Shakugan no Shana III - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[SkyFlames]

Sydonay does look much weaker in previous seasons (like when Margery almost killed him... twice) because he didn't have the Shitetsu Nyoi (his spear) which is undestructible, at the same time that it can get as large as he want and take the form that he desires. Yes, he had it back at ending of SnS II, but that was anime original so isn't really loyal to the novels.

Oh, and he can also lose arms, legs, even 1 side of his chest without dying, since he can regenerate it as simply as breathing.

[Nightengale]

Xanadu provides sustenance for survival, thus removing the need for consumption of human lives there. So theoretically, it satisfies everyone's most basic needs. No humans need to die, no more balance of the world at stake, no reason for 'main reason' Flame Hazes and Denizens fight.

In theory anyway.

I mean, if there's one thing this series has shown, it's that satisfying the base needs for survival alone won't satisfy everyone, especially since there's a lot of colourful characters in both sides who cares more for just their own lives.

I mean, Sabrac would probably never be satisfied with Xanadu, as a warrior.

Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist

I don't think it's quite that. Afterall, that would be a reason for Flame Hazes to still exist, but not a reason for them to oppose the Snake's plan, because if he provides a world flowing with Power of Existence, the number of Denizens who would bother to consume humans would be drastically reduced. So even if there were still a few Denizens who would do so out of greed or just for fun, things would still be much better.

I think the problem he had with it, or part of it, was that if Denizens continued to eat Power of Existence, it might cause a cataclysm in the new world (which is seemingly going to have humans in it) thus killing all the humans there. Though I also think they are still a bit concerned about whether the Snake can manage this in the first place, I think their view is that even if he DOES succeed, it could just lead to a disaster for all the humans in the new world.

Personally, I highly doubt Yuuji didn't take that into consideration. I'm suspecting he's doing what he did to Shana ( not revealing the Grand Order to her ) to the rest of Bal Masque as well while still hiding certain things.

I mean, the Denizens are overall... a pretty bloodthirsty bunch.

Imagine if during the Declaration, he told them "By the way, there are several terms and conditions that you have to obey in Xanadu. First, you must be kind to each other-"

[Marcus H.]

I think I understood why Sabrac chose to die at the presence of the Snake of the Festival.
Remember that he was the idol that caused Mare to seek power like a firefly approaching an oil lamp, and as he carried the regret of causing the death of someone he considers as precious, he found himself in the same shoes as Mare — engulfed by a force much greater than he can possibly attain.

It's a poor story between the two, actually.

As for the Xanadu, I'm pretty sure that there are certain compromises.
Like how Madoka Magica's "Rule Rewrite" event created new foes for the Puellae Magi, this new world would have new challenges for its inhabitants.

[Senshigeia]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I think I understood why Sabrac chose to die at the presence of the Snake of the Festival.
Remember that he was the idol that caused Mare to seek power like a firefly approaching an oil lamp, and as he carried the regret of causing the death of someone he considers as precious, he found himself in the same shoes as Mare — engulfed by a force much greater than he can possibly attain.

It's a poor story between the two, actually.

Also he was very powerful. I think it was the first time he felt fear, and like Marcus H. said so well, he felt like Mare should have felt. That reminds me, I have to re-watch the Mare episodes, from season II, because I have no idea of her mentioning Sabrac.

[jahern]

Even if Xanadu is created, and the denizens are happy there, some will still go into this world and take power of existence from here as before, if there are no flame hazes to stop them. Creating this new world is like a policy of appeasement, which didn't work before WW2. Xanadu will surely only make them crave power more, since they would be so used to it in their 'paradise' world anyway.

[Rising Dragon]

Hilariously enough, when going to a cousin's wedding yesterday, I passed a road labeled "Xanadu". >.>

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by jahern

Even if Xanadu is created, and the denizens are happy there, some will still go into this world and take power of existence from here as before, if there are no flame hazes to stop them. Creating this new world is like a policy of appeasement, which didn't work before WW2. Xanadu will surely only make them crave power more, since they would be so used to it in their 'paradise' world anyway.

Not exactly, do you think Yuji would even allow them free access in and out? The world is going to be built in a sealed dimension. If the SoF had trouble getting out, a bunch of peons isn't going to make it out.

[Chris38]

I have to say that was a pretty awesome episode, I especially enjoyed Sydonay's fight with Shana and Wilhelmina and how the Flame Haze have tricked the Bal Masque forces into believing that they escaped, while in reality, they actually stayed in that place.

Now, unto the things that disappointed me, a little bit - well I can't understand why the Flame Haze want to continue fighting, despite given quite a nice (while definitely not perfect, since I'm quite sure that Yuji's plan has some negative points, which will most likely be revealed in the next episode)...

So, while I'm quite aware of the fact that Yuji needs some opposition in realizing his plans for the next 10 episodes, but it doesn't change the fact that the Flame Haze's reason to continue fighting seems a bit forced to me... we will see if the next episode will change my opinion on that matter.

[Triple_R]

My view on Flame Hazes vs. Tomogara are that the two sides have been fighting each other for soooo long that it's become like the Hatfields vs. the McCoys writ large.

This is where I think Sophie, Shana, and the other Flame Hazes should really stop and ask themselves "Am I really making the right decision in choosing to fight against Snake of the Festival and the Tomogara? Am I doing this because it's the right thing to do, or am I doing this because fighting tomogara is now all I know, and I can't break the habit?"

OTOH, it's not as if the Tomogara are trying to enter into peace negotiations with the Flame Hazes. They mercilessly and relentlessly hunted down the desperately fleeing Flame Hazes, even when they had them badly beat. They came across as decidedly bloodthirsty. So, again, it's the Hatfields vs. the McCoys, for both sides.


Honestly, it's very hard to see how Snake of the Festival can be stopped. I mean, Sydonay now seems practically invincible, and Snake of the Festival would have to at least be on par with him. Then there's Hecate and Bel Peol. The impression I took from the first two seasons of Shana was that Shana, Wilhelmina, and Margery Daw were each close to even matches for each of Hecate, Sydonay, and Bel Peol, but that certainly doesn't appear to be the case any more. Unless Sophie has some grand trump card up her sleeve, her side of the war now seems hopelessly outmatched. That is a concern I have going forward (as an eight-episode curbstomp could get old fast) but I'm going to trust that the narrative will find a way to even the odds again.


The action scenes of Episode 15 were truly excellent, and I was impressed at how good a job the episode did in handling a large protagonist cast without it feeling like anybody was shafted screen time-wise or development-wise. Margery Daw's dramatic return couldn't have been executed any better, and that was loads of fun to watch. The pacing was also just about perfect.

However, there are certain chinks in the plot armor (mainly ones that I've already touched on) that I saw in this episode that I didn't see in the last, so I take off one mark to give Episode 15 9/10.

[Guardian Enzo]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that, RRR. It really sounds to me as if the flame haze are fighting because fighting the crimson lords is what they do. I'm still not sure why I'm supposed to think this plan Yuji stakes his existence to isn't the best thing for everybody.

[Reckoner]

Well like I said last episode as well, I see absolutely no reason to hold any stock in the flame haze's side of the story. They pretty much have a "don't rock the boat" mentality, and are afraid of change. Just seems like they have not seriously considered an alternative solution yet. Hopefully we'll get more of that next episode.

Anyways, another pretty good episode. It's quite unfortunate that JC staff ruined the last season so much. This could be so much better if they adapted it better from the get go. Personally I wish everything was like the movie, because that is still the pinnacle of this franchise for me.

Looking forward to more.

[Kristen]

Wow, the arc seems to finally be over? lol, only took 12 episodes.

Though I'm surprised that Margery didn't pack a huge wallop to everyone. I had personally predicted that she'd be the hidden key to turning the tide and her arrival would've signaled the end to the Tomogara. Ah well.

[Deathscyther]

Wow, I didn't expect this to be such a good episode. I'm honestly surprised. 9/10

Even though practically the whole protagonist cast had his/her time to shine, the episode didn't feel rushed at all. The pacing was great. I especially loved the last stand of Samuel and the speech of Centerhill. The animation seemed to be better than usual as well.

Sydonay is to be feared. He shows why he's the general of the army. His Shintetsu Nyoi makes him even stronger than he already seemed. Although Shana, Wilhelmina, Centerhill and Margery were just fighting to hold him back, he still took on the four of them without sustaining too much damage. I think it's safe to say that he's stronger than a fully powered Shana, probably (one of) the strongest flame haze at the moment, even after her power-up.

I wouldn't say that the first two seasons made him look weak though. There was always something stopping him from using his full power:

• During both Margery's flashback and the Aizen arc he wasn't planning on sacrificing his life, so he wasn't giving his all. He quit both battles as soon as his clients were done for. It's just his 'hobby' after all. He wasn't completely focused during these battles as well, because he had to look after his clients. He didn't have his Shintetsu Nyoi with him in both cases as well.

• In the final arc of season 1 both he and Margery had unlimited PoE and their battle would have never ended.

• In the final arc of season 2 Sydonay uses his Shintetsu Nyoi for the first time and 1 hit ko's Margery. While fighting Shana and Wilhelmina he couldn't use his full power because that would damage the statue of pride.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

My view on Flame Hazes vs. Tomogara are that the two sides have been fighting each other for soooo long that it's become like the Hatfields vs. the McCoys writ large.

OTOH, it's not as if the Tomogara are trying to enter into peace negotiations with the Flame Hazes. They mercilessly and relentlessly hunted down the desperately fleeing Flame Hazes, even when they had them badly beat. They came across as decidedly bloodthirsty. So, again, it's the Hatfields vs. the McCoys, for both sides.

I agree with you. It's like fighting each other is a part of their nature now.

If you look at the big picture, both sides have their own reasons for fighting the other side. The flame haze have the 'goal' to protect the balance of the world. They see the eating/creating of PoE as dangerous, because it could upset the balance, so they stop the tomogara from doing so.

While the tomogara are eating/creating PoE for their own reasons (Friagne in order to make Marianne a true existence; Tiriel in order to please Sorath; the trinity in order to free SnH; some probably for fun; etc) Flame haze stand in their way, so naturally the tomogara fight the flame hazes off in order to continue.

At one point though, it seems that hatred took over. A lot of flame haze/tomogara started fighting each other for the sole reason that the opponent is a tomogara or a flame haze (example: Margery killing every tomogara see meets, even the ones that aren't dangerous).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is where I think Sophie, Shana, and the other Flame Hazes should really stop and ask themselves "Am I really making the right decision in choosing to fight against Snake of the Festival and the Tomogara? Am I doing this because it's the right thing to do, or am I doing this because fighting tomogara is now all I know, and I can't break the habit?"

I guess this is where Shana comes in. She's already past this stage. She already made her decision. Like Alastor explained to Yuji during their little fight in episode 13. When Shana formed her contract to be a flame haze, she said: 'The great cause flame haze follow that brings them to battle tomogara: to protect the world's balance. I'll view it myself and determine if it's true. No matter how much everyone loves me....no matter how much I love everyone....If I cannot agree with the great cause, I cannot follow it.'
Alastor even says so: 'this girl is my prized contactor who will walk the difficult path everyone else avoids.'

Shana's reason to fight isn't hatred or to kill tomogara. She wants to protect the balance. Until now she has only fought tomogara who were harmful to this balance and tomogara that attacked her or Yuji.

But if Yuji is able to save the humans (and the tomogara as well) in a way that wouldn't cause the balance in this world to crumble, then that would be fine. It would be great if humans wouldn't disappear anymore...it would be great if she didn't have to kill tomogara anymore. Centerhill even says that the storm in the rift, unstable PoE, as a counter measure against tomogara changing humans in PoE, will return to this world as well. In the end this world, and probably the rift as well, would benefit from Yuji's/SnH's plan. Shana acknowledges this, and so do the gods of the motherland. There is another problem though.

Since Yuji is making his new world in the rift between the worlds, it wouldn't have any effect in this world directly. But would the same hold true for the new world in the rift? There are no guaranties that everything will be fine over there. What will happen in Xanadu? What kind of rules will there be? Will the tomogara still eat/create PoE? Would it cause the balance over there to crumble?

In the end....this world, Guze and Xanadu will be connected. They will all be part of a greater world. So if the balance of one world crumbles, it might affect the other worlds as well. So protecting the balance of this world isn't enough. In order to truly protect the balance, all the worlds have to be save.

Since there are so many questionmarks and mysteries concerning Xanadu, Shana and the gods of the motherland decide to stop it from being created. Xanadu could become a paradise, but it could become a world full with problems as well. There are plenty of things that could go wrong over there. Not all tomogara will want to stop fighting, not all tomogara will be content with stopping to consume PoW. Some tomogara might rebel later on.

As Centerhill says: 'we will fight against the selfish mind creating a new, innocent world.' If it will be just another world which could contain problems, a world which could disrupt the balance of the 'greater world', it's just too risky to let it be created....even if they don't see Yuji's/SnH's plan as wrong.

I think that's the message that was conveyed by Centerhill. And Shana understood this right away. Now she'll have to decide the best course of action and get the others to back her up.

[alvinkhorfire]

There is one insert ED song, sung by Mami Kawada, that is played during the ED of this Episode. If I am not mistaken, it is titled 'u/n'. Is this song the third ED song of this season, after 'I'll Believe' and 'One'? Thanks for the information.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Of course, biggest plus of this ep:

They made Chiara as cute as she is in the novels.

Looking forward to see her and Sale in the future

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Of course, biggest plus of this ep:

They made Chiara as cute as she is in the novels.

Looking forward to see her and Sale in the future

It also helps that she is voiced (by I think that sounds like) Kayano Ai.
edit: ANN says it's her

[Elf song]

Originally Posted by Senshigeia

Also he was very powerful. I think it was the first time he felt fear, and like Marcus H. said so well, he felt like Mare should have felt. That reminds me, I have to re-watch the Mare episodes, from season II, because I have no idea of her mentioning Sabrac.

She did mention him in Shakugan no Shana game for Nintendo DS, in her route. Can't believe she can defeat Tenmoku Ikko in that game (looking back at reality...)

RIP CenterHill and Samuel.

Not a critical spoiler but...in the novel, the scene where Chiara and Sale come and take the trio with them, the purplish thread(s) that grasps Shana's group is Sale's doing. He do send one of the thread to CenterHill too, but he cut it and choose to be left to stall Sydonay. And their last battle is omitted in the novel too.

The scene when Zirnitra says farewell to Samuel and the rain flows past the cup resembling his tears is very touching. Noble death, Samuel Demantius.

Waiting for other three Gods' appearance which should be really soon.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Samuel's death is one of the many tearjerkers in this series....

It's like something that could be said between lovers yet I think their bond is deeper than that

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Deathscyther

In the end....this world, Guze and Xanadu will be connected. They will all be part of a greater world. So if the balance of one world crumbles, it might affect the other worlds as well. So protecting the balance of this world isn't enough. In order to truly protect the balance, all the worlds have to be save.

Since there are so many questionmarks and mysteries concerning Xanadu, Shana and the gods of the motherland decide to stop it from being created. Xanadu could become a paradise, but it could become a world full with problems as well. There are plenty of things that could go wrong over there. Not all tomogara will want to stop fighting, not all tomogara will be content with stopping to consume PoW. Some tomogara might rebel later on.

Nope, it's been confirmed already that the new world will actually restore the current world. It's actually a GOOD thing. They're going off the assumption that Yuji will be creating human life in the new world as well and allowing the Denizens to ravage the inhabitants.

Now the flame hazes are going completely on assumptions, as they have no freaking clue as to what the SoF is going to create on the new world.

Like I said earlier in the thread, Shana hasn't convinced me that even she is sure of her choice with her constantly telling herself that she's doing the right thing over the last few episodes.

TBH, I was grinning when I saw the pan-out of the flame haze corpses, they haven't painted themselves in a good light, they're reasoning as a whole to fight was weak and petty, it's why their resolve broke so easily causing a mass panic.

[Deathscyther]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Nope, it's been confirmed already that the new world will actually restore the current world. It's actually a GOOD thing. They're going off the assumption that Yuji will be creating human life in the new world as well and allowing the Denizens to ravage the inhabitants.

Now the flame hazes are going completely on assumptions, as they have no freaking clue as to what the SoF is going to create on the new world.

Like I said earlier in the thread, Shana hasn't convinced me that even she is sure of her choice with her constantly telling herself that she's doing the right thing over the last few episodes.

TBH, I was grinning when I saw the pan-out of the flame haze corpses, they haven't painted themselves in a good light, they're reasoning as a whole to fight was weak and petty, it's why their resolve broke so easily causing a mass panic.

Yes, it's been confirmed (by Centerhill at least) that the creation of Xanadu will bring back the PoE that was consumed by the tomogara to this world and that the storm in the rift will die down. So the creation of Xanadu is a good thing indeed.

What Centerhill and Shana fear though is what happens after Xanadu is created. Virtually nothing is known about Xanadu. The only things they know is that Yuji said that it will be a copy of this world and that it would be a world specially for the tomogara. Since it will be a copy of this world, a world where the balance is in danger, wouldn't Xanadu face the same problems as this world? It will be a world made for tomogara, so this could mean that lots of PoE will be consumed/used. Wouldn't the balance over there be in danger this way?

This world, Guze and Xanadu will be connected. They will be part of a 'greater world'. So if the balance of one world crumbles, it might affect the other worlds as well. Creating Xanadu won't solve the problem. Xanadu would just become another world which could cause the balance of the 'greater world' to crumble. As Centerhill says: 'we will fight against the selfish mind creating a new, innocent world.' This is why Centerhill and Shana decide to stop Xanadu from being created...and this should be a good enough reason for all flame haze to fight, since they are fighting to protect the balance in the end. Now it's time for the other flame haze to make their choices.

I think Shana is 100% sure about her choice to stop Yuji's/SnH's plan. She doesn't seem to doubt her choice at all. She just isn't sure about how to stop this war, how to save Yuji and how to really solve the problem. Her goal is to make a path where she and Yuji can walk together (her Shana half), while protecting the balance (her flame haze half), after all.