AnimeSuki Forums

Kirroha · 2010-12-21, 07:22

He should've thought before I spoke. XD

Swigun · 2010-12-21, 07:47

At the time of Ep7's release there was this screen

Spoiler for ep7 screen?:

Was it a fake? I didn't find it in the translation.

Jan-Poo · 2010-12-21, 07:49

Yeah I remember that, it was posted in the Italian forum, right?

It's fake.

Kirroha · 2010-12-21, 09:35

There is one thing I'm confused about. Why are Kanon and Shannon so clueless when it came to Lion in EP7? It's understandable why they won't recognize him/her, being in a different kakera and all, but by that point in time, isn't Yasu already aware that her birth name is Ushiromiya Lion? Won't she have thought that something was up when someone else appears bearing her real name?

einhorn303 · 2010-12-21, 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirroha

There is one thing I'm confused about. Why are Kanon and Shannon so clueless when it came to Lion in EP7? It's understandable why they won't recognize him/her, being in a different kakera and all, but by that point in time, isn't Yasu already aware that her birth name is Ushiromiya Lion? Won't she have thought that something was up when someone else appears bearing her real name?

It's not strange if Shannon and Yasu/Beatrice are still split personalities, and only the Yasu/Beatrice side knows about the Lion birth name.

Kirroha · 2010-12-21, 10:04

I really doubt they're literally split personalities as in dissociative identity disorder where a personality does not remember anything the other personality experiences, and split personalities don't act that way that Yasu experienced. You can't have two personalities talking at the same time if it's a split personality, for example. Thus, it's most likely more of Yasu's imagination than anything else. So why can't she remember about Lion?

Though since Kinzo is still alive... maybe it was just a kakera where Yasu never found the gold, and Genji never told Kinzo the truth.

Vylen · 2010-12-21, 10:37

Split personalities or not - whatever they are, they're ideals represented in human form, and these ideals were ways in which Yasu wanted to live her life. Jessica explained that about herself and her theory about Maria's behaviour to Will.

And, they're just pieces behaving as they must according to Bern. Will points it out that while everyone in the Ushiryomiya family know and recognise Lion as part of them, the stories they recount to Will are the ones where Lion doesn't exist. So it's not necessarily unusual for Shanon and Kanon to not recognise Lion - since, presumably, they were made not to on the board.

Also, Kinzo being alive is just how that fragment plays out with Lion being accepted by Natsuhi... since Lion is alive, the epitaph is never put up, and no one looks for the gold. Genji doesn't need to tell Kinzo anything, since well.. Lion is right there.

[EDIT] Oh, another thing to think about is how Lion doesn't remember Kanon and Shannon's names... Lion explains it away as how servants come and go... but if Shannon is still Shannon, then she's been working for the family for years - Lion should know her name. This sorta comes back to Bern just not bothering with having Lion know who they are. But, aside from thinking of it like that, it's also another way of showing (hinting?) how Shannon and Kanon don't "exist" if Lion "exists" in their perspective worlds and vice versa.

witchfan · 2010-12-21, 10:40

She's confused about there being another person, who is referred to by everyone as the successor. His name should serve to confuse her even more. Is there something unusual about it?

Jan-Poo · 2010-12-21, 11:30

Well Kanon and Shannon were never shown as knowing that they are the same person nor as knowing that Beatrice is basically the same as them in EP1-5.

Even supposing there's no split personality, then Yasu understood that that double of herself shouldn't exist but she still remained in character with her personalities.

Plus what exactly could she say? "Hey everyone, the real Lion it's me!" Probably not a smart idea...

But well... in the end she actually dropped the mask and showed herself, once Will already exposed everything. She wasn't surprised or anything so we can assume she understood the situation even before.

sailorsean · 2010-12-21, 11:56

All right. After several re-reads, this is my theory on Episode 7. Keep in mind, this is only a theory, and I haven't even bothered going through all these posts, so if someone already posted this, then please disregard this post.

Anyway, I think that it's pretty much heavily implied that Yasu plays the role of Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice.
Just like in the beginning of Ep. 7, when Will asks to speak to both Shannon and Kanon, Shannon wouldn't allow that. Well she could of, however she warned Will. That alone formed in my mind that Shannon and Kanon had to have been the same person. Yasu shows affection for the cousins in his Kanon form. However, in Shannon's form, Yasu falls in love with Battler. Later in the play, Yasu decides that the love is too much to bear and decides to give all their feelings to it's other self known as Beatrice Ruler of Rokkenjima's night. That in turn makes Beatrice fall in love with Battler. Who is still Yasu. I think just like in Maria's case that it could also be considered as a form of escapism. Just like how Maria wants to become a witch. Yasu also does this, and gives their love away to their other more powerful alter ego.

However, I am still confused on the whole different Beatrices' thing. I get that there were two real Beatrices' - Beatrice Castiglioni, (Yasu's grandmother) and Beatrice the Second (Yasu's mother) Yasu became Beatrice who rules over Rokkenjima's night... And then there's what I call, the original Beatrice who we're all familiar with from Ep. 1-4 and supposedly died at the end of Ep. 5. Just who was SHE? Was she pretty much a witch on the same caliber as Bern and Lambda? Also, what really happened to Beatrice reborn at the end of Ep. 6? She somehow gained back all of her old traits back from the other previous games and went along with that to save Battler.

AuraTwilight · 2010-12-21, 12:55

Even in the fantasy perspective, Beatrice wasn't a witch on Bern's and Lambda's level. In reality, she's basically a stage magician. Lambdadelta, who may possess real magic, apparently acknowledged and supported her. I imagine Lambda entered her dream or something and then used her power to make the Meta-World or some crazy shit. I don't know, and it's really irrelevant in the end.

Point is, Yasu/Beatrice did not have magical powers. As for Beatrice at the end of EP6, she died. She died in the way she wanted to, though. She was essentially revived purely so that Battler could settle his business with her, then she peacefully returned to the grave with the story Battler wrote for her.

witchfan · 2010-12-21, 13:48

I'm beginning to think Ryukishi created Yasu just to spite us. I can't see how any regular "multiple personality" theory could work.

Cao Ni Ma · 2010-12-21, 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by witchfan

I'm beginning to think Ryukishi created Yasu just to spite us. I can't see how any regular "multiple personality" theory could work.

I still think that large parts of the story where placed there just to make them fester in the 6 months that it takes for the new chapters to come out. RK07 would just check the internet to see how people are reacting to it and the new theories that come out of it. He then incorporates those theories into the games to lead or mislead people from the real truth.

witchfan · 2010-12-21, 14:22

I think that's exactly what he does. He takes popular theories and writes them into the story to separate the fanbase. How else would keep thousands of minds working together from solving the mystery for half a decade otherwise?

Jan-Poo · 2010-12-21, 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorsean

However, I am still confused on the whole different Beatrices' thing. I get that there were two real Beatrices' - Beatrice Castiglioni, (Yasu's grandmother) and Beatrice the Second (Yasu's mother) Yasu became Beatrice who rules over Rokkenjima's night... And then there's what I call, the original Beatrice who we're all familiar with from Ep. 1-4 and supposedly died at the end of Ep. 5. Just who was SHE? Was she pretty much a witch on the same caliber as Bern and Lambda? Also, what really happened to Beatrice reborn at the end of Ep. 6? She somehow gained back all of her old traits back from the other previous games and went along with that to save Battler.

look at this chart

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=9481

Anyway Beatrice has never been on the same level with Lambda and Bern. She is a witch, but the same tittle has been given to Battler, Virgilia, Evatrice, Angetrice, Erika. That's not a big deal apparently.

However Lambda and Bern are the only witches that have been said to be "witches of the senate". What is this "Senate" is anyone's guess, but apparently that gives them a superior rank.

BTW I don't remember that it was ever said that Featherinne is also a witch of the senate. But it appears she's an even stronger witch...

AuraTwilight · 2010-12-21, 14:41

Also, Bern and Lambda are Voyagers. Featherine is also like....woah, the fuck, she's old and powerful. I get the feeling she's like a few steps away from Creator status.

Jan-Poo · 2010-12-21, 14:47

If I'd have to go with impressions...

My impression is if Lambda and Bern are voyagers witches that can travel at will through many different fragments, all the stories of all the countries and epochs that were ever made or even thought, then Featherinne is a witch that can do the same.... except she doesn't travel... the fragments go to her at her commands.

witchfan · 2010-12-21, 15:02

Quote:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=9481

Oh. NOW we get it! :- )

Jan-Poo · 2010-12-21, 15:30

And that chart still misses Virgilia (former Beatrice), Eva-Beatrice, and Ange-Beatrice

CrimsonMoonMist · 2010-12-21, 16:07

I kinda figured Virgillia was just another one of Yasu's delusions created in Kumasawa's image as a great elder Witch
like how Ronove is to Genji and Gaap is to the 'Beatrice' of the original witch ghost stories Yasu was told
before there was any "image" of what Beatrice was supposed to look like.
Then again, as i am now, i probably have lots of faulty theories, and this may very possibly be one of them.

2010-12-21, 07:22	Link #2121
Kirroha Just... disturbed. Join Date: Dec 2009	He should've thought before I spoke. XD __________________ Play RE: Prince of Nigeria here!

2010-12-21, 07:47	Link #2122
Swigun Ars Magica Translator Join Date: Oct 2010	At the time of Ep7's release there was this screen Spoiler for ep7 screen?: where Bern 'kills' minor characters. Was it a fake? I didn't find it in the translation. __________________

2010-12-21, 07:49	Link #2123
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Yeah I remember that, it was posted in the Italian forum, right? It's fake. __________________

2010-12-21, 09:35	Link #2124
Kirroha Just... disturbed. Join Date: Dec 2009	There is one thing I'm confused about. Why are Kanon and Shannon so clueless when it came to Lion in EP7? It's understandable why they won't recognize him/her, being in a different kakera and all, but by that point in time, isn't Yasu already aware that her birth name is Ushiromiya Lion? Won't she have thought that something was up when someone else appears bearing her real name? __________________ Play RE: Prince of Nigeria here!

2010-12-21, 10:04	Link #2126
Kirroha Just... disturbed. Join Date: Dec 2009	I really doubt they're literally split personalities as in dissociative identity disorder where a personality does not remember anything the other personality experiences, and split personalities don't act that way that Yasu experienced. You can't have two personalities talking at the same time if it's a split personality, for example. Thus, it's most likely more of Yasu's imagination than anything else. So why can't she remember about Lion? Though since Kinzo is still alive... maybe it was just a kakera where Yasu never found the gold, and Genji never told Kinzo the truth. __________________ Play RE: Prince of Nigeria here!

2010-12-21, 10:37	Link #2127
Vylen Apprentice Sorcerer Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Where the Kangaroos Cry.	Split personalities or not - whatever they are, they're ideals represented in human form, and these ideals were ways in which Yasu wanted to live her life. Jessica explained that about herself and her theory about Maria's behaviour to Will. And, they're just pieces behaving as they must according to Bern. Will points it out that while everyone in the Ushiryomiya family know and recognise Lion as part of them, the stories they recount to Will are the ones where Lion doesn't exist. So it's not necessarily unusual for Shanon and Kanon to not recognise Lion - since, presumably, they were made not to on the board. Also, Kinzo being alive is just how that fragment plays out with Lion being accepted by Natsuhi... since Lion is alive, the epitaph is never put up, and no one looks for the gold. Genji doesn't need to tell Kinzo anything, since well.. Lion is right there. [EDIT] Oh, another thing to think about is how Lion doesn't remember Kanon and Shannon's names... Lion explains it away as how servants come and go... but if Shannon is still Shannon, then she's been working for the family for years - Lion should know her name. This sorta comes back to Bern just not bothering with having Lion know who they are. But, aside from thinking of it like that, it's also another way of showing (hinting?) how Shannon and Kanon don't "exist" if Lion "exists" in their perspective worlds and vice versa. Last edited by Vylen; 2010-12-21 at 10:50.

2010-12-21, 10:40	Link #2128
witchfan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010	She's confused about there being another person, who is referred to by everyone as the successor. His name should serve to confuse her even more. Is there something unusual about it?

2010-12-21, 11:30	Link #2129
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Well Kanon and Shannon were never shown as knowing that they are the same person nor as knowing that Beatrice is basically the same as them in EP1-5. Even supposing there's no split personality, then Yasu understood that that double of herself shouldn't exist but she still remained in character with her personalities. Plus what exactly could she say? "Hey everyone, the real Lion it's me!" Probably not a smart idea... But well... in the end she actually dropped the mask and showed herself, once Will already exposed everything. She wasn't surprised or anything so we can assume she understood the situation even before. __________________

2010-12-21, 11:56	Link #2130
sailorsean Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Silver Millennium Moon Kingdom	All right. After several re-reads, this is my theory on Episode 7. Keep in mind, this is only a theory, and I haven't even bothered going through all these posts, so if someone already posted this, then please disregard this post. Anyway, I think that it's pretty much heavily implied that Yasu plays the role of Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice. Just like in the beginning of Ep. 7, when Will asks to speak to both Shannon and Kanon, Shannon wouldn't allow that. Well she could of, however she warned Will. That alone formed in my mind that Shannon and Kanon had to have been the same person. Yasu shows affection for the cousins in his Kanon form. However, in Shannon's form, Yasu falls in love with Battler. Later in the play, Yasu decides that the love is too much to bear and decides to give all their feelings to it's other self known as Beatrice Ruler of Rokkenjima's night. That in turn makes Beatrice fall in love with Battler. Who is still Yasu. I think just like in Maria's case that it could also be considered as a form of escapism. Just like how Maria wants to become a witch. Yasu also does this, and gives their love away to their other more powerful alter ego. However, I am still confused on the whole different Beatrices' thing. I get that there were two real Beatrices' - Beatrice Castiglioni, (Yasu's grandmother) and Beatrice the Second (Yasu's mother) Yasu became Beatrice who rules over Rokkenjima's night... And then there's what I call, the original Beatrice who we're all familiar with from Ep. 1-4 and supposedly died at the end of Ep. 5. Just who was SHE? Was she pretty much a witch on the same caliber as Bern and Lambda? Also, what really happened to Beatrice reborn at the end of Ep. 6? She somehow gained back all of her old traits back from the other previous games and went along with that to save Battler.

2010-12-21, 12:55	Link #2131
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	Even in the fantasy perspective, Beatrice wasn't a witch on Bern's and Lambda's level. In reality, she's basically a stage magician. Lambdadelta, who may possess real magic, apparently acknowledged and supported her. I imagine Lambda entered her dream or something and then used her power to make the Meta-World or some crazy shit. I don't know, and it's really irrelevant in the end. Point is, Yasu/Beatrice did not have magical powers. As for Beatrice at the end of EP6, she died. She died in the way she wanted to, though. She was essentially revived purely so that Battler could settle his business with her, then she peacefully returned to the grave with the story Battler wrote for her. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2010-12-21, 13:48	Link #2132
witchfan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010	I'm beginning to think Ryukishi created Yasu just to spite us. I can't see how any regular "multiple personality" theory could work.

2010-12-21, 14:22	Link #2134
witchfan Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010	I think that's exactly what he does. He takes popular theories and writes them into the story to separate the fanbase. How else would keep thousands of minds working together from solving the mystery for half a decade otherwise?

2010-12-21, 14:41	Link #2136
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	Also, Bern and Lambda are Voyagers. Featherine is also like....woah, the fuck, she's old and powerful. I get the feeling she's like a few steps away from Creator status. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2010-12-21, 14:47	Link #2137
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	If I'd have to go with impressions... My impression is if Lambda and Bern are voyagers witches that can travel at will through many different fragments, all the stories of all the countries and epochs that were ever made or even thought, then Featherinne is a witch that can do the same.... except she doesn't travel... the fragments go to her at her commands. __________________

2010-12-21, 15:30	Link #2139
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	And that chart still misses Virgilia (former Beatrice), Eva-Beatrice, and Ange-Beatrice __________________

2010-12-21, 16:07	Link #2140
CrimsonMoonMist Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Age: 30	I kinda figured Virgillia was just another one of Yasu's delusions created in Kumasawa's image as a great elder Witch like how Ronove is to Genji and Gaap is to the 'Beatrice' of the original witch ghost stories Yasu was told before there was any "image" of what Beatrice was supposed to look like. Then again, as i am now, i probably have lots of faulty theories, and this may very possibly be one of them. Last edited by CrimsonMoonMist; 2010-12-21 at 16:29.