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wingdarkness · 2006-05-31, 05:27

Just some things for starters before I get into my real Yzak vs. Shinn analysis later today...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNT1

And I'm just gonna add to the fact that Shinn was about equal or a bit better with the Extended's (he did catch Auel, but he just stood there...dunno why)... and in the other thread many have argued that Seed Druggies > Extendeds, and Yzak manhandled two of them. In an outdated Duel. Without SEED.
(Yzak > druggie > extended = shinn?)

Was he equal when he was kicking the extendeds a$$ess 3 vs. 1 in SWORD IMPULSE after the intial Gundamjack?? ("Oh it's not a pure 3 on 1"

So what was it 2.3 on 1, a 1.9 on 1?? Anyway you slice it Shinn was kicking their a$$ess in individual and sorty combat overall) So before you answer that first question why don't you tell us all here in animesuki's G-forum what's BLAST IMPULSE's specialty vs. ABYSS's specialty?? Let me help you out...ABYSS is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR WATER BATTLES WHERE IT IS SUPERIOR IN COMBAT WHILE IMPULSE IS NOT...But ofcourse you knew that..ofcourse you thought that thru...you couldn't possibly have been pawing at Obi-wan's leg like a little kitty because she made an argument that made you feel better about dissing Shinn...Chillax friend, I'll have mercy and stop my assault here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by a03

if shinn defeated kira with impulse against freedom, how can shinn lose to yzak if yzak lost so many times to kira?!

Ya see a03 what Obi doesn't understand is that to the victor goes the spoils...and she should know that considering her beloved Spurs got glomped over the head in the NBA playoffs...A win is a win is a win....Kira got beaten by a great planned strategy and in the win collumn vs. Kira, Shinn-1 Yzak-0...Does it mean anything more than that?? On the surface maybe not much, but it does let Yzak know that his opponent defeated a guy he couldn't come close to defeating and that is a psycological win for Shinn in any battle vs. Yzak...Yzak relies on his anger and metality to win, I wonder how his mindstate would be fighting someone who deafeated the all-powerful Kira inwhich he's seen first hand and knows he can't beat even at his optimum...So while your question may not be totally right, you have more than the right to ask it and not be owned by someone who didn't consider any of this...So you are exhonerated...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinji

2. I said "judging from his starting skills and estimating his growth from experince". As in, not using his skill level at the beginning to judge, but using his skill level at the beginning to estimate his growth to the end of the series.

But magically his growth dissapeared

...His calm demeanor that he had shown despite his anger during ep 28 when instead of going ape-$hit after he dodged God; he was calm and collected as he disposed of Auel and fought to protect the Minerva (Boy he sure could have used that normal progression during the Orb fight )His meticulous planning and analysing that he did with Rey just dissapeared...After SF and IJ nerfed him at Orb, why not come up with a strategy or plan like before?? (Boy he sure could have used this normal progression during the Final plus fight ) I can hear the Shinn haters now , "Cause he's an arrogant punk who thought he was better than them!!"

Yeah the same arrogant punk who is too embarrased to even accept a FAITH medal from Dullindal because he believes he's not worthy...The same arrogant punk who believed in Athrun until Athrun decided to turn in a defmute incapable of speech....You people fail (The hate Shinn at all costs people) and later today when I get back from work I'm gonna intesify points by Shinji that were already pretty decent if not good...

Mr_Paper · 2006-05-31, 06:05

I HIGHLY recommend you don't. -.-

wingdarkness · 2006-05-31, 06:11

^ I only meant analytical goodness

..Nothing more^^...

C'mon Mr. Paper it's been ages since you've unleashed your wisdom...frame the debate and gimma your take...Unless new avy equals new bada$$ personality...

epyon96 · 2006-05-31, 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I get the distinct feeling that some of you think Yzak is capable of easily or handily defeating Shinn in a one on one battle...Obviously your ace in the hole will be Shinn's OMGWTFBBQ face when Athrun, Yzak, and Dearka easily handle the extendeds in space during episode 6...The Shinn of episode 6 ain't the Shinn of later on in the series and that's excusing his ultimate nerfage that made him forget he had more than one move during his disgraceful finale (So if you use this as an argument prepare yourself)...

So please convince me that temper-based Yzak could beat temper-based Shinn in a one on one battle when temper-based Yzak has no SEED...Your choices are:

DESTINY vs. Yzak's Custom Zaku

IMPULSE (any form) vs. Yzak's Custom Zaku

DESTNY vs. DUEL

IMPULSE vs. DUEL

Lets talk more about piloting abilities, MS strategy, and similiar opponent history than specs...

DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A TOTAL SPECS DEBATE!!!!!!!

Now who's first to the chopping block??

Curious why you insist that the argument of "he has only one move" can be discounted so easily? The main problem with the character Shin is that in almost the entire series, he has only displayed his ability to finish mobile suits one-on-one with that one "slashing" move with a big sword.
- Against the Destroys
- Against Freedom
- Against Athrun in the GOUF

The only time where he displayed his creativity was when he piloted Impulse and defeated Abyss and that first mobile armor.

But it seemed he lost all creativity after he got Destiny, which is unfortunate because it makes judging his talents difficult. We do know that Shin has mad reflexes and dodging ability with his Seed mode so perhaps that should give him the edge he needs over Yzak dispate the latter's battle experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obi-Wan

Yzak fought in god knows how many space battles throughout the war. Since Yzak isn't on the Kira Team or the Shinn Team, they hardly ever show him fight. But there were numerous behind the scenes battles in space while Shinn and Kira are fighting on Earth. Durandal even says this in the tea party episode. So while we do not see Yzak fight, he is up there doing it. Yes, he is fighting against Windams and Daggers, but then again so is Shinn most of the time. Of course Shinn fights against Astrays and Murasames too, but is there really a difference. Point is, Shinn is using a Gundam. Yzak is using a custom grunt suit, which underneath it all is still a grunt suit. Reason would say that Yzak would have to be an elite pilot to be able to survive through so many battles in space while using inferior equipment.

Also worth noting, Yzak does all of this without using SEED factor. Shinn needed SEED factor to do anything in GSD. So, put Yzak and Shinn in equal machines, push Yzak to the edge and make him discover his SEED factor and Shinn is toast. Yzak could probably handle him one on one without using SEED, but with it would just be icing on the cake.

Consider the possibility that Yzak doesn't have a seed factor. Afterall, some of the current theories suggest that the Seed factor may be a genetic sign of superior evolution.

epyon96 · 2006-05-31, 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Just some things for starters before I get into my real Yzak vs. Shinn analysis later today...

Was he equal when he was kicking the extendeds a$$ess 3 vs. 1 in SWORD IMPULSE after the intial Gundamjack?? ("Oh it's not a pure 3 on 1"

So what was it 2.3 on 1, a 1.9 on 1?? Anyway you slice it Shinn was kicking their a$$ess in individual and sorty combat overall) So before you answer that first question why don't you tell us all here in animesuki's G-forum what's BLAST IMPULSE's specialty vs. ABYSS's specialty?? Let me help you out...ABYSS is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR WATER BATTLES WHERE IT IS SUPERIOR IN COMBAT WHILE IMPULSE IS NOT...But ofcourse you knew that..ofcourse you thought that thru...you couldn't possibly have been pawing at Obi-wan's leg like a little kitty because she made an argument that made you feel better about dissing Shinn...Chillax friend, I'll have mercy and stop my assault here...

You realize all your arguments are "straw man" arguments right? You can't take a scenario and take out all the elements you don't like to make your argument look stronger than it is.

Shin vs the three extended in the beginning. If I recall, he had Athrun's help in the beginning along with Luna and Rey later on in every single fight. Let's not forget, in none of those fights he was winning. But of course, that doesn't matter because to you, that's still a 3v1 battle and survival is the only requirement. The only problem is had it not been for those other characters who assisted him, I highly doubt he would've survived. Even that one-on-one battle with Neo's Exxass, he nearly died had it not been Rey's help.

Quote:

Ya see a03 what Obi doesn't understand is that to the victor goes the spoils...and she should know that considering her beloved Spurs got glomped over the head in the NBA playoffs...A win is a win is a win....Kira got beaten by a great planned strategy and in the win collumn vs. Kira, Shinn-1 Yzak-0...Does it mean anything more than that?? On the surface maybe not much, but it does let Yzak know that his opponent defeated a guy he couldn't come close to defeating and that is a psycological win for Shinn in any battle vs. Yzak...Yzak relies on his anger and metality to win, I wonder how his mindstate would be fighting someone who deafeated the all-powerful Kira inwhich he's seen first hand and knows he can't beat even at his optimum...So while your question may not be totally right, you have more than the right to ask it and not be owned by someone who didn't consider any of this...So you are exhonerated...

This glorification argument you make is not the right way to argue in this type of debate considering the fact that the same thing can be applied to Yzak, the person you are trying to prove that Shin's better to. Yzak throughout the two series was "underglorified' - if that's a term. He received absolutely no special effects treatment whatsoever. Then it becomes an argument over degree of plot device used for each character which becomes a slur of useless opinions. It's appropriate in this type of versus debate to assume that what happened in the anime is fact and none of it can be attributed to plot devices; otherwise, to either sides of this debate, anything you don't like is all of a sudden a plot device.

But of course, you are also forgeting the fact that from the very beginning of GSD, Fukaku suggested that Impulse is superior to the previous generation super powers like Freedom with the respective Impulse packs. Whereas, for Yzak, he always gets stuck with the absolute worst in mobile suits when it comes to ace pilots. First he gets the Duel, which is the alpha-suit of the bunch of GAT weapons. Than he gets the Zaku Warrior, while Shin and Athrun get GUNDAMs. But again, I'm beginning to go into plot device territory so I'll stop. But do consider some of the reasons why Shin defeated Freedom whereas Yzak couldn't in his mobile suits. The others probably already listed the major ones why Freedom was defeated by Impulse.

Quote:

But magically his growth dissapeared

...His calm demeanor that he had shown despite his anger during ep 28 when instead of going ape-$hit after he dodged God; he was calm and collected as he disposed of Auel and fought to protect the Minerva (Boy he sure could have used that normal progression during the Orb fight )His meticulous planning and analysing that he did with Rey just dissapeared...After SF and IJ nerfed him at Orb, why not come up with a strategy or plan like before?? (Boy he sure could have used this normal progression during the Final plus fight ) I can hear the Shinn haters now , "Cause he's an arrogant punk who thought he was better than them!!"

Yeah the same arrogant punk who is too embarrased to even accept a FAITH medal from Dullindal because he believes he's not worthy...The same arrogant punk who believed in Athrun until Athrun decided to turn in a defmute incapable of speech....You people fail (The hate Shinn at all costs people) and later today when I get back from work I'm gonna intesify points by Shinji that were already pretty decent if not good...

Defeating Auel was quite a feat but the only problem with that is that it doesn't prove that Yzak couldn't have done the same if not with more ease considering how he handled the druggies in Seed with similar strategies of throwing smokescreen in front of enemy than hitting them when they can't see.

The other arguments you made here all fall under the "plot device" catagory. You realize the other side (those arguing for Yzak) can say the same stuff about him. I'm not suggesting that Yzak is better than Shin because I think with Seed mode Shin can best him. Unfortunately, I cannot say that with certainty. However, I do not see any of your straw man arguments as a way to prove either way.

Aidan · 2006-05-31, 08:42

I'm not able to determine Yzaks skill in GSD because we don't see him around much. But on equal terms (suits and circumstance) Yzak would win IMO. He took down Forbidden and Raider after all, so he's far from unskilled.

ccardoso · 2006-05-31, 08:54

During the fight between the two Kira comes and kills both!

Mr_Paper · 2006-05-31, 10:23

My vote actually goes to Shinn in this one...

While Yzak is shown to have far more actual combat experience, I see his approach to combat as his major weakness in this confrontation. Throughout both series Yzak is shown to be a straight forward fighter, his basic tactic is to charge in and confront the enemy head-on - a practice he does not deviate from. First against the Druggies in SEED, a fight which I'd say he survived more by luck than skill, it was shown that he does not fair well against mobile suit pilots who employ unorthodox or unconventional approaches to combat. The erratic and highly unconventional attacks employed by the Druggies threw him off and nearly cost him dearly.

More than this, it has been shown, that as a pilot he operates far better in a team rather than as a solitary unit. Against skilled pilots, Kira and/or the Druggies, he often stalemates or gets overwhelmed - once again, I'd attribute this to his basic strategy of fighting head-on. While he can pressure his opponents, if the first strike fails to connect or defeat the foe, he is at a large disadvantage. With team support he seems to excel as their are people that can immediately capitalize of the situations he creates. While this tends to work, the question seems to be of the one-on-one variety so there will be no backup to support him.

Lastly, he tends to lose his temper rather quickly in the heat of combat, especially if the flow of the battle is not on his side. While it is true that this is a trait both he and Shinn share, in Yzak's case it appears to adversely affect his performance where the opposite is true for Shinn.

Now, as to why I chose Shinn...

Shinn's greatest advantage in this confrontation is that, as a pilot, he employs some rather unique and improvised battle strategies (see GSD 34 for reference material) and isn't affraid to sacrifice a weapon or two to setup for the finishing blow. This is, as I see it, what gives him an edge over Yzak; while both are straight forward fighters, Shinn's use of unusual tactics and attack patterns would quickly overwhelm Yzak. I'd imagine that if it had been Yzak piloting Freedom in GSD 34, he's have been rather angry at his continually missing Shinn and would have quickly lost his focus in his anger.

So, yeah, I voted Shinn.

Demongod86 · 2006-05-31, 10:43

I say Yzak since Yzak is able to take down much better equipped foes, and often finds the tactics to do so time and again. Against druggies in SEED, AND in Destiny. As for Shinn, yes, in Impulse, he had tricks against Freedom, but a lot of that was attributed to the fact that he knew Freedom's strategy BEFOREHAND, AND Kira was half-assing it. A lot of Shinn's wins came from the fact that he had the Minerva just resupplying him with endless spare parts. Ep 34, Kira could have finished Shinn off instead of going for arm/head. Ep 42 Kira could have killed Shinn (even he admitted it) but didn't. Ep 43 Athrun also trounced Shinn and in ep 50, Athrun gives Shinn the asskicking he had coming the entire series (at least post ep 34 to put him back into his place). So as for Shinn being all that, no, he really wasn't "all that". I mean holy crap, he beats Athrun in a regular gouf even after losing his gun and with legend there as well. I'd think Yzak would be able to give Shinn a solid fight and even win against him in Destiny with his super gouf. As for giving Yzak Strike Freedom...well, Shinn would just die horribly then since Yzak isn't afraid to simply go for the kill.

Mr_Paper · 2006-05-31, 10:51

So, your point is that because Kira and Athrun beat Shinn (in some of the most biasedly animated battles of the series), both of which are far superior to Yzak (one of which actually beat Yzak like an infant in every engagement), Yzak would beat Shinn (who managed to stand on near even ground with them prior to nerfing)?

epyon96 · 2006-05-31, 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Paper

My vote actually goes to Shinn in this one...

While Yzak is shown to have far more actual combat experience, I see his approach to combat as his major weakness in this confrontation. Throughout both series Yzak is shown to be a straight forward fighter, his basic tactic is to charge in and confront the enemy head-on - a practice he does not deviate from. First against the Druggies in SEED, a fight which I'd say he survived more by luck than skill, it was shown that he does not fair well against mobile suit pilots who employ unorthodox or unconventional approaches to combat. The erratic and highly unconventional attacks employed by the Druggies threw him off and nearly cost him dearly.

More than this, it has been shown, that as a pilot he operates far better in a team rather than as a solitary unit. Against skilled pilots, Kira and/or the Druggies, he often stalemates or gets overwhelmed - once again, I'd attribute this to his basic strategy of fighting head-on. While he can pressure his opponents, if the first strike fails to connect or defeat the foe, he is at a large disadvantage. With team support he seems to excel as their are people that can immediately capitalize of the situations he creates. While this tends to work, the question seems to be of the one-on-one variety so there will be no backup to support him.

Lastly, he tends to lose his temper rather quickly in the heat of combat, especially if the flow of the battle is not on his side. While it is true that this is a trait both he and Shinn share, in Yzak's case it appears to adversely affect his performance where the opposite is true for Shinn.

Now, as to why I chose Shinn...

Shinn's greatest advantage in this confrontation is that, as a pilot, he employs some rather unique and improvised battle strategies (see GSD 34 for reference material) and isn't affraid to sacrifice a weapon or two to setup for the finishing blow. This is, as I see it, what gives him an edge over Yzak; while both are straight forward fighters, Shinn's use of unusual tactics and attack patterns would quickly overwhelm Yzak. I'd imagine that if it had been Yzak piloting Freedom in GSD 34, he's have been rather angry at his continually missing Shinn and would have quickly lost his focus in his anger.

So, yeah, I voted Shinn.

Good reasoning.

Consider this though: I completely agree that in the later episodes with Impulse, Shin showed some good moves against both the Abyss and Freedom. However, that creativity and as you call it, "unique and improvised battle strategies" is all lost when he moves onto Destiny. Now, some will say plot device but as probably evident in my posts, I despise that term when used as a reasonable explanation.

I see it differently. Shin, when in a lesser mobile suit, employs good strategies while in a much more superior mobile suit like the Destiny, Shin loses his strategies in favor of pure brute force and what he considers efficiency. This rationality is aligned with the fact that Shin by nature is an arrogant hothead who often loses his rationality for moments of personal glory. Perhaps in Destiny, he saw his palm attack and sword attack work marvelously on the Destroys and assumes it will serve well for all his future one on one encounters. I think that flaw may be fatal.

In other words, if Shin is given what fans deem as a superior suit while Yzak is given a similar suit, it may work towards Shin's downfall due to his tendency to underestimate his opponents when in a superior suit.

Of course, that is a working theory because Shin's seed mode (enhanced reaction time and manuverbility) against Yzak's lack of seed mode may be enough to turn the edge.

rtwesen · 2006-05-31, 10:57

I completely gave up on destiny's last few episodes, but i've heard about fukuda's post-series interview, saying shinn was the best pilot in CE. Is there a source to this? (numerous websites mentioned it, so it's not just a random claim :/)

Anh_Minh · 2006-05-31, 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Shinn stood his ground for a while against the Extendeds by himself at the beginning of the series. When they started getting tricky on him, he started losing, which is perfectly normal in a 3-on-1 fight.

Cut the Extendeds some slack. They'd just stolen the suits. Though the comparison isn't entirely fair, when the Zaft Four stole their gundams, they could barely move them.

Mr_Paper · 2006-05-31, 11:23

@epyon96 - Geh, nearly edited your post there... The edit button and reply buttons are just too close todether. ;_;

Anyway, when comparing pilot skills I always assume equal or identical MS and that both pilots are at their peaks much in that same fashion that when comparing MS attributes, I assume identical pilots. I probably should have started my explaination by making that explicitedly clear, my mistake. So in this case, as I view Shinn at his best prior to what I refer to as his 'nerfing'*, I'd be comparing both Shinn and Yzak in the Impulse Gundam.

Even with the added advantages of the Impulse Gundam on his side, I do not see Yzak gaining any significant advantage. His basic approach to combat would remain the same; charge in and attack the enemy head on. While Shinn's approach to combat isn't much different, I see his tactics giving him an advantage over Yzak.

*While I know you dislike having it refered to as a 'plot device' the noticable drop in Shinn's piloting abilities and characterization that follows his acceptence of Destiny Gundam is something I cannot overlook nor try to explain away with arguments that I do not see working with his previously shown characterization.

Shinji103 · 2006-05-31, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Cut the Extendeds some slack. They'd just stolen the suits. Though the comparison isn't entirely fair, when the Zaft Four stole their gundams, they could barely move them.

Just some commentary:

Murrue said the OS back in GSEED was incomplete. Admittedly she didn't specifically say the others were as well, but if the Strike's OS was incomplete then it's reasonable to assume the others were incomplete as well. It was the OS Kira created that allowed the Srike to operate so well. Once Kira got that OS going, he kicked serious @$$, and he wasn't even trained as a mobile suit pilot, and especially not with the Strike's controls.

And besides, just seeing the the Gundams stand up and fly away doesn't tell us how well Athrun, Yzak, Dearkka, and Nicole could move them.

epyon96 · 2006-05-31, 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Paper

@epyon96 - Geh, nearly edited your post there... The edit button and reply buttons are just too close todether. ;_;

Anyway, when comparing pilot skills I always assume equal or identical MS and that both pilots are at their peaks much in that same fashion that when comparing MS attributes, I assume identical pilots. I probably should have started my explaination by making that explicitedly clear, my mistake. So in this case, as I view Shinn at his best prior to what I refer to as his 'nerfing'*, I'd be comparing both Shinn and Yzak in the Impulse Gundam.

Even with the added advantages of the Impulse Gundam on his side, I do not see Yzak gaining any significant advantage. His basic approach to combat would remain the same; charge in and attack the enemy head on. While Shinn's approach to combat isn't much different, I see his tactics giving him an advantage over Yzak.

*While I know you dislike having it refered to as a 'plot device' the noticable drop in Shinn's piloting abilities and characterization that follows his acceptence of Destiny Gundam is something I cannot overlook nor try to explain away with arguments that I do not see working with his previously shown characterization.

hehe. You give new meaning to "always read the subscript" :P

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree on that point. Even though I maintain my perspective that Shin is arrogant and with a strong mobile suit, he gets less creative, I personally am biased towards Shin in this versus debate.

SNT1 · 2006-05-31, 14:08

Quote:

Was he equal when he was kicking the extendeds a$$ess 3 vs. 1 in SWORD IMPULSE after the intial Gundamjack?? ("Oh it's not a pure 3 on 1" So what was it 2.3 on 1, a 1.9 on 1?? Anyway you slice it Shinn was kicking their a$$ess in individual and sorty combat overall) So before you answer that first question why don't you tell us all here in animesuki's G-forum what's BLAST IMPULSE's specialty vs. ABYSS's specialty?? Let me help you out...ABYSS is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR WATER BATTLES WHERE IT IS SUPERIOR IN COMBAT WHILE IMPULSE IS NOT...But ofcourse you knew that..ofcourse you thought that thru...you couldn't possibly have been pawing at Obi-wan's leg like a little kitty because she made an argument that made you feel better about dissing Shinn...Chillax friend, I'll have mercy and stop my assault here...

oh my, you're such a flame bait. Mercy? assault? what angry words!

1. He wasn't 'kicking the Extended's asses.' If he was, the 3 stolen Gundams would have never gotten away in the first place. In a sense, Shinn failed his mission. Although it made for good action scenes, he did nothing more than to stall the three.

2. If Abyss did its thing and went to sinking ships, he would have been far more productive. Last I check, Impulse wasn't fighting underwater.... and anyways, Abyss can be shot underwater anyway; it was just a crappy MS.

Quote:

Shinn's greatest advantage in this confrontation is that, as a pilot, he employs some rather unique and improvised battle strategies (see GSD 34 for reference material) and isn't affraid to sacrifice a weapon or two to setup for the finishing blow. This is, as I see it, what gives him an edge over Yzak; while both are straight forward fighters, Shinn's use of unusual tactics and attack patterns would quickly overwhelm Yzak. I'd imagine that if it had been Yzak piloting Freedom in GSD 34, he's have been rather angry at his continually missing Shinn and would have quickly lost his focus in his anger.

thats the problem, Yzak is not Kira. If he was piloting the Freedom, he would have killed Shinn with a cockpit saber slash (remember when Kira dismemebred Impulse' head and arm? or how about the core fighter fiasco?)

Thats why Shinn knew what to expect of Kira, as they knew where Kira aims, and Shinn took advantage. Yzak, as far as we know, don't have things such as disabling policies or whatnot...

Demongod86 · 2006-05-31, 14:14

@ Paper the last time Kira schooled Yzak was in Freedom vs. Duel...but then again Yzak trashed two druggies like nobody's business in Duel when Kira had trouble with them in FREEDOM. And after the acceptance of the Destiny Gundam, Shinn's piloting skills didn't exactly take a turn for the worse...what took him AND Kira an entire ep 32 to do, Shinn did 3-5x over within the course of several minutes in the Destiny gundam. Not to mention that Kira in Freedom got several new upgrades that allowed him to soundly take Destiny hit for hit, and Athrun's infinite Justice is probably the best melee suit in the CE universe. Though yes, Shinn's characterization did go down the drain after Destiny.

epyon96 · 2006-05-31, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demongod86

@ Paper the last time Kira schooled Yzak was in Freedom vs. Duel...but then again Yzak trashed two druggies like nobody's business in Duel when Kira had trouble with them in FREEDOM. And after the acceptance of the Destiny Gundam, Shinn's piloting skills didn't exactly take a turn for the worse...what took him AND Kira an entire ep 32 to do, Shinn did 3-5x over within the course of several minutes in the Destiny gundam. Not to mention that Kira in Freedom got several new upgrades that allowed him to soundly take Destiny hit for hit, and Athrun's infinite Justice is probably the best melee suit in the CE universe. Though yes, Shinn's characterization did go down the drain after Destiny.

Wasn't the higher efficiency displayed by Shin later on versus the Destroys because he discovered his anti-ship sword was super effective? Freedom didn't have access to that weapon unless he wants to disarm Destiny first and steal the sword..lolz

Astaroth · 2006-05-31, 14:41

For me there a diference in his fighting styles:
Yzak fights better when he's not going totaly nuts and shin is totaly the oposite, it's when he goes berserk that he becomes an Ace.
The sad true is that shin is probably better pilot than Yzak (I'm an Yzak big fan)because he's more or less in kira and Athrun level and Yzak is not.

View Poll Results: Who wins?
Yzak	58	56.31%
Shinn	32	31.07%
$hitty 3rd option because I hate both these guys...	13	12.62%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

2006-05-31, 06:11	Link #23
wingdarkness Retweet Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: ニュー・オーリンズ、LA	^ I only meant analytical goodness ..Nothing more^^... C'mon Mr. Paper it's been ages since you've unleashed your wisdom...frame the debate and gimma your take...Unless new avy equals new bada$$ personality... __________________ Fly since ↔...

2006-05-31, 10:43	Link #29
Demongod86 Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW Join Date: Dec 2005	I say Yzak since Yzak is able to take down much better equipped foes, and often finds the tactics to do so time and again. Against druggies in SEED, AND in Destiny. As for Shinn, yes, in Impulse, he had tricks against Freedom, but a lot of that was attributed to the fact that he knew Freedom's strategy BEFOREHAND, AND Kira was half-assing it. A lot of Shinn's wins came from the fact that he had the Minerva just resupplying him with endless spare parts. Ep 34, Kira could have finished Shinn off instead of going for arm/head. Ep 42 Kira could have killed Shinn (even he admitted it) but didn't. Ep 43 Athrun also trounced Shinn and in ep 50, Athrun gives Shinn the asskicking he had coming the entire series (at least post ep 34 to put him back into his place). So as for Shinn being all that, no, he really wasn't "all that". I mean holy crap, he beats Athrun in a regular gouf even after losing his gun and with legend there as well. I'd think Yzak would be able to give Shinn a solid fight and even win against him in Destiny with his super gouf. As for giving Yzak Strike Freedom...well, Shinn would just die horribly then since Yzak isn't afraid to simply go for the kill. __________________ Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.

2006-05-31, 14:14	Link #38
Demongod86 Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW Join Date: Dec 2005	@ Paper the last time Kira schooled Yzak was in Freedom vs. Duel...but then again Yzak trashed two druggies like nobody's business in Duel when Kira had trouble with them in FREEDOM. And after the acceptance of the Destiny Gundam, Shinn's piloting skills didn't exactly take a turn for the worse...what took him AND Kira an entire ep 32 to do, Shinn did 3-5x over within the course of several minutes in the Destiny gundam. Not to mention that Kira in Freedom got several new upgrades that allowed him to soundly take Destiny hit for hit, and Athrun's infinite Justice is probably the best melee suit in the CE universe. Though yes, Shinn's characterization did go down the drain after Destiny. __________________ Signature stolen by a horde of carnivorous bunnies. It is an unscientifically proven fact that they are attracted to signatures which break the signature rules.

2006-05-31, 06:05	Link #22
Mr_Paper Hmm... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Looking for his book...	I HIGHLY recommend you don't. -.-

2006-05-31, 08:42	Link #26
Aidan Am I bad? Yes... Very X( Join Date: Jan 2006 Age: 41	I'm not able to determine Yzaks skill in GSD because we don't see him around much. But on equal terms (suits and circumstance) Yzak would win IMO. He took down Forbidden and Raider after all, so he's far from unskilled.

2006-05-31, 08:54	Link #27
ccardoso Banned Join Date: Feb 2004	During the fight between the two Kira comes and kills both!

2006-05-31, 10:23	Link #28
Mr_Paper Hmm... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Looking for his book...	My vote actually goes to Shinn in this one... While Yzak is shown to have far more actual combat experience, I see his approach to combat as his major weakness in this confrontation. Throughout both series Yzak is shown to be a straight forward fighter, his basic tactic is to charge in and confront the enemy head-on - a practice he does not deviate from. First against the Druggies in SEED, a fight which I'd say he survived more by luck than skill, it was shown that he does not fair well against mobile suit pilots who employ unorthodox or unconventional approaches to combat. The erratic and highly unconventional attacks employed by the Druggies threw him off and nearly cost him dearly. More than this, it has been shown, that as a pilot he operates far better in a team rather than as a solitary unit. Against skilled pilots, Kira and/or the Druggies, he often stalemates or gets overwhelmed - once again, I'd attribute this to his basic strategy of fighting head-on. While he can pressure his opponents, if the first strike fails to connect or defeat the foe, he is at a large disadvantage. With team support he seems to excel as their are people that can immediately capitalize of the situations he creates. While this tends to work, the question seems to be of the one-on-one variety so there will be no backup to support him. Lastly, he tends to lose his temper rather quickly in the heat of combat, especially if the flow of the battle is not on his side. While it is true that this is a trait both he and Shinn share, in Yzak's case it appears to adversely affect his performance where the opposite is true for Shinn. Now, as to why I chose Shinn... Shinn's greatest advantage in this confrontation is that, as a pilot, he employs some rather unique and improvised battle strategies (see GSD 34 for reference material) and isn't affraid to sacrifice a weapon or two to setup for the finishing blow. This is, as I see it, what gives him an edge over Yzak; while both are straight forward fighters, Shinn's use of unusual tactics and attack patterns would quickly overwhelm Yzak. I'd imagine that if it had been Yzak piloting Freedom in GSD 34, he's have been rather angry at his continually missing Shinn and would have quickly lost his focus in his anger. So, yeah, I voted Shinn.

2006-05-31, 10:51	Link #30
Mr_Paper Hmm... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Looking for his book...	So, your point is that because Kira and Athrun beat Shinn (in some of the most biasedly animated battles of the series), both of which are far superior to Yzak (one of which actually beat Yzak like an infant in every engagement), Yzak would beat Shinn (who managed to stand on near even ground with them prior to nerfing)?

2006-05-31, 10:57	Link #32
rtwesen Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Australia	I completely gave up on destiny's last few episodes, but i've heard about fukuda's post-series interview, saying shinn was the best pilot in CE. Is there a source to this? (numerous websites mentioned it, so it's not just a random claim :/)

2006-05-31, 11:23	Link #34
Mr_Paper Hmm... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Looking for his book...	@epyon96 - Geh, nearly edited your post there... The edit button and reply buttons are just too close todether. ;_; Anyway, when comparing pilot skills I always assume equal or identical MS and that both pilots are at their peaks much in that same fashion that when comparing MS attributes, I assume identical pilots. I probably should have started my explaination by making that explicitedly clear, my mistake. So in this case, as I view Shinn at his best prior to what I refer to as his 'nerfing', I'd be comparing both Shinn and Yzak in the Impulse Gundam. Even with the added advantages of the Impulse Gundam on his side, I do not see Yzak gaining any significant advantage. His basic approach to combat would remain the same; charge in and attack the enemy head on. While Shinn's approach to combat isn't much different, I see his tactics giving him an advantage over Yzak. While I know you dislike having it refered to as a 'plot device' the noticable drop in Shinn's piloting abilities and characterization that follows his acceptence of Destiny Gundam is something I cannot overlook nor try to explain away with arguments that I do not see working with his previously shown characterization.

2006-05-31, 14:41	Link #40
Astaroth Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	For me there a diference in his fighting styles: Yzak fights better when he's not going totaly nuts and shin is totaly the oposite, it's when he goes berserk that he becomes an Ace. The sad true is that shin is probably better pilot than Yzak (I'm an Yzak big fan)because he's more or less in kira and Athrun level and Yzak is not.