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View Poll Results: Ore no Imouto - Episode 10 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 31 | 34.44% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 25 | 27.78% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 14 | 15.56% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 11 | 12.22% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 5 | 5.56% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 1 | 1.11% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 1 | 1.11% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 2 | 2.22% | |
Voters: 90. You may not vote on this poll |
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2010-12-07, 07:01 | Link #121 | |||||||||||||
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Character development and relationship development are not one and the same. Nobody here is saying that relationships aren't developing, but rather that there isn't much character development for most of the main characters, particularly our two leads.
You can have very static characters, and still loads of relationship development. Conversely, you can have character development but relationship dynamics don't change. And I'm not just saying this to pull a random rebuttal out of nowhere. In a post I made on the Episode 7 Discussion Thread back in mid-November, I made the same observation as it pertains to this anime. Now, with this distinction between character development and relationship development in mind, let's go over your list and see which ones are character development and which ones are relationship development. Quote:
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So, in conclusion, Ayase enjoyed a lot of good character development this episode, which is great. The rest of the cast (and in particular our two leads) is as static as ever, though. There was some very slight hints of relationship development in this episode, but even these are thoroughly standard fare for a harem anime, and honestly I don't know if they're even worth a mention. I mean, they're the absolute bare minimum for what I'd expect out of a harem anime. Quote:
Tsunderes (good ones, anyway) usually enjoy decent character development. This means that they gradually grow less abrasive, friendlier to the other characters around them (particularly when it comes to the male lead), and more willing to let their true feelings come out (i.e. they don't hide them behind a tsuntsun shield constantly). Quote:
That being said... this is Episode 10 of an one cour anime. I wouldn't fault someone for expecting character development to be a bit more out there and obvious at this point. It's great and fine to subtly hint at, or lightly foreshadow, character development when you're in the early or middle stages of a story. However, we're now pulling away into the final stages of this anime (its first season, at the very least). There arguably should now be some sort of sense that those earlier hints of character development (which genuinely are sprinkled all over the first few episodes of this anime, I'll gladly admit) are leading into more clear-cut character development. For example, many of us speculated several episodes ago that Kyousuke might become an otaku himself, and/or perhaps that his own personal liking for Kirino's otaku interests is a key reason for why he's helping her (and her friends) out so much. And there were hints of just that (such as Kyousuke getting very excited over completing a route in an eroge several episodes ago). Well, why not build further on that, at this point in the narrative, by showing Kyousuke reading a manga for his own personal interest, or him buying an anime DVD for an anime that looks appealing to him? I mean, at least it would be something to show that his character isn't static. Instead he's just chugging along, constantly coming to the aid of his sister and her friends just like he's been doing for the better part of this anime. We have no better idea now of why he does it than we did back in Episode 3 or 4. Yes, he may very well have a crush on one or more of Kirino's friends, but that can't completely explain it. Or even if it can, if this is the reason why, then it probably should be hinted at more at this point. One final note - In my view, lots of relationship development with little or no character development = soap opera. After the first five episodes of this anime, I was really hoping for more than an anime soap opera.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2010-12-08 at 12:37. Reason: inflammatory comment from quotes removed |
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2010-12-07, 07:52 | Link #122 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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And with that you're falling into the primary trap of anime watching: You have your own ideas what you want to see and get, and you're not getting it, so it's the fault of the anime. That's simply not how it works.
There's no law that says that main characters have to undergo massive developments. That's ONE way to do it, but not the only way. Kyousuke HAS undergone gradual developments, from being a total non-otaku to someone who is at least competent in this area. And while he has had a non-relationship with Kirino in the beginning, he's now talking freely and openly with her, to the degree that she is complaining how he's starting to develop his own bonds with what were initially Kirino's newfound friends. But some aspects of him are indeed static, because they DEFINE him. He's someone who is willing to suffer abuse and hardship to help those people he WANTS to help. And - unfortunately for him - he's not receiving the appreciation for that he deserves. Sure - you could write the story differently, make him agonize over whether or not to form something of a romantic relationship with Kirino, etc etc. But that's not how the show works till now. They're going for a much more sober approach so far. And if they outsource the "true ending" to DVDs/Blurays, then they'll probably have a reason for that. I could imagine that it might not be suitable for public TV. Finally this "Soap Opera" dissing. Pleeeeeease. This show has done a great job thematizing LOTS of issues in a very clear-sighted way. Issues of public perception of Otakus in family, friends and school/work circles. Creation of materials (novels, animes) and issues surrounding that. And and and. Denigrating all that with "Soap Opera" is among the biggest failures to properly classify an anime I've read in the last year. Sorry. |
2010-12-07, 08:19 | Link #123 | ||||||||
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The thing is, the two leads for this anime are not having their characters developed to any significant extent in any way, shape, or form. For example, while I was not a fan of Episode 8, it at least offered ways for Kirino to develop as a character that goes beyond where she was several episodes ago. Why not show how she reacts to the anime adaptation of her work? Perhaps we could see her talk with Kuroneko over how good or bad the adaptation was, and that could be a catalyst for Kirino and Kuroneko getting along a bit better. Perhaps we could see her being disappointed with how the anime turned out, but then later come to a surprisingly calm acceptance of that, hence showing a different side of her personality and more emotional range (and you wouldn't even have to make her dere to do it, for those who don't want her to become dere at all). But no, all we ever see of Kirino is SuperTsun or Geekgasm, 24/7. And maybe once in a blue moon she'll try to patch up an existing friendship. That's not exactly a well-rounded character, is it? Quote:
I think that most of us here would agree that this is a character-driven show. A character-driven show (that isn't a pure comedy) pretty much requires character development. If this was a plot-driven show, I could see static leads working well. But not when the characters make the show much moreso than any overarching plot does. Quote:
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The thought had crossed my mind. Not a terribly easy character to relate to, though... Quote:
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Just ask any Bakuman fan about this, and you'll see what I mean. Quote:
My point, again, is that it's starting to feel like an anime soap opera. If I felt that it was an anime soap opera from the very beginning, I wouldn't have had reason to hope for more than that, would I?
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2010-12-07 at 08:31. |
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2010-12-07, 09:02 | Link #124 |
the cynic
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Somewhere between life and death.
Age: 42
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God I love this show. XD
It's now beyond doubt, Kirino's abusive behaviour is a cover (to convince others and herself) for her (improper) feelings towards Kyousuke. LMAO, Ayase is such a terrible person. Conning her friend into cosplaying to get a prize, then promptly forget to bring her her change of clothes after the event - Kyousuke appears to have forgotten about it too. :P Ayase and Kyousuke really do make a cute couple. ^_^ They are both standbyers of the craziness of otaku culture.
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2010-12-07, 10:49 | Link #125 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
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2010-12-07, 12:21 | Link #126 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Here I find myself kind of agreeing with multiple positions... I think there's been a lot of good character and story development, but there could easily have been much more (based on what I've learned about the source material in the last 24 hours) despite the tight time budget. We've got poorly paid writing staff working under absurd deadlines trying to adapt excellent source material for a number of anime. Sometimes you get lucky, often you don't.
I still consider this one of the better series in the last couple of years because of the issues it tries to address (as I do the Zakuro series and its disguised examination of racial tensions and prejudice) but also realize any shortcomings in the adaptation.
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2010-12-07, 12:24 | Link #127 |
Tomoe Mami Fan
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Personally, the series stagnated after episode three.
I'm not denying the fact that there has been overall development in the past episodes, but it doesn't really feel like it's going anywhere, at least when it concerns Kirino/anything directly connected to Kirino outside of Kuroneko and Saori (the latter appears to have a dedicated episode coming up so that will be interesting). Also, the news concerning the attempts at two different endings when the actual serialization isn't over to begin with is...
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2010-12-07, 13:51 | Link #128 |
Porcupine
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Norway
Age: 65
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In line with several of the preceding comments, I agree that this is a decent anime, but fails to live up to its potential. As I see it, most of the episodes have been filler episodes, in the sense that there seems to be no clear plotline that weaves them together. They are simply snapshots from a number of novels that are really hard to condense because much of the "action" is actually in the head of the narrator.
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2010-12-07, 15:47 | Link #129 | |
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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Ore no Imouto... I'm willing to forgive the breakneck pacing, as while it would have been nice for things like Ayase's family background to be included, the story is still fantastic without them. The changes made to episode eight, however, really did bother me. The series has had two fantastic arcs so far (episode 1-3 and 4-5), but I feel it needs one more to make the leap from "show I love" to "genuinely great anime" - that should have been episodes 7-8, but it wasn't. Episodes 9 and 10 were both solid episodes - hell, nine was absolutely hilarious - but they don't quite fit the bill either.
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2010-12-07, 16:43 | Link #130 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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2010-12-07, 17:32 | Link #131 | |
~Official Slacker~
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 29
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2010-12-07, 18:00 | Link #134 |
~Official Slacker~
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 29
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Vexx has a good mind on this
If they left us with a cliffhanger, and no chance of a second season... Its gonna make the fans very depressed I just hope they don't rush something with the episodes they have left.
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2010-12-07, 19:06 | Link #136 |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the content of the endings has been announced yet. But given that they're "Good" and "True" Endings, I think they'll both be routes for the same heroine (Kirino). Time will tell, of course.
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2010-12-07, 19:55 | Link #137 |
Dango Daikaizoku
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southern California
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Triple_R covered most of what I wanted to say about the development (or lack thereof) in the characters of oreimo. I would, however, like to elaborate on the distinction I draw between character development and plot development and how it works with respect to ep10 of oreimo.
I feel like episode 10 had a lot of what I would call plot development. Things I would categorize as plot development include revelations about a character's past, introduction of new characters etc. Examples of this in ep10 would include the introduction/expansion of kanakana's character, explanation of how ayase feels about gravure modeling vs cosplay etc. These are events/ideas that change how the viewer thinks about a character by revealing more about the character. Conversely, there was minimal character development in episode 10. In my mind, character development occurs when I character acts in one way, and then acts differently later in response to to some kind of trigger in the plot. Oreimo in general has been severely lacking in this department. The only real character development in this episode was the fact that Ayase now is willing to try to be friends with Kirino despite her anime/eroge obsessions. However, this is minimal development as Ayase still insists that she hates those things and beyond that it only involves a minor side-character rather than one of the main characters. We have not seen a lot of cases of events that change how the viewer feels about a character by changing how the character acts. This isn't to say that what I describe as plot development is necessarily bad. I just find that if a character-driven show relies entirely on plot developments to define its characters rather than having those characters grow and change in their own right then the show feels quite hollow.
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2010-12-07, 20:19 | Link #138 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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I don't want deliver a eulogy.... but a persistent theme in execution of anime seems to be "set up great premise, interesting characters, and then.... trip, stumble, do nothing, reset, fall, veer into left field, leave a pile of great arc starts on the ground". Doesn't matter what genre really - its like a character flaw of production teams.
Back on topic... I suppose the ultimate question is whether the series will lead people to read the source material and buy the products. So far its gotten me interesting in seeking out the source material but in some part due to aggravation
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2010-12-07, 21:16 | Link #139 |
Rewrite of the Life
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Pretty amusing episode despite the female lead >.> What I just want to know is when will he just punch her one right in the face. No brother I know would put up with being kicked and hit like that all the time. If I did that I would get hit back regardless if I'm a girl. It is getting really old.
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2010-12-07, 21:24 | Link #140 | |||||
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To elaborate further on that, one thing that I think Ore no Imouto has going for it is that its primary supporting cast characters (Ayase, Kuroneko, Manami, and Saori) are all excellent. This is a very strong supporting cast for the two leads; it gives the two leads some good characters to play off of, and have as foils. Part of me just can't help but feel that perhaps even more could be done with these superb characters in being good contributors to Kyousuke and Kirino developing as characters too. Quote:
Personally, I think that's an admirably fair and reasonable approach on Ayase's part. It's a lot more thoughtful approach than her initial response several episodes ago of just painting everything of the otaku world with the same "It's indecent" brush. Quote:
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In fairness, part of it is probably the inherent difficulty in adapting a light novel with a lot of internal dialogue (i.e. a character speaking a lot in a narrator voice) that has not been concluded yet. Some of this content is just hard to translate over into a visual/audio medium like anime. Still, some of the choices the production team has made for this anime are head-scratchers for me. There is a great premise and interesting characters here, but also some trips and stumbles to be sure. Oh well, I hope that this anime has a good ending with Episode 12 anyway. Next episode looks somewhat promising.
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