Character Discussion - Kallen

[bladeofdarkness]

gino points it out
questioning whether she would be better off choosing the stadfeld name rather then the name kozuki

[Witacume]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

To be fair, Had C.C. been an important figure like we all thought she was, back in season 1, they would have use it in the story.

The slave girl thing (which was pretty shitty, I have to agree with Wita there, C.C.'s BG being certainly the biggest let down of the whole serie) was just a way to give us something to work with, but it seems obvious that finally it was just a twist to explain her flashbacks.

She could have been Joan d'Arc, some Queen Elisabeth and finally she was a slave girl.
Yeah.
Great.

And Yeah Wita, you're right (BTW how have you been ? :P Been a while ! Even on msn !) ifn it was to get something like that...it's maybe better this way.
But when you see how they used picture drama and CD drama...you just want for your head to meet a wall like NOW.

Yeah I'm doing great! Though Senior year in college makes me have no internet life.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

gino points it out
questioning whether she would be better off choosing the stadfeld name rather then the name kozuki

You bring up a great point. I hate Gino. Though he brings up the point of choosing a name, in which Kallen eventually chooses Kozuki. But this is not before two key things happen.

Item A. Kallen decides to forsake her name for a new last name in Lamperouge.
Kallen in the ever critical Kimi wo Ikirou Scene. Decides to betray the Black knights. She decides that Lelouch is worth more than Japan, and even her own mother, and her brother memory/dream. Which is why She is willing to die ( i would say live as she decides to "live" a real life is to be with Lelouch).

Item B. Lelouch decides by himself (selfish bastard) The best life for the one whom he loves to "live" is to make himself the enemy, so that he can make her dream come true. Which is why he makes up the lies after Kallen exclaims her want to be part of the lamperouge family. Yet Lelouch rejects her for his own notion of whats best for her. He wants for her to live even if that means playing the part of evilness. yet he still wants her to know he care for her even after he died. This is a big deal


Why you may ask.
Lelouch supposed best friend (suzuku) ask why he did the shit he did and Lelouch made no excuses or try to explain.
With CC he was like do whatever the fuck you want in episode 22 once the whole ordeal with Charles was over with. Lelouch was like do what you want.

Lelouch never explain to nunnally or try to act like he care with her knowing with the whole clusterfuck ending.

YET, Lelouch thought he was dying( and he was going to die, if it wasn't for fucking rolo. FUCK ROLO HE FUCKED 3 KEY SCENES) Thus he decided. Kallen was the most important thing in the world to him at that moment thus wanted to save it. The only way was to act the part of evilness. Yet as he was about to be shot, He tells Kallen his true feelings. And Kallen knows it which is why she runs back to be with him in death.

Kallen accepted him till death due them apart, which tragically was very soon. But at that moment they cemented their vows. And they both said I Do.


I should really just post my paper. XD

[Bonzo]

Or, If Kallen knew the truth about lelouch's past, from Marianne death to present, Oh well..

To see a "knight of one" together with Suzaku "knight of zero" was very possible.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Witacume

Item A. Kallen decides to forsake her name for a new last name in Lamperouge.

Kallen never chose the name Lamperouge, she chose Kozuki. She did fall in love with Lelouch, but that doesn't mean she took his last name literally or figuratively.

Kallen in the ever critical Kimi wo Ikirou Scene. Decides to betray the Black knights. She decides that Lelouch is worth more than Japan, and even her own mother, and her brother memory/dream. Which is why She is willing to die ( i would say live as she decides to "live" a real life is to be with Lelouch).

Kallen initially stuck by Lelouch because she hadn't been to the meething between Schneizel and the BK. She wasn't in know Lelouch's questionable methods and so the whole betrayal caught her completely off guard. Yes, her loving him I'm sure had a good deal to do with her standing by him initially, but she also wasn't going to leave him without good reason. To her, he represented the hope and freedom of Japan as well as a future life with her mother and her brother's dream.

Item B. Lelouch decides by himself (selfish bastard) The best life for the one whom he loves to "live" is to make himself the enemy, so that he can make her dream come true. Which is why he makes up the lies after Kallen exclaims her want to be part of the lamperouge family.

I'm sorry? But when did Kallen say, much less exclaim, that she ever wanted to be a member of the Lamperouge family?

Yet Lelouch rejects her for his own notion of whats best for her. He wants for her to live even if that means playing the part of evilness. yet he still wants her to know he care for her even after he died. This is a big deal

You care to expand on that? Actually, Lelouch never had any fool-proof plan that Kallen would know that he cared for her even after he died. Kallen only figured out Lelouch's whole plan through some kind of epiphany of insight after seeing Zerozaku.

Why you may ask.
Lelouch supposed best friend (suzuku) ask why he did the shit he did and Lelouch made no excuses or try to explain.

How can he make no excuses AND try to explain. First off, he did try to explain to Suzaku why he did what he did in Turn 17 (even if some of it was lies) and I'm sure he explained the whole truth to Suzaku during the whole Zero Requiem planning.

With CC he was like do whatever the fuck you want in episode 22 once the whole ordeal with Charles was over with. Lelouch was like do what you want.

Well that's an oversimplification if I ever heard it. Lelouch was still very much attached to Lelouch after Turn 22 and she played a vital role in helping with Zero Requiem. He also wanted to keep her promise to in giving her hope that she would be loved.

Lelouch never explain to nunnally or try to act like he care with her knowing with the whole clusterfuck ending.

He didn't do that with Kallen either.

YET, Lelouch thought he was dying( and he was going to die, if it wasn't for fucking rolo. FUCK ROLO HE FUCKED 3 KEY SCENES) Thus he decided. Kallen was the most important thing in the world to him at that moment thus wanted to save it.

Really? You're positive about that? Kallen was certainly important to him, but you have no way of proving she was the most important person to him in that instance. She was an important person to him and she was a person he could at that time, so he acted like a douche to save her.

The only way was to act the part of evilness. Yet as he was about to be shot, He tells Kallen his true feelings.

He said "live on." It's not necessarily a confession of love, but it does show he cared for her. Also, he didn't expect her to hear it.

And Kallen knows it which is why she runs back to be with him in death.

To the best of my memory she didn't run back to him (if that was the case she probably would've been full of holes) She hesitated and stopped, but I believe that was it.

Kallen accepted him till death due them apart, which tragically was very soon. But at that moment they cemented their vows. And they both said I Do.

Well, if that's your interpretation of it, fine. If they really had "cemented their vows" as you say, in Turn 19, I don't think there would have been all that uncertainty afterwards.

[Witacume]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Kallen never chose the name Lamperouge, she chose Kozuki. She did fall in love with Lelouch, but that doesn't mean she took his last name literally or figuratively.


Kallen initially stuck by Lelouch because she hadn't been to the meething between Schneizel and the BK. She wasn't in know Lelouch's questionable methods and so the whole betrayal caught her completely off guard. Yes, her loving him I'm sure had a good deal to do with her standing by him initially, but she also wasn't going to leave him without good reason. To her, he represented the hope and freedom of Japan as well as a future life with her mother and her brother's dream.


I'm sorry? But when did Kallen say, much less exclaim, that she ever wanted to be a member of the Lamperouge family?


You care to expand on that? Actually, Lelouch never had any fool-proof plan that Kallen would know that he cared for her even after he died. Kallen only figured out Lelouch's whole plan through some kind of epiphany of insight after seeing Zerozaku.


How can he make no excuses AND try to explain. First off, he did try to explain to Suzaku why he did what he did in Turn 17 (even if some of it was lies) and I'm sure he explained the whole truth to Suzaku during the whole Zero Requiem planning.


Well that's an oversimplification if I ever heard it. Lelouch was still very much attached to Lelouch after Turn 22 and she played a vital role in helping with Zero Requiem. He also wanted to keep her promise to in giving her hope that she would be loved.


He didn't do that with Kallen either.


Really? You're positive about that? Kallen was certainly important to him, but you have no way of proving she was the most important person to him in that instance. She was an important person to him and she was a person he could at that time, so he acted like a douche to save her.


He said "live on." It's necessarily a confession of love, but it does show he cared for her. Also, he didn't expect her to hear it.


To the best of my memory she didn't run back to him (if that was the case she probably would've been full of holes) She hesitated and stopped, but I believe that was it.


Well, if that's your interpretation of it, fine. If they really had "cemented their vows" as you say, in Turn 19, I don't think there would have been all that uncertainty afterwards.

Kallen never chose the name Lamperouge, she chose Kozuki. She did fall in love with Lelouch, but that doesn't mean she took his last name literally or figuratively.

Originally Posted by Witacume

You bring up a great point. I hate Gino. Though he brings up the point of choosing a name, in which Kallen eventually chooses Kozuki.

I don't understand your confusion. please elaborate.
I think you have a good head on your shoulders thus i will assume that you mean she love lelouch but not to point of marriage. or else i have no idea what you mean.


I won't toy with semantics because that is what this argument would become.
So lets ditch the whole the whole she choose Lamperouge. I meant this as purely symbolic meaning not a literal hey i just change my name to Lamperouge. what does it mean to change one's name.
This is the basis of the argument in which i thought about when i saw people talk about Gino.
I will concede this probably was not my best work but let me entertain myself a bit.

Kallen initially stuck by Lelouch because she hadn't been to the meething between Schneizel and the BK. She wasn't in know Lelouch's questionable methods and so the whole betrayal caught her completely off guard. Yes, her loving him I'm sure had a good deal to do with her standing by him initially, but she also wasn't going to leave him without good reason. To her, he represented the hope and freedom of Japan as well as a future life with her mother and her brother's dream.

I agree somewhat. It did caught her offguard. Good reason or not. She would stood by him. Case in point she was willing to go to hell with him.

I'm sorry? But when did Kallen say, much less exclaim, that she ever wanted to be a member of the Lamperouge family? Again don't take this literal. This is symbolic. I merely using this as a symbol please do not take it otherwise.

You care to expand on that? Actually, Lelouch never had any fool-proof plan that Kallen would know that he cared for her even after he died. Kallen only figured out Lelouch's whole plan through some kind of epiphany of insight after seeing Zerozaku. I am not talking about the series as a whole. This might be the basis of our misunderstanding. I talking about a single event in history. The whole care part was the kimi wo ikerou.

How can he make no excuses AND try to explain. First off, he did try to explain to Suzaku why he did what he did in Turn 17 (even if some of it was lies) and I'm sure he explained the whole truth to Suzaku during the whole Zero Requiem planning. I going to give you that assumption, with time they would have probably talked about what really happen. So please then give me some assumptin back, and try not to be so black and white. The point i was making is that Lelouch could have told him the whole truth in that moment but he choose not to. Just as CC could have told Lelouch the truth of his mother and Charles plans but choose not to. This changes the whole dynamic of the story. See where i'm going? This is to say Lelouch had no time! Time was not his ally so he thought rationalyl and became the machiavellian prince.

I apologize but i have to go i will respond to the rest inquiries at a later date.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Witacume

I don't understand your confusion. please elaborate.
I think you have a good head on your shoulders thus i will assume that you mean she love lelouch but not to point of marriage. or else i have no idea what you mean.

You too seem to be a reasonable person, and I will be glad to explain. No, I'm not saying that Kallen didn't love Lelouch romantically or to the extent that some day she might want to marry him. I agree 110% with that. I think the main problem is this...

I won't toy with semantics because that is what this argument would become.
So lets ditch the whole the whole she choose Lamperouge. I meant this as purely symbolic meaning not a literal hey i just change my name to Lamperouge. what does it mean to change one's name.
This is the basis of the argument in which i thought about when i saw people talk about Gino.

To me, it does seem that the main problem here is semantics. From your point of view you were just using the whole "Kallen-taking-Lelouch's-name" thing as a clever use of symbolism for her loving him. However, from my point of view, I think that that kind of comparison, even symbolically, is a bit extreme. Loving someone and taking their name, symbolically or otherwise, are not the same thing. But hey, if that's your interpretation then that's fine by me and I'll gladly go along with it.

I agree somewhat. It did caught her offguard. Good reason or not. She would stood by him. Case in point she was willing to go to hell with him.

I acknowledge that. I'm not arguing whether or not she would have gone to hell with him, but the reasons behind it.

I am not talking about the series as a whole. This might be the basis of our misunderstanding. I talking about a single event in history. The whole care part was the kimi wo ikerou.

I'm not sure what you mean by the series as a whole. Your exact words were, "yet he still wants her to know he care for her even after he died. This is a big deal." This seems to indicated a specific instance in the show in which he wanted to ensure that Kallen would know he cared about her, of which I am requesting evidence. This is mainly what I was responding to. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I going to give you that assumption, with time they would have probably talked about what really happen. So please then give me some assumptin back, and try not to be so black and white. The point i was making is that Lelouch could have told him the whole truth in that moment but he choose not to. Just as CC could have told Lelouch the truth of his mother and Charles plans but choose not to. This changes the whole dynamic of the story. See where i'm going? This is to say Lelouch had no time! Time was not his ally so he thought rationalyl and became the machiavellian prince.

I'm still not sure exactly what you're trying to say. Lelouch never outright told Kallen the whole truth. And I'm not sure what you're getting at with the whole "time" thing.

I apologize but i have to go i will respond to the rest inquiries at a later date.

Perfectly all right. Although I myself probably won't be able to respond until Friday evening because I'm going to be away from the computer for quite some time for Thanksgiving.

[Bonzo]

In my opinion, take/use the name of a dead people is a way to honor and remember them, but the feelings can be friendship, respect, honor, not a true love.

Like the way Lelouch and Kallen gived the names of dear people to their children.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

In my opinion, take/use the name of a dead people is a way to honor and remember them, but the feelings can be friendship, respect, honor, not a true love.

Like the way Lelouch and Kallen gived the names of dear people to their children.

Uh, I believe Witacume was referring to "taking his name" in the sense that a woman takes the name of her husband. You know, like how Mr. Smith marries Ms. Johnson, and so she becomes Mrs. Smith.

[Bonzo]

I thought it too, but is a way husband/wife, then out of the question.

[Lolipopo]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

He meant CC lol, overall she is just more important than Kallen because she's the one that gives Lelouch his geass, and is kinda always there to motivate him (at first for her own selfish needs) and keep him on track.

Kallen gets treated like a supporting character most of the series, and I personally didn't get the impression she was a main character until the end of R2.

Yeah, thanks God C.C. was there in episode 7, or Lelouch would have turn to a soon dead to be.
Oh wait...she wasn't there.

Overall I don't see C.C. being more important than Kallen. In S1 she was more present but in S2, her role was nearly a joke, and that was ridiculous. Such a wasted character withy a great potential condemned to stay on a corner eating pizza and holding her plush. Yeah great. So important.

When writers suck, they suck, that's it. And C.C. get a fair ammount of shit. Marianne is still on the throne of the joke of the year though.

Wita : That's good (well not really we can't talk as much as before XD but still it's always great to be overbooked irl...well...kinda :'P) but I have to say I missed you :'D
And I just noticed that Rolo should be Kallen's fans worst enemy now you said it.
We should join Shirley's fans in the "we hate Rolo" band. What a cockblocker :'(

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

And I just noticed that Rolo should be Kallen's fans worst enemy now you said it.
We should join Shirley's fans in the "we hate Rolo" band. What a cockblocker :'(

/

rolo is just to weird


What I want to see about kallen's past is how junior high school life was like with the other classmates.

[Bonzo]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

/

rolo is just to weird


What I want to see about kallen's past is how junior high school life was like with the other classmates.

Me and bladeofdarkness are working on it.

[Mazryonh]

Now that's something I'd like to see eventually. Like Suzaku says in Ch. 24, Kallen did change a lot in a single day, but I'd like to see how the years went by earlier that laid the foundations for that change in your interpretation. Maybe we'll even see Lelouch and Kallen out on a date.

There's a very nice piece of promo art where the two are out observing the fall colours. Maybe that's something you can do with them as high-school students, and then have them return to their "special place," only with a present-day blinded Lelouch lamenting about how he can't see the fall colours anymore.

[Bonzo]

Well, if you add all the events, in a single day (R2R story):

1)Kallen lost her mother and she feel herself responsabe of her death.
2)Ougi used her like a pawn.
3)C.C with a no kind way told her ALL the truth.
4)knowing the truth about lelouch past/present she finally understand what to do.
5)she seen C.C sacrified herself to change the zero requiem.
6)Kallen made everything and more to protect Lelouch but she's defeated
7)She beg Suzaku and Ougi for help Lelouch but they ignored her.
8)lelouch is heavily injured and blind, she feel herself responsable because she failed to protect him.

Two options at last, to drive insane or to change for Lelouch.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

Me and bladeofdarkness are working on it.

Since when did you guys starting working together on this project?

[Bonzo]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Since when did you guys starting working together on this project?

Erm...yesterday.

Just to explain better, I started time ago to draw a appendix with a story event about a meeting Kallen-Kaguya-Nunnally for the new life/identities for lelouch/Kallen.
The place, the house, documents, a lot of digitalized pictures with the two and a hypothetical new past, etc...

Bladeofdarkness sent me a story about Kallen child past and with a little modify I can add that event inside the same appendix.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

Two options at last, to drive insane or to change for Lelouch.

While it's true that some people find love in the most dire of situations, I remember reading accounts that many of these relationships fall apart quickly if the new couple doesn't "make up for lost time" (or more precisely, time they didn't spend in the first place) by sitting down and getting to know one another by dating or other conventional methods. Besides, while she may have C.C.'s memories of Lelouch's deeds, she still needs to talk to him the old-fashioned way to learn what he thinks of it, and to learn how to better be his support during his darkest (literally, in his case) days. Even real-life couples, married or otherwise, who don't take some time off to reconnect with each other at mutually convenient times and in the process rediscover why they've made the commitment to each other are more likely to have their relationship fail.

Besides, there's plenty of drama and comedy that could happen on their dates together. The Emperor of the World and a Black Knight couldn't date in the public eye--now that they're both nobodies again, they can! Lelouch might actually find the mundane problems on dates that so many romantic comedy movies make fun of actually enjoyable (such as the messy aftermath of sneezing in your soup on a date) as opposed to deciding the future of the entire world on a daily basis.

Oops, should have posted the link to the image of Kallen, Lelouch, and C.C. admiring the fall colours in my previous message. Here it is:

http://tinyurl.com/yk3ztz3

[Bonzo]

Well, at last, Kallen made her choice for different motivations, first of all, she lost everything and she need a goal for don't throw away her life, she feel herself betrayed from everyone, but not Lelouch, because at last he was sincere with her.
Her feelings for Lelouch are many, but the most principal are despair, compassion, sadness and a immense heart-break for a person in the same condition but with a more very heavy guilt feelings.

Second, she's the only one without grudge against lelouch after Nunnally and Sayoko and C.C suggestions about a new destiny with Lelouch made the rest.

Third, she's sure lelouch will change now and she will wait until that day, not important how much time will be necessary.

However, the restyled chp 24 art is ready, need the enhlish text, nobodyman fix the new parts, you must finish the rest, Kallen's evolution will continue there.

[Knightrunner]

Who thinks that during the series Kallen usually have to face internal conflict?

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Who thinks that during the series Kallen usually have to face internal conflict?

Who didn't?