Kanon - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Kagikkos only)

[Devil Doll]

Which ending would satisfy the crowd out there?

I wouldn't be satisfied if Yuuichi chose a girl whom he pities. Which reduces the chances of Shiori as well as Nayuki - even when he finds out what Nayuki feels for him he never felt the same for her so far, she was clearly less important to him than Ayu. I would rather want to see Yuuichi choose a girl whom he already liked but forgot - which would then have to be Ayu or Mai. I would be fine with the more mature Yuuichi in 2k6 choosing his senpai Mai instead of the childish Ayu, that's why the current arc of 2k6 might be the most interesting one for me.

Then again, Mai's arc is indeed too early in the series, and I guess Mai is destined to stay with Sayuri if we see more of Sayuri's arc. Plus Ayu is so dominant in the OP that everything other than Ayu winning (possibly with the help of some Minase lady at the hospital; Ayu looking after Akiko during this woman's cold allowed the girl to grow in 2k2) would be a big surprise.
Nayuki being the hyperactive variant in 2k2 gave her at least some chance that Yuuichi might fall for her; if she's giving up at this point (after asking Yuuichi whether he remembers his past now) then she's out of the game for sure, she doesn't earn the victory then.


And with the "Ayu incident" causing the whole scenario of Kanon, how much additional emotional damage can Yuuichi take anyway? Not much, if we believe Akiko. So it's not too likely that we see a character die.

If Shiori were dying, which effect would that have on the relationship between Kaori and Kitawaga? Kaori would be freed from watching her dying sister every day, and Kitagawa might offer her some reasonable support (interfering in the Mai arc upgraded his role significantly). Could he possible become more than a comic relief in the end?

If Mai were committing suicide the effect on both Sayuri and Yuuichi would be devastating; if Sayuri were killed by the demons then how would Mai ever recover? I see no real alternative to the 2k2 version of her arc, with Mai actively supporting Sayuri against Kuze as a potential bonus of 2k6.
Mai is a victim (taking collateral damage of the Ayu incident) and Sayuri is her saviour - it's as simple as that. Yuuichi alone can only save Mai if he chooses her, not just by apologizing - we saw that in 2k2 already. Mai needs one person who will never abandon her.

If Nayuki would die then what effect would that have on Akiko who knows the whole story but chose to stay at the sideline?

Ayu dying would actually be the most likely candidate as she can sacrifice herself by using her last wish for someone else. Would it be logical enough to let her make the decision to give up waiting when her "astral body" observes Yuuichi falling in love with another girl? Would she be fine with Yuuichi choosing Nayuki (whom Ayu admires) or Mai (whom Ayu at least respects now)?

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Devil Doll

~ If Nayuki would die then what effect would that have on Akiko who knows the whole story but chose to stay at the sideline? ~

Eh?

What makes you think Nayuki may die? Akiko is the Death Factor in Nayuki's arc, not Nayuki herself.

As for the ending of Kanon, I am okay with anything so long as Ayu croaks. I don't care who Yuuichi ends up with if she does. Heck, he could go gallivanting into the sunset with Mishio for all I care, if Ayu bites the dust.

Cheers.

[npal]

Originally Posted by Skane

As for the ending of Kanon, I am okay with anything so long as Ayu croaks. I don't care who Yuuichi ends up with if she does. Heck, he could go gallivanting into the sunset with Mishio for all I care, if Ayu bites the dust.

Cheers.

Me too, but Ayu fans don't like that idea at all, even when it could make the series better And, unfortunately, judging from the OP/ED sequences, it's gonna be a replay of the 2k2 ending... Oh well... At least KyoAni makes the rest enjoyable. (Not that I didn't like Toei's version).

[Skane]

Originally Posted by npal

Me too, but Ayu fans don't like that idea at all, even when it could make the series better And, unfortunately, judging from the OP/ED sequences, it's gonna be a replay of the 2k2 ending... Oh well... At least KyoAni makes the rest enjoyable. (Not that I didn't like Toei's version).

1) It's KyoAni.
2) Air(TV)

"For the sake of the story, her life must forfeit!"


"You meanies..."

Narf.

[Vexx]

@KenOhki'sRage
itemized remarks ---
1) The Kazehana appearance of Makoto was a copout (I even thought that on first viewing) --- at the least it should have been more abstract and surreal if presented at all. Hopefully KyoAni won't repeat that (or at least will present it in a way more as a daydream or ethereal experience).

2) Actually cousin marriage is acceptable in most of Europe and the US too... we just keep getting confused posters from the minor parts of both areas that think the extra-restrictive rules in their neighborhood are the norm rather than the exception. Discussed to death in any thread where people freak out because two people share the same roof for a period.

3) Mai gets to win or lose for herself, not dependent on being Yuuichi's "girl" (one of the reasons I *like* Kanon --- its not really about the date-sim, its about the resolution of each situation's mystery). Although Yuuichi is clearly impressed with her (I know I am ). Personally I find Yuuichi handing the baton to Sayuri for Mai to be a "save" from the suicide option.

4) Shiori really wants to have her sister back (acknowledging she exists) -- that's her resolution

Despite the fact you can "play the paths" in the game to whatever, for an anime adaptation I have trouble seeing as much drama in any resolution other than either Ayu or Nayuki. Frankly, Ayu sacrificing herself for Nayuki or Nayuki sacrificing her chances for the sake of Ayu both strike me as being very powerful and I'd be good with either as I find them both noble ... though an Ayu sacrifice (being a complete sacrifice) would make me hurt as bad as I did at the end of AIR.

Actually, I'd probably have to drink myself stupid if they took each "unchosen" arc to its worst possible end. eek...

[Meophist]

I won't be too surprised if Makoto makes a return. Amano did seem hint at something like that anyways.

As for Ayu, I don't know. They can kill her or not, I don't think it makes it better or worse.

[npal]

Well, have you seen 2k2 Kanon? Did you feel that the feeling you had that she's dead made the drama worse? I personally thought the way she was brought back was lame, but Ayu fans in particular think otherwise. I was ready for a no girl ending anyway, seemed pretty much the only true choice back then, even if Nayuki was effectively the only girl around. I thought that they couldn't have Yuuichi with Nayuki, because that ending was lacking both in drama and in the development section. But Ayu waking up... bleh... spoiled the whole series... And then appear those that preach the "story theme"...

[Vexx]

heh, I happened to like the Ayu ending at the time (back then I wasn't aware just how tragic some of these romances could get) but mostly because of Nayuki's sacrifice. Having done some research since then (and seeing other series)... an "all the girls die and Nayuki loses her mind when her mother dies" ending is not out of the realm of possiblity, but that enters the realm of serious masochism for my viewing tastes

[Meophist]

Originally Posted by npal

Well, have you seen 2k2 Kanon? Did you feel that the feeling you had that she's dead made the drama worse? I personally thought the way she was brought back was lame, but Ayu fans in particular think otherwise. I was ready for a no girl ending anyway, seemed pretty much the only true choice back then, even if Nayuki was effectively the only girl around. I thought that they couldn't have Yuuichi with Nayuki, because that ending was lacking both in drama and in the development section. But Ayu waking up... bleh... spoiled the whole series... And then appear those that preach the "story theme"...

Yes, I did see '02 Kanon. I don't think her waking up made the series any worse. Why? It's complicated, and I don't know how to explain it, but I don't think Ayu living was bad for the story.

[Devil Doll]

If Ayu hadn't awoken in 2k2 then Ayu's arc would have been identical to Makoto's arc, and Nayuki's role wouldn't have been as good as became due to her sacrifice. I'm not a fan of Ayu but by episode 12 we knew 2k2 was her show... there just had to be some reason for that to make the conclusion satisfying. The same applies to 2k6 so Ayu winning and Ayu sacrificing herself are the two plausible options IMHO.

Personally I would like 2k6 surprising me as I don't expect it to beat 2k2 if telling the same story again; so I'm fine with any number of additional casualties.

[MakubeX2]

Face it, this adapation is made for fans of the game in order to gain profit. (Abelit a good and high quality one that worth spending money on.)

It will go Ayu's route down right to the Epilogue no matter what, Japanese fan will cry sacrilege and it will be 2k2 Kanon again if they stray into anything else.

[KenOhki'sRage]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

It will go Ayu's route down right to the Epilogue no matter what, Japanese fan will cry sacrilege and it will be 2k2 Kanon again if they stray into anything else.

As much as I like Shiori, I must agree.

[npal]

You mean Kanon fanatics won't buy the DVDs, figures, or CDs if Ayu dies? LOL! I hardly believe that will happen.

[MakubeX2]

It's not a matter of whether Ayu dies or not, but a matter of being faithful to the original source.

2k2 fails at that and gets thrown into the abyss by the fans.

[npal]

You mean 2k2 Kanon didn't do well?? Strange, cause I thought it was a perfectly good series (despite the bigger-than-necessary eyes) with a poor ending.

Oh well... I still hope KyoAni does something different with Ayu. I have the same reaction to the arcs as I had in 2k2, even with all the additions and nice KyoAni animation, so unless the ending changes, it'll be the same for me and everyone else that didn't like the 2k2 ending.

Plus, I believe KyoAni has already secured DVD sales, judging from the quality of the series so far. I doubt making the ending better by altering the so-called source will harm production, but the producers know how to milk fans so they'll do whatever brings in more cash, no matter the level of quality.

[MakubeX2]

To quote from another thread :-

Originally Posted by houkoholic

http://www.akibablog.net/archives/2006/12/kanondvd.html

I found this hilarious.
The otakus of Akihabara and shops are celebrating the Kyoani Kanon DVD release as "The first Kanon anime" and bloggers are praising the Kyoani's version as "god send". Yes, people hate the Toei version THAT much and the Kyoani version is THAT good in the eyes of Kanon fans in Japan.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1492

KyoAni will not diviate into anything else if they do not want to cause harms for their video sales. And it's seems that way judging by how they are making Ayu out to be the central character that links everyone together.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

Face it, this adapation is made for fans of the game in order to gain profit. (Abelit a good and high quality one that worth spending money on.)

It will go Ayu's route down right to the Epilogue no matter what, Japanese fan will cry sacrilege and it will be 2k2 Kanon again if they stray into anything else.

As blunt as that is, I have to say that I believe you're absolutely right. Being true to the game's story is what this adaptation has been about from the very moment it was given the green light. The 2002 anime did fine (it wasn't a total sales failure by any means, and was pretty fine judged as a standalone anime), but the game fans disliked it for being so different from the game. After the fans saw how faithful Kyoto Animation's adaptation of AIR was, they started thinking how nice it'd be if they'd remake Kanon faithfully as well. Seeing as the executives realized it'd be like printing money, they agreed, and here we are. There's simply no way they'll deviate from the game story -- not when the entire point of this remake was to make the game fans happy this time (reference the early Kyoto Animation interviews that talk repeatedly about being true to the game, and the 13 already-aired episodes). Like the ending or not, it is the "canon" Kanon (painful pun... unfortunate).

In short, I'm giving 100:1 odds against Skane being "okay with the ending" (as per the definition here). Anyone want to take that bet?

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

In short, I'm giving 100:1 odds against Skane being "okay with the ending" (as per the definition here). Anyone want to take that bet?

Why do I get the feeling that P.T. Barnum's old saying "There's a sucker born every minute." applies here?

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Skane

1) It's KyoAni.
2) Air(TV)

"For the sake of the story, her life must forfeit!"


"You meanies..."

Narf.

It's KyoAni, and they did the same thing with AIR TV. So? One series is by no means a track record reliably indicating what they're going to do with their next KEY series. Besides, I haven't done so myself, but has anyone actually played the AIR game? Because my gut feeling was that KyoAni stayed true to the game in their AIR adapation as well. Which meant Misuzu was supposed to die, even in the original game, anyway.

I may well be wrong, but here's just a thought.

Originally Posted by npal

Well, have you seen 2k2 Kanon? Did you feel that the feeling you had that she's dead made the drama worse? I personally thought the way she was brought back was lame, but Ayu fans in particular think otherwise. I was ready for a no girl ending anyway, seemed pretty much the only true choice back then, even if Nayuki was effectively the only girl around. I thought that they couldn't have Yuuichi with Nayuki, because that ending was lacking both in drama and in the development section. But Ayu waking up... bleh... spoiled the whole series... And then appear those that preach the "story theme"...

Originally Posted by npal

You mean 2k2 Kanon didn't do well?? Strange, cause I thought it was a perfectly good series (despite the bigger-than-necessary eyes) with a poor ending.

Oh well... I still hope KyoAni does something different with Ayu. I have the same reaction to the arcs as I had in 2k2, even with all the additions and nice KyoAni animation, so unless the ending changes, it'll be the same for me and everyone else that didn't like the 2k2 ending.

On my part, I believe why some people didn't like the Ayu ending in 2k2 was because Toei didn't tell her story well enough. Now, as a non-Japanese reader, I naturally have not played any of the games, and thus I can't be expected to actually know what happened in the original Kanon game...but my gut feeling is that Toei did their cut-and-slash method on Ayu's storytelling as well; thus Ayu waking up seemed to come out of nowhere, and seemed to "spoil" the whole Toei series altogether.

I believe the game did a far better job at explaining away Ayu's ending...and I believe KyoAni will do the same when the time comes.

[Skane]

Too many posts to reply to. I'll just summarise all my replies and thoughts into this one post.

I used Air(TV) as an example because it sets precedence for KyoAni to not be afraid of upsetting the audience( both gamer and non-gamer) with the death of a lovable main character.

As for 'hatred', a lot of successful series have a lot of hate as well, but went on to become profitable anyway. Neon Genesis Evangelion is a classic example, where the director ignored his detractors and made NGE accordingly to his own vision. So despite the brick-bracks of the vocal minority, Gainax went on to milk the series for more than 10 years, and it is still going strong...

KGnE is another example where there were a lot of 'haters', because 'ZOMG!', Mitsuki won in the end? A lot of people hated Shuffle!'s ending, and hey, what do you know? It was still profitable enough to spawn another run.

But hey... 'hate' is kinda of a strong word to use.

I prefer to use the term, 'dislike'. It is perfectly fine to dislike something and still accept it in the end. I wasn't entirely satisfied with Canvas2's ending, but I still love the show very much, and if it ever made to R1, I would gladly buy it.

Toei's Kanon is also not that unpopular, you know. A lot of the repeat viewers in this forum have stated their fondness for it, despite its' flaws( no anime is ever perfect anyway, or anything for that matter).

Check out the Kanon(2002) thread sometime.
~~~~ ~~~~

Now... back to the main topic at hand. Why is it that a lot of people seem to enjoy the follow equation?

Dead Ayu = Other Girls Win

Whatever happened to the 'No Girls Win' option? Or the fact that Yuuichi may choose Ayu in the end? I am by no means an Ayu-hater. I LIKE Ayu as a character.

It just doesn't stop me from wanting her to have a semi-tragic end.

KyoAni will have to pull off a pretty inspired chain of events if they want me to accept Ayu's survival. If I... experience that 'cheapened' feeling again, then I am going to consider it a great loss for Kanon(2006), when it could have pulled off another epic bittersweet tragedy and perhaps... enter the pantheon of anime greats.

Cheers.