Ichimaru - hate or ... like?

[mebidtt13]

Gin is the best! He's my favorite character from Bleach! xD

[Langus]

Check out my awesome sig - how can you NOT love this guy? hahaha

[Kafriel]

If you knew what Gin did as a little academy boy you'd definitely hate him, but I ain't saying anything coz I'm a spoiler saint xD
Anyway,I still like him because I think in the end he'll hook up with rangiku and just forget about aizen's evil plans-after all he's strong enough to be independent.

[CollectDust]

Simple answer. Like. He's too elite to go on my hate list. Sorry.

[Alien Blender]

Ichimaru is awesome. He's like the Bleach version of Orochimaru (and not just the 'chimaru' part).
Just disturbing enough to be awesome.

[King Lycan]

Well i hated him till

Spoiler for Manga Spoiler:

He said he was happy that Kira was ok in the manga ..i know its weird

[Mattelajn]

You don't see him alot in the series so I don't think he deserves the right to be liked/disliked

[Kafriel]

He pointed a sword at Rukia after taunting her before the execution, he got that annoying evil grin with his eyes always closed, talks funny and well,is a villain...the only good thing he ever did was picking up Kira from his emo world
oh,also

Spoiler:

he mercilessly killed a ton of people during the pendulum chapters, and he was only a kid at the time

oddly enough I voted for "like"

[Langus]

Originally Posted by HassenSekkai

He pointed a sword at Rukia after taunting her before the execution, he got that annoying evil grin with his eyes always closed, talks funny and well,is a villain...the only good thing he ever did was picking up Kira from his emo world
oh,also

Spoiler:

he mercilessly killed a ton of people during the pendulum chapters, and he was only a kid at the time

oddly enough I voted for "like"

Correction.

Spoiler for Spoiler:

He killed one person. The former 3rd seat because Aizen convinced him to do it. I've written a pretty lengthy post earlier in this thread about my theories on Gin not being a villain and being manipulated by Aizen. The fact that Aizen had control over him since the time he was a small child makes this even more likely. At that age I don't think he had the cognitive awareness to understand that what he did was inherently wrong. Particularly if Aizen presented it to him as a challenge or a game ("Oh? You're strong? Just how strong are you? Why don't you show me so I believe you") Gin would have approached it as exactly that. If you look at the scene immediately following the killing, read his response. He's smiling saying the guy was "no big deal". Are those the words of a sadistic killer or a child who'd met an established challenge to prove that they were just as strong as they said they were?

[Kafriel]

My bad,got confused coz of the

Spoiler:

10 missing robes on the next one.

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by King Lycan

Well i hated him till

Spoiler for Manga Spoiler:

He said he was happy that Kira was ok in the manga ..i know its weird

Yes but he was being sarcastic

Spoiler for Spoilerish:

Kira was anything but happy at that time.

There is no good in him. I like him that way.

[Langus]

Originally Posted by hakisak

Yes but he was being sarcastic

Spoiler for Spoilerish:

Kira was anything but happy at that time.

There is no good in him. I like him that way.

I was fairly certain that the sentiment was "doing well" not "happy" - those have very different connotations.

And how do you know he was being sarcastic when you're reading plain text? It's impossible to know that.

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by Langus

I was fairly certain that the sentiment was "doing well" not "happy" - those have very different connotations.

And how do you know he was being sarcastic when you're reading plain text? It's impossible to know that.

Did Kira look like he was "doing well" or "happy" or "ok" at that moment?

He's still seething and hurt over Ichimaru's betrayal. Just his named invoked a lot of emotion. None of the emotions he displayed were good.

Gin is a sadist among other things. He gets off on mental cruelty. So he was happy or feeling good if you want to put that way. He was feeling good about the fact that Kira was miserable. He was being sarcastic. I am not just looking at the "text". I am actually looking at the character's behaivor...

[Langus]

Originally Posted by hakisak

Did Kira look like he was "doing well" or "happy" or "ok" at that moment?

He's still seething and hurt over Ichimaru's betrayal. Just his named invoked a lot of emotion. None of the emotions he displayed were good.

Gin is a sadist among other things. He gets off on mental cruelty. So he was happy or feeling good if you want to put that way. He was feeling good about the fact that Kira was miserable. He was being sarcastic. I am not just looking at the "text". I am actually looking at the character's behaivor...

I think you are one of the few people I've seen who read that scene that way. From what I can tell, most people read that scene the way I did - taking it as it was.

Gin's comments are meant as a reflection of how Kira has handled himself since Gin's departure. Before Kira was the type of person who allowed himself to be blindly led. I think it's clear that he feels some guilt over the fact that he didn't question his superior. If he had things might have turned out differently.

Since Gin's departure Kira has stepped up as the temporary leader of squad 3. He acts with authority and confidence. I think THIS is what Gin's comment of "he's doing well" refers to. He wasn't speaking of Kira in that moment or the fact that he was upset, he was speaking to how Kira has changed and the strength of character (courage) he's developed.

At the end of the day, you read Gin's every action and every move as a character in the complete mirror image of how I do. In him you see a sadist and you refuse to look deeper than that. In him I see more depth of character. There is no black and white when it comes to him - Gin is all grey matter and none of it easily understood or compartmentalized. Because of that you and I will never agree on what his actions mean or how they should be interpreted.

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by Langus

I think you are one of the few people I've seen who read that scene that way. From what I can tell, most people read that scene the way I did - taking it as it was. .

Really? That could be because too many people rely soley on text. They don't take character personality and behaivor into account as well.



I might have taken it "as it was". if Gin wasn't a murdering sadist and Kira actually looked happy.

Originally Posted by Langus

I
Gin's comments are meant as a reflection of how Kira has handled himself since Gin's departure. Before Kira was the type of person who allowed himself to be blindly led. I think it's clear that he feels some guilt over the fact that he didn't question his superior. If he had things might have turned out differently. .

Kira didn't look blindly led to me. He looked like he was in agreement. The only time he showed remorse is when Hinamori hurt. He didn't blink at the massacre of Rm 46. He's not the innocent sheep you think he is. Kira is obviously not over Ichimaru's abandoment/betrayal...if he was he wouldn't have gotten so angry.

Was it loyalty and pain because of it? Was it hatred? whatever it was he wasn't feeling warm and fuzzy...

Originally Posted by Langus

Since Gin's departure Kira has stepped up as the temporary leader of squad 3. He acts with authority and confidence. I think THIS is what Gin's comment of "he's doing well" refers to. He wasn't speaking of Kira in that moment or the fact that he was upset, he was speaking to how Kira has changed and the strength of character (courage) he's developed. .

Um...How would Gin know all of that? He's been gone for awhile. Kira has always exuded confidence.

Did you read Kira's "Don't forgive me speech"? At that moment... That was not confidence.

Originally Posted by Langus

At the end of the day, you read Gin's every action and every move as a character in the complete mirror image of how I do. In him you see a sadist and you refuse to look deeper than that. In him I see more depth of character. There is no black and white when it comes to him - Gin is all grey matter and none of it easily understood or compartmentalized. Because of that you and I will never agree on what his actions mean or how they should be interpreted.

I think you think you refuse to see him for what he really is...

He's a killer. We've seen him get off on cruelty. He tortured Rukia, he made sure she saw # 9 Do you honestly believe he wanted to give her shock theraphy and help her to overcome her issues regarding Kaien?

No he did it because it would fuck Rukia up mentally. He gets his rocks that way. I have looked deeply at him and what I see is ugly. He's not some misunderstood guy who deep down inside posseses a heart. He's evil incarnate...He gets off on the suffering of others.

You keep trying to dress him up in noble trappings. Which doesn't work because he's a murdering sadist. You know not everyone has complex layers. Some people are just what they appear to be and nothing more.

You are right, you and I will never agree.

[Kafriel]

Um...How would Gin know all of that?

Gin saw that Kira abides by the 3rd squad's morals all too well, so he sees Kira is fit to be a captain now.Maybe abandoning him was also an act of "war", to remind him how sad it is or something.He changed from the happy-go-lucky guy hanging out with Renji and Hinamori to the lone leader of 3rd squad.

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by HassenSekkai

Gin saw that Kira abides by the 3rd squad's morals all too well, so he sees Kira is fit to be a captain now.Maybe abandoning him was also an act of "war", to remind him how sad it is or something.He changed from the happy-go-lucky guy hanging out with Renji and Hinamori to the lone leader of 3rd squad.

Um...No he left because the jig was up and SS was about get in their asses. Kira became Gin's vice because he could be used. Not because Gin has extreme faith in him.

Who are y'all talking about...Gintoki because it isn't Ichimaru. Must be some other Gin...

[Langus]

HassenSekkai has a point. It was entirely possible for Gin to see how much his subordinate had grown based on how he was acting. The Kira in that showdown scene and the Kira he'd known in SS were two very different people.

It's alright to have a divergent opinion, you know. You may like your view of Gin but that doesn't mean it's the only one, or necessarily the correction one. Catch my drift?

[twkiwilee]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

If you knew what Gin did as a little academy boy you'd definitely hate him, but I ain't saying anything coz I'm a spoiler saint xD
Anyway,I still like him because I think in the end he'll hook up with rangiku and just forget about aizen's evil plans-after all he's strong enough to be independent.

I like your last sentence.. yeah.. seriously who cares about aizen..

After seeing the little boy gin only makes me want to hug him even more. He's so adorable!

[Meisterdieb]

I would have preferred it if the poll had defined the options a little more clear-cut.

Do I like Ichimaru Gin? What do you mean?
That I think he's great and want to be best buddies with him?
Or that I think he's a fanatstic character.

Because those two are completely different (maybe not mutually exclusive for some).

I think Gin makes a great antagonist in Bleach with the way the characterized him; but I'm still hoping he'll die a very messy death and then I can dance on his grave.