering the scale of the secret, could you blame him for the damage control.

Marie would've in all likelihood told Shoko & the resulting breach of trust could make everything fall apart. Not only that, but supposing she's caught & interrogated. That secret would also sell out one of their few advantages in this war. So the smaller the circle that know, the easier it is for damage control.

By harsh military perspective, I mean that he's brought up as a Nazi-esque special agent in which the thinking is pretty much everyone is expendable if it's for the greater good. Women and children have no greater meaning than anyone else, and if you're a liability you are gotten rid of, no matter who you are. The idea that the completion of the mission, the accomplishment of the goal is more important than anything else, it doesn't matter how many die, are killed or sacrificed in the process.

All those reasons that you listed would have compromised the integrity of the mission and L-11 won't have that. Also, just Marie telling anyone else could be a liability considering that I don't think the other members of the traveling party would treat Haruto and friends the same way if they found they weren't human anymore. Humans fear what they don't understand, and having everyone know would have eventually led to chaos.

[~BC~]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

Don't know about that "harsh military perspective," but in a "keeping the secret from leaking out" PoV, shooting her was the logical course of action. The less people that know, the better.

I'd feel much more at ease if I silence a person who knows a valuable secret rather than to "trust" that person to keep the secret. Also considering the scale of the secret, could you blame him for the damage control.

Marie would've in all likelihood told Shoko & the resulting breach of trust could make everything fall apart. Not only that, but supposing she's caught & interrogated. That secret would also sell out one of their few advantages in this war. So the smaller the circle that know, the easier it is for damage control.

I get the whole "keeping secrets" thing. My thing is L-Elf wasn't privy to the whole conversation and could've potentially killed someone who could help them get answers. The implications of that don't just disappear because she didn't die.

Contrary to what a lot of badly written war anime would have you think there is more thought put into military decisions than "kill the threat".

[KleenexGhost]

Thunder would probably say "I don't feel like asking him!"

And I get what you mean by L-Elf possibly being so focused on the plan and handling everything on his own resulting in him subconsciously keeping people out of the loop. It's worked before in the series but I don't think it's gonna work that well this time.

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by ~BC~

I get the whole "keeping secrets" thing. My thing is L-Elf wasn't privy to the whole conversation and could've potentially killed someone who could help them get answers. The implications of that don't just disappear because she didn't die.

Fair point, but he probably has a plan already set for getting his answers. My best bet being that when Haruto found the "creators" of the Valvrave, L-Elf would've also gathered information from them. So he probably calculated that Marie's information was inferior/not necessary & gambled on it by killing her.

Contrary to what a lot of badly written war anime would have you think there is more thought put into military decisions than "kill the threat".

Well considering he's from Karlstein & was taught to "Kill all." It seems that Dorssia's alphanumerical agents are the type that carry out missions with "keep no prisoners" orders. They are in other words, special ops compared to the rest of the Dorssian military.

Their mission in episode 1 alone was an allusion to their spec ops position. "Be covert & complete the mission, if cover is blown, dispose of any/all witnesses."

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

Well considering he's from Karlstein & was taught to "Kill all." It seems that Dorssia's alphanumerical agents are the type that carry out missions with "keep no prisoners" orders. They are in other words, special ops compared to the rest of the Dorssian military.

Their mission in episode 1 alone was an allusion to their spec ops position. "Be covert & complete the mission, if cover is blown, dispose of any/all witnesses."

That's true, the Karlstein institute graduates that are in special ops seems to be above the regular Dorssian military and aren't put to the same regulations as the others. You can see how Cain fudges the rules at a whim and how the kids can come in on any mission if they want, and no one can really say anything to them. They are the best of the best for a reason.

[shadow1296]

well they maybe the best of the best but they are also a double edge sword because cain wants his students to eventually betray him, he was downright proud of l-elf to even want to fight him(well that's impression i got) and not to mention that not all of them who complete the training are mentally stable q-vier seems like he just start shooting anyone who came in his line of fire not caring weather they were his allies or his enemies

[~BC~]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

Fair point, but he probably has a plan already set for getting his answers. My best bet being that when Haruto found the "creators" of the Valvrave, L-Elf would've also gathered information from them. So he probably calculated that Marie's information was inferior/not necessary & gambled on it by killing her.

Why gamble? That would just make him an even bigger fool.

Well considering he's from Karlstein & was taught to "Kill all." It seems that Dorssia's alphanumerical agents are the type that carry out missions with "keep no prisoners" orders. They are in other words, special ops compared to the rest of the Dorssian military.

Their mission in episode 1 alone was an allusion to their spec ops position. "Be covert & complete the mission, if cover is blown, dispose of any/all witnesses."

This is why the military portrayal in this show is bunk. If they were after the technology it makes no sense to kill the people involved with it. "Oh, they can just reverse engineer it" doesn't work as an excuse because the progress could be expedited by keeping those individuals around to glean more information; instead of having your scientists scratching their heads about why the machine is humanoid.

The Dorssia boys would be closer to Black Ops except for the part where their connection to the Dorssian military is completely transparent. So maybe a mix of both.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by shadow1296

well they maybe the best of the best but they are also a double edge sword because cain wants his students to eventually betray him, he was downright proud of l-elf to even want to fight him(well that's impression i got) and not to mention that not all of them who complete the training are mentally stable q-vier seems like he just start shooting anyone who came in his line of fire not caring weather they were his allies or his enemies

It's not that he expects his students/team to betray him. It was obvious when they said that L-elf was the first graduate of Karlstein ever to betray Dorssia, that the Karlstein students are bred to be loyal to their country. Even someone like A-drei who wants to place the monarchy back in control, is still loyal to Dorssia as a whole. I even think that L-elf though working with Neo Jior, holds a loyalty to Dorssia. If he didn't care about his country, he wouldn't care about trying to change things there through a revolution.

I think what Cain meant when he graded L-11 high on being able to attack to kill his superior, was simply the fact that L-11 could do this without hesitation. He was not sentimental or let his emotions get in the way, it would show one's loyalty to the mission or to Dorssia alone, if he had to ability to do this. Most soldiers would hesitate to attack their former teacher, even if that teacher was guilty of a crime. The fact that L-elf could do so, is admirable and so he was given a high grade. It shows that he's able to get the job done, no matter the obstacle in his way.

I think all the others in his team would have hesitated out of loyalty or fear, so L-elf would excel in this area.

And if you really want to get down to it, none of them are mentally healthy, you wouldn't expect them to be considering their upbringing. Q-vier is just more obvious than the others.

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by ~BC~

Why gamble? That would just make him an even bigger fool.

You do realize that up until Marie got shot, she didn't know anything? Also, those same scientists behind the VVV project that Haruto wants to meet most likely have the data they complied while researching Marie plus every other student that has potential to become a magius/kamitsuki over the three year period that she doesn't recall.

Why get information from a grunt/underling (limited info [i.e. She'll only know what they wanted her to know]), when you can get all that plus more from the source?

She was useless up until she got shot, maybe now she's regained those memories, but that's only because of the "foolish" shot that you spoke of.

In conclusion, your point has been debunked.

This is why the military portrayal in this show is bunk. If they were after the technology it makes no sense to kill the people involved with it. "Oh, they can just reverse engineer it" doesn't work as an excuse because the progress could be expedited by keeping those individuals around to glean more information; instead of having your scientists scratching their heads about why the machine is humanoid.

The Dorssia boys would be closer to Black Ops except for the part where their connection to the Dorssian military is completely transparent. So maybe a mix of both.

Reverse engineering isn't difficult. They just need to scrap it & see the mechanism behind it for themselves. The Kirchbaums were reversed engineered from VVV II in two months, I wouldn't call that "scratching their heads."

Also Jior is occupied by Dorssia now, while L-Elf & Co. killed the scientists present at the school, if there were other scientists absent at the time they are still alive & are now "owned/employed" by Dorssia. So not all the VVV project personnel is dead.

The Dorssian kids are Spec Ops, that much is established. Their alphanumerical identities alone are enough to show that they are not regular military. So the regular military having no knowledge of them is understandable. They are "ghosts" within their own army.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

It's not that he expects his students/team to betray him. It was obvious when they said that L-elf was the first graduate of Karlstein ever to betray Dorssia, that the Karlstein students are bred to be loyal to their country. Even someone like A-drei who wants to place the monarchy back in control, is still loyal to Dorssia as a whole. I even think that L-elf though working with Neo Jior, holds a loyalty to Dorssia. If he didn't care about his country, he wouldn't care about trying to change things there through a revolution.

I think what Cain meant when he graded L-11 high on being able to attack to kill his superior, was simply the fact that L-11 could do this without hesitation. He was not sentimental or let his emotions get in the way, it would show one's loyalty to the mission or to Dorssia alone, if he had to ability to do this. Most soldiers would hesitate to attack their former teacher, even if that teacher was guilty of a crime. The fact that L-elf could do so, is admirable and so he was given a high grade. It shows that he's able to get the job done, no matter the obstacle in his way.

I think all the others in his team would have hesitated out of loyalty or fear, so L-elf would excel in this area.

And if you really want to get down to it, none of them are mentally healthy, you wouldn't expect them to be considering their upbringing. Q-vier is just more obvious than the others.

True, X-eins doesn't even want to think Cain is doing anything wrong, let alone attack him even if it was needed. It's why H-neun and X-eins now have a gap in their friendship.

[~BC~]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

In conclusion, your point has been debunked.

Except I was talking about Marie being able to talk to Pino. They were trying to get her to talk and that's why Haruto's interest was piqued in the first place.

Why get information from a grunt/underling (limited info [i.e. She'll only know what they wanted her to know]), when you can get all that plus more from the source?

So they can tell you what the data means. This should've been obvious by how L-Elf is still working on theories despite having access to said data. Quite frankly this is an incredibly careless thing to say. Things like counter terrorism would get nowhere by just ditching the grunts.

Reverse engineering isn't difficult. They just need to scrap it & see the mechanism behind it for themselves. The Kirchbaums were reversed engineered from VVV II in two months, I wouldn't call that "scratching their heads."

When it could've been a month. But hey, I guess it's lucky for them that New JIOR is sticking to it's guns on not sharing their technology with ARUS.

The Dorssian kids are Spec Ops, that much is established. Their alphanumerical identities alone are enough to show that they are not regular military. So the regular military having no knowledge of them is understandable. They are "ghosts" within their own army.

Everyone knows who they are that's why you see soldier's mentioning them in episode 1, 2 and 9. You were talking about covert "take no prisoner" methods regarding witnesses which is why I mentioned Black Ops since their methods are more shady (not to mention the nature of Karlstein itself).

[Irenesharda]

You know I was going back in some of the past episodes, and I realized that L-elf has just disproved one of the ways that he had presumed you could kill Haruto (and the other pilots), which was back in episode 7, he says that he assumes even Haruto wouldn't survive a bullet to the head. However, we now see with Marie as our example, that Haruto and all the other pilots would actually in fact probably survive that.

So, could it also be possible that the immortals can survive decapitation? I mean, after two hundred years, no enemy has tried to kill Saki by decapitating her?

[amethystjewel]

Spoiler for Spoiler for Saki's manga:

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Found it on 4chan.

[Key Board]

It certainly lives up to its Ryuusei no Otome
This spinoff is emphasizing the otome/"maiden" parts of her self

[erika4dsl]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

So, could it also be possible that the immortals can survive decapitation? I mean, after two hundred years, no enemy has tried to kill Saki by decapitating her?

I always imagined that even if Haruto was decapitated he'll like grow a new head lol or his severed head would connect itself back into his body like time rewinds for his body.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

So, could it also be possible that the immortals can survive decapitation? I mean, after two hundred years, no enemy has tried to kill Saki by decapitating her?

They were obviously killed before they succeeded.

[iCK]

Can we get a summary of what happened in the Saki manga that made her cry? Other than the fact he chose to fed on L-Elf. Haruto better not had said that he does not love Saki. If so, he burnt all bridges.

[Golos]

Originally Posted by iCK

Can we get a summary of what happened in the Saki manga that made her cry?

It was (probably) "let us, me and L-elf be alone together."
This line was posted on /a/ when we got the first spoilers for chapter five.

[NeutralZero]

For her to call Haruto stupid... just what the hell did he?