2010-04-06, 02:04 | Link #7681 | ||
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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So the possibilty is: 1. Rosa was in with servants from the beginning, like pre-Oct 4th. 2. Rosa was coerced (by something that goes beyond violence) or bribed afterwards. As for the ring... I suspect the magic scenes of telling us directly that Kinzo DID hand it over to 'Beatrice,' whoever that is. Or whoever the leader of that group is. Actually, I suspect Rosa of being in with the servants from the beginning. It seems like she also knows where the gold is in EP3. I think she and the servants (i.e. "Beatrice") knew in EP2 as well. She also was the one who made the cousins play dead in EP5. http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...BA&output=html As you can see from the First Twilight chart, all episodes start the first twilight with people available in the mansion unless they keep talking to like 3am or later like in EP5. In that case the person or group that makes people play dead had to go through Rosa to reach the others. So it's probably Genji or it's Kumasawa and she had some kind of contingency plan worked out ahead with Genji. But that's less likely than Genji simply being the originator. |
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2010-04-06, 02:08 | Link #7682 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Rosa dies too early to be in on anything with the servants in most games. In my mind, Ep2 is the exception rather than the rule.
You know, if it weren't for Dlanor's 'there are no indications that someone was disguising as Rosa' bit in Ep5, I'd suspect her of having been replaced after she went to Kinzo's study. It'd explain a fair bit, I think. |
2010-04-06, 02:08 | Link #7683 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Besides that doesn't mean that Genji has the ring.
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2010-04-06, 02:11 | Link #7684 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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If Kinzo gave away his ring before he actually died, it could be in that person's hands for quite a while, and it would be less unusual that its disappearance wasn't really a factor for Krauss right after Kinzo died.
If he'd had the ring up until his death, Krauss would be ballistic over someone having taken it from his corpse. If, on the other hand, the ring disappeared some time before, he might make less of a deal about it. I'm sure he'd still want to know where it is... but he couldn't really pin anyone as a potential thief if Kinzo himself disposed of the ring somehow. This is somewhat reasonable given the reaction when Battler has it in ep5. Everybody seems to have a "whoa, where'd you get that?" reaction to it. So it's very possible the ring's been missing a while. Counterpoint to this is the letters in previous episodes; everyone acknowledges that having Kinzo's ring allows the letters to be sealed, but nobody remarks that the ring hasn't been seen in a while. Suggesting that the adults don't know Kinzo doesn't have it, at least. |
2010-04-06, 02:15 | Link #7685 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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I'm pinpointing Genji because he was the one most likely to have discovered the body, and I can see him kind of developing a "must carry on Master's wishes" complex... bah. Quote:
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2010-04-06, 02:17 | Link #7686 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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Considering all the murders that had just occurred anything extra would just make things worse.
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2010-04-06, 02:27 | Link #7687 |
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If Rosa were "let in on it" it would also potentially explain the lack of the body burning in ep2. The issue is explained to her, and she's asked what to do; unlike in other episodes, she decides to do nothing and just keep the body intact until things get sorted out. Since Rosa usually isn't in this position, this normally doesn't happen. Rosa would lack the desperation over the matter that Krauss and Natsuhi might, and now that she's the last sibling alive, it really seems kind of pointless to worry about Kinzo being dead. Likewise, explaining that to the kids would be pointless as well. Exactly why she covers for Genji and Shannon though, I couldn't say, given how distrusting of the servants she is otherwise.
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2010-04-06, 02:37 | Link #7688 | |||
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Also, Rosa may die pretty quickly but if we're talking about her actions up to the first twilight and then include any actions afterwards when she does survive, it seems like there's a lot of hints already. Quote:
So.. it's Gouda after all. He's a convenient fall guy. 8) |
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2010-04-06, 07:11 | Link #7689 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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They were killed after being discovered Besides, if one of them is the culprit, it goes without saying that they would kill everyone except themselves! You are entitled to have your own theory of course but how that denies other theories? In other words I have no problem with your blue, but your blue doesn't do anything to other blues. Quote:
Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa and Gohda cannot be ruled out as culprits and It is possible that George or Jessica stayed a sec behind when everyone rushed to Kanon and properly killed Hideyoshi and Eva. There is not proof that they have always been under Battler's supervision. and It is possible that people were killed much much later, even after the tenth twilight, that means if no one really died before that mark then everyone can be the culprit (except Nanjo, Genji, Kumasawa, Battler, Maria and Natsuhi... and Kinzo)
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2010-04-06 at 07:28. |
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2010-04-06, 08:21 | Link #7690 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Man, this thread moves fast when it wants to move fast. A few full pages in a matter of two days.
On the topic of the ring, I think it's most likely that Beatrice (Shannon) has the ring. Remember, in Episodes 1 and 3, Kinzo goes batshit crazy and throws the ring out the window? It might've not been as dramatic as that, but I think this was supposed to show that the ring moves from Kinzo to Shannon, or in some situations, from Kinzo to Ronove (Genji) to Shannon, like in Episode 3. This ties in with my theory that Shannon has already found the gold. Why would Genji give the ring to Shannon? Following his orders, he should hold on to pass it on to the next heir, Krauss, or until someone solves the epitaph, like Kinzo willed it. But if Shannon has already solved the epitaph and found the gold, she is the next heir, and would earn the ring. |
2010-04-06, 09:30 | Link #7691 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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As prideful as Krauss, it was believable that if Kinzo died with his ring on his finger, he would certainly keep it himself.
However, when we think about it, Kinzo was supposed to go "missing", according to Kinzo and Natsuhi's plan. And because Kinzo supposedly never remove his ring, the ring should go "missing" as well. Although Krauss and Natsuhi might not want to dispose it just like Kinzo's body, the ring should never come to light. Turning the chessboard around, Nanjo or Genji should never have the ring right after Kinzo died because once the witch's first letter came, Krauss and Natsuhi would immediately ask Nanjo or Genji for the whereabouts for the ring. And it was not a matter which can be excused for missing it or being stolen by someone. Nor could it be stolen from Krauss or Natsuhi because the servants would be suspected immediately as well. The most likely case, then, was Krauss and Natsuhi knew that Kinzo had not the ring anymore before his death, maybe he told them he had given it to Beatrice already, or just threw it outside because he did not want his siblings to get it after his death.
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2010-04-06, 10:44 | Link #7692 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Heck I can imagine Natsuhi not letting anyone take it off from him, since she does still regard him as 'alive'. |
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2010-04-06, 12:08 | Link #7693 | ||
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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That means they must have either been dead or playing dead! You would think Battler would say something suggesting that they were faking their deaths. It's like Erika in EP5. They were covered by blankets, so of course she couldn't suspect anything wrong. Imagine if they weren't covered by blankets. Would you still say Erika could have been fooled? Quote:
They locked the room as soon as they left. Unless George or Jessica had access to a master key, they couldn't have opened the door. So you're suggesting that no one died at all? That's ridiculous. It completely disregards Battler's detective authority. Battler saw the wounds of Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, Gohda, Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Natsuhi, which are all fatal. |
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2010-04-06, 13:05 | Link #7694 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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(Left half of head of Krauss + Right half of head of Shannon + jaw of Gohda/Rosa) * glued and smashed together + a wig The body was just a dummy dressing up. You can't just separate the red texts like that. The meaning of body-double depends on its contexts, not your understanding.
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2010-04-06, 13:09 | Link #7695 |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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That sounds pretty elaborate. With the 1st twilight of EP 1 it's the very first group of murders in the entire game. It gives me a feeling that the culprit wanted to really freak everyone out with something so gruesome. If you think about it, all the other murders afterward are pretty clean kills (with the exception of Kumasawa + Genji + Nanjo's murders).
Still I think the fact that the shed was very darkly lit makes me think that Battler could have been fooled by makeup - Knox says the detective authority confirms people as dead, but it says nothing about him being fooled. |
2010-04-06, 13:36 | Link #7696 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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1. The damaged faces of the 1st, 6th, 7th, and 8th twilights in EP1 2. The 1st twilight of EP2 3. Everything after the first twilight in EP3 4. Kinzo's corpse in all Episodes It's strongly hinted that #3 is done by a different culprit, and the first twilight of EP2 is the only time that "the culprit" openly taunts the survivors over the deaths of their loved ones (the letter that Jessica found was totally unlike any other Beatrice letter in all the games). Unless the first culprit had some kind of special grudge against Natsuhi and Jessica that just doesn't show up in any of the other Episodes (this is actually very possible), this was probably done by a different person. I think it should be noted that whoever the "culprit" in the second part of EP3 is, one of the last magic scenes suggests that they openly mocked and toyed with Jessica before killing her, which is why she was able to escape for a while. Also, Kinzo's burnt corpse has often been pointed to as having something to do with the explosion (usually by hiding the stench of some kind of gas), an explosion which seems to contradict the first culprit's goal of creating closed rooms and staking people in a ritualistic way. So, except for the damaged faces in EP1, all murders performed by something other than a simple gunshot (I'm assuming that Maria in EP4 was a suicide or assisted suicide) are in some way connected to the second culprit who takes control in EP3. That makes me think that the murderer had a specific reason for damaging the faces, at least for the 1st twilight. What reason could that be except to hide the fact that one of the "victims" wasn't who or what everything thought it was?
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2010-04-06, 15:29 | Link #7697 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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...Wait. I'm not sure about the EP1 first twilight, but as for the EP2 first twilight, it is quite possible to fake having your intestines dragged out (for instance, like this). So rather than the bodies being mutilated by the culprit, maybe the victims fake-mutilated themselves, and then were stabbed to death afterward or something. If that's true, then it's possible that at the time of the body discovery, some of the fake death conspirators didn't realize that the victims were really dead. That could explain some of Jessica's behavior, and possibly the weird note in the honored guest room.
Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-04-06 at 16:10. |
2010-04-06, 15:36 | Link #7698 | |||
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Partly why I believe this is because I want to trust Ryukishi as an author. It would be a cheap trick to use body doubles, or have fake corpses lying around. Shkanon, to me, seems like another cheap solution. Any puzzle in any game that can be solved by Shkanon can also be solved without Shkanon. Likewise, any murder that can be solved with body doubles can be solved without any body double tricks. Or red-text loopholes or a room "not under a closed room definition". Basically, I trust that Ryukishi has written a fair mystery that doesn't rely on word games or cheap tricks. Quote:
As long as people on the island would believe that, no one would suspect her. Quote:
EP3 obviously has a different culprit framing Eva, and follows the epitaph just to keep up the illusion her predecessor had. EP4 set up Kinzo as the culprit, and barely followed the epitaph at all. So I think there is a connection between gruesome murders and framing Beatrice. |
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2010-04-06, 16:05 | Link #7699 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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After seeing Kinzo's corpse he suggested that any of the corpses could be faked. The "therefore no body double tricks exist" red was referring to the deaths of Genji Kumasawa and Nanjo to say that they were the real people. NOT the first twilight. Also you don't have to misidentify a corpse if they aren't really a corpse. They can still be the same person.
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2010-04-06, 16:20 | Link #7700 | ||
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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EDIT: At first I thought you were talking about the time later on when they suspected someone faked their death Quote:
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