2008-03-24, 11:36 | Link #821 | |
Silent Warrior
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Netherlands
Age: 38
|
Quote:
|
|
2008-03-24, 13:18 | Link #822 |
Wu Di Jin Gang Tui
Join Date: Jan 2007
|
I am not judging anyone I was just pointing out that the author may have him acting slowly based on different cultural values, in my experience it was extremely rude to interfere in someone elses affairs in east Asia. The idea that you have some responsibility to act is not a common thought. for example:
you don't see much violent crime in China but what I did see a lot of was pickpocketing and purse snatching, I saw one woman have her purse ripped right out of her hands and the man who took it ran away through a crowd of maybe hundreds on a busy street, no one did anything, (yes that includes me) I thought maybe i should do something but the guy was on the other side of the street and surrounded by people I thought someone would do something, but no one did. it isn't just a matter of respecting personal privacy because they don't anymore than any other culture they will snoop through your bathroom cabinet and sometimes ask questions that most westerners would never dream of asking (how old, weight, etc) but it is a cultural norm not to actual involve themselves in someone elses troubles lest it become thier trouble. My whole point is the way most people seem to see what's going on in this manga is from a personal point of view, how would i feel if I were rin or aoki or whoever. Instead I am suggesting they take an outside view and maybe it will be easier to understand why character behave the way they do. example: if you were born and raised a cannibal you would think eating humans is perfectly normal, but for most of us that is almost worse than the actual killing (think jeffry dahmer) culture plays an immense role in the way things are seen as normal.
__________________
|
2008-03-24, 13:41 | Link #823 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Risking a knife to the gut to preserve a stranger's pocket change isn't the same as being the moral support of a kid you actually know personally. If the father could bring in his lawyer, I don't see why Rin couldn't have her teacher.
|
2008-03-24, 14:02 | Link #824 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
|
Quote:
However, I strongly disagree with Mykas opinion about Aoki's presence. First of all, he didn't just show up at Rin's doorstep and force his way into a situation that wasn't any of his business. Rin specifically asked for him to be there and I suspect she did so because she wanted someone to represent her interests, something that Kuro herself acknowledged. As a child, she isn't taken seriously. I mean, Reiji's arguing in favor of himself and what he believes are Rin's best interests and Roku's doing the same. Who's going to defend Rin's own interests? No one will listen to her because she's a child. Aoki was her "lawyer" at that meeting and there to stand up for her rights. Yes, he nearly dropped the ball when he considered forcing his own belief of what was in her own best interest on her, but he came through in the end and let her make her own decision. Whether her choice was right or wrong is irrelevant: it was hers to make and she made it. I think that if Aoki had brought up the matter of Reiji's unwanted attention and gotten him jailed or at least have custody rights given to her father, that Rin would never have forgiven him for it and completely shut him out of her life. As it stands, however, Aoki's gained more credibility in her eyes by letting her make her own choice, and I think that he's in a better position to help her out when the time comes. The other problem here is what Billborden mentioned a few pages back: Rin's at least partly in denial about the hickeys and what they imply about Reiji's feelings towards her. She herself is not completely able to let go of the image of her, Reiji, and Aki as a family all those years ago and is doing her best to maintain it even if she knows her mother is dead and not coming back. On the one hand, she purposely drove away that coworker of Reiji's who was interested in him. On the other, she did give Usa permission to follow her heart. She's acknowledged both problems on some level but has yet to figure out what to do about them. Until she comes to terms with both those things, I don't think she'll be ready to leave Reiji behind of her own accord. The Lunar Archivist |
|
2008-03-24, 18:12 | Link #825 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
Nicely written post. Its really too bad this excellent little series wasn't given room to breathe in my country, because it actually supports the idea of "think of the children" in the *big picture* way instead of the "witchburning" no-discussion-allowed way. And yeah, some of the problems and behaviors we'r seeing here are because of cultural attitudes (recently shifting a bit) in Japan about children.
Some days I think this should be required reading for family court judges, social workers, and teachers.
__________________
|
2008-03-24, 20:38 | Link #826 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 38
|
^ @Lunar Archivist
Truer words where never spoken... I really have to say both Reiji and Roku were in the wrong. Neither one of them had been looking out for Rin's interest to start with so I believe what Aoki did was right Rin deserved to let her voice be heard.
__________________
|
2008-03-25, 00:05 | Link #827 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
|
Thanks for the compliments, DarkWing and Vexx. To be honest, the entire subject is something of a bone of contention for me. Maybe it's partly my own Lolita Complex talking here, but there're quite a few things about current child psychology that bother me, and this series raises a lot of those questions without giving any easy answers. While I don't condone romantic or sexual relationships between children and adults, I've often wondered how many of the children who regret those liasons as adults do so because they genuinely feel betrayed, how many only end up feeling that way because it's been hammered into their skulls incessantly by the adults around them that they were taken advantage of, and how many are simply bowing to popular opinion and playing the role of victim that society expects them to.
I'm reminded of the whole Mary Kay Letourneau mess that took place around ten years ago and being incredibly annoyed by how her interview on Dateline seemed to be edited together to make her look like some kind of insane sexual deviant rather than someone who made a series of really stupid decisions. Not exactly objective reporting, there, NBC. Last I heard, the two of them were married and living happily together, and I remember thinking, "Good for them on proving everyone wrong." even if I never supported their relationship in the first place. I'm kinda hoping Rin and Aoki get together in the end as well, hopefully minus all the illegal sex or jail time. The Lunar Archivist |
2008-03-25, 00:46 | Link #828 | |||
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
|||
2008-03-25, 01:30 | Link #829 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Hm. Thinking of the children is nice, listening to their opinion is certainly important, but I also understand why one wouldn't want to let them make all the decisions. Even and especially when those decisions are going to shape their lives.
|
2008-03-25, 02:31 | Link #830 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
|
Quote:
The Lunar Archivist |
|
2008-03-25, 05:20 | Link #832 |
Wu Di Jin Gang Tui
Join Date: Jan 2007
|
[QUOTE]Risking a knife to the gut to preserve a stranger's pocket change isn't the same as being the moral support of a kid you actually know personally. If the father could bring in his lawyer, I don't see why Rin couldn't have her teacher.QUOTE]
Actually my point was there was no violent crime no risk of a knife, that would have been out of character. Ignoring someone elses trouble was in character. As for why she couldn't bring her teacher? as I pointed out, to them children's opions have no value at all. There may be some in Asian culture that would value the opinion of a child but they are the exception not the rule. Parents often arrange marriages, decide carreer paths and basicly rule childrens lives even today, if you look at many manga you can see the situation of adults still living with thier parents especially females long past the time we would consider normal in the west. For Aoki to go to the meeting was extremely intrusive, for him to have actually had the gall to ask what Rin thought was over the top by thier cultural standards. (Please keep in mind this is based on what I have seen and experienced, I didn't grow up with it and I am not a sociologist who is an expert these are just observations) I think instead of personalizing the story and criticizing the characters we disagree with we should step back and take a look at why the characters did what they did. I remember my first shock in manga was reading a story where a pair of parents had both left behind thier teenage daughter to fend for herself because they had gotten remaried and she was inconvenient to them, and yet both parents still wielded tremendous power over the girl and her behavior. It seemed that the only value children had for the parents was what good they could produce for them and in that way the children were much the same as a chair or a tv set to be used when convenient and to sit silently doing nothing when not needed. Btw please don't think these are my personal views just my observations and understanding of the way things work in east Asia.
__________________
|
2008-03-25, 09:06 | Link #835 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: United States
|
I just read through the English translated version of KNJ, and I found it very interesting. I couldn't agree more with what Lunar Archavist said about the dispute between Reiji and Roku over Rin. They claim they're doing what's "in the child's best interest", but in the end it was their own interests they were protecting. Whether this was intentional or not, it was extremely selfish on both their parts. But what was even more insulting toward Rin was how they talked about her like she wasn't even there. The lawyer was the most amusing of all. She could give two shits about Rin's needs or interests, she's just there earning her paycheck, but that's to be expected though. My opinion for Aoki however, went up significantly. He could have used the trump card of telling about the marks on Rin's neck, but he held his tongue. In the end, he had no concrete evidence that Reiji did this to Rin. Aoki would have only isolated Rin further by mentioning this. But where Aoki was really smart was how he told Rin to speak her mind and make her feelings be heard. Although Reiji might be whack job (unbeknownst to Rin), she still loved him and she didn't want to be separated from him. Whether or not this is good for Rin in long run, depends on if Reiji comes to his senses and stops treating her as a replacement for Aki. It'll be interesting to see how this works out.
|
2008-03-25, 14:21 | Link #836 |
Live, Love & Learn.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Currently Living on Earth.
|
Lunar Archivist, you have once again enlightened us with your words of wisdom on this particular matter, many thanks for taking your time doing so, I said this because after reading your posts I actually see more clear what's happening.
But like some said in previous post, we're just humans, and therefore our paths will be filled with all sort of obstacles, some may get past them, some may fall, but if you fall and get up, then you have conquered it and thus becomes a valuble lesson in life. We saw that Aoki has bumped his head many, many times before realizing what's truly important and that's one of the things that makes you a grown up; as for Reiji he's more like growing down, he just can't get up from the obstacle that was the loss of Aki, yes it may sound harsh, but isn't overcoming difficult situations part of growing up? My only hope is that after this dramatical encounter and with the possibility of losing Rin, he wakes up from his delusional and sick (excuse my french) intentions towards her. As for Rin I don't know what gonna be of her, this "it could have been my fault that my mother almost died when I was born" thing, has left Rin mental state on floors, as she feels guilty for it, and to make matters worst, Aoki is paying the price for "butting in family affairs", let's hope Shirai can save him in time.
__________________
Last edited by Inanimated_object; 2008-03-25 at 14:58. Reason: gram. errors |
2008-03-25, 17:58 | Link #837 | |||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
An hypothetical purse snatcher running away is already a delinquent. While it's not certain he has a knife he'll pull on you if you interfere, it's still worth considering. And my main point was that interfering in the business of strangers isn't the same as interfering in the business of someone you know and like. Not being the sort to do the former doesn't mean you won't do the latter. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sure, culture may change the meaning of their behaviors somewhat. But in this particular case... How? I suppose you could say it makes Aoki's presence less weird, since Japanese teachers are more involved with their students' personal lives than Western ones (I don't know about other countries, but France's teachers don't go around visiting their students' homes, for example...) Quote:
|
|||||
2008-03-25, 18:32 | Link #838 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
At least until recently, Japanese teachers were deeply involved in their student's lives and parents would quake if the teacher didn't approve of some family life situation. Being called to a parent-teacher conference was terrifying for the parents.
Unfortunately (in most cases), the teachers were hamstrung because of educational reforms a few years ago and in many cases, the parents have NOT stepped up to the plate. So much so that authorities are reconsidering many of these reforms. Most anime and mangaka though, grew up in the older school ways and that's why you see it still played out in those forms of entertainment. Almost all "daily life" anime/manga like this is nostalgic in some sense.
__________________
|
2008-03-25, 21:19 | Link #839 | |
Kazumi sure is cute...
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Jacksonville Florida
Age: 40
|
Quote:
Also about the childrens desires. Most children are not allowed to make choices because they lack the ability to see in the future. If you ask a child rins age, if she would rather get a grand estate, valued in the millions, or a bunch of sexy clothes, a large amount of pocky, and the man of her dreams, I am positive she will choose the dream man package. Why, because she can only think about now, the estate has no value to her, because she does not understand it. I understand it is all about her choice, the ability for her to exercise her choice. But most grown ups feel she will make the wrong choice, so they make it for her. Staying with reiji is the best emotionally, daisuke sexually, and pops finacially. So Which is the best? Can we decided that? Can the characters decided that? I think not, only rin can, based on her emotional state at that very moment. When rin grows up, she may think, kuso I made the wrong choice. But I am positive it will feel better if she made the wrong choice, than if someone else made the right choice for her (without her input). Wow I guess I am just rambling now, lol. Well it all boils down to, adults do not let kids make choices because they do not understand, and I think rin should be permitted to choose.
__________________
|
|
2008-03-26, 06:37 | Link #840 |
~ You're dead ^__^* ~
Graphic Designer
|
For argument's sake I would say that Rin do understand what riches are (but she knows a lot of other things as well for her age ~ blame Reiji).
In a situation like this I would say that you have to consider what the child thinks as well as opposed to what the adults do. IRL such a small child won't be able to make the correct decision (due to the temptation of candy on the side) but for this story I assume that Rin definitely have a clear picture of the situation (and I suspect that she knows that Reiji has been crossing the line with their skinship). Yet the reason why she did choose Reiji was because she just can't see the stranger as a father. Be it anger for what he did to her mother or whether she just doesn't want to be torn away from her friends, she make her mind knowing all about the situation. Nut of course, it's very hard to expect a real child of her age to do the same, no matter how smart they are. I also can't see how leaving it up to the adults in this case will help. Reiji arguing with her father will bring no conclusion, and worse yet if it has to go to court. Aoki has no right to input his own opinions, so all that is left IS Rin to decide (and the only person any of the adults will listen to).
__________________
|
Tags |
comedy, growing up, loli, school life, seinen |
|
|