2007-06-18, 01:29 | Link #65 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
|
Quote:
The main thing I have seen linked to the Japanese military is that the rank names (in Japanese) are the current titles used in the Japanese Air Self Defense force and the Japanese Ground Self Defense Force depending on what position and i'm guessing fighting ability the character has. At times you will hear the full title used and at others the abbreviated title (mainly heard for officer and NCO ranks). Example: Nittou Rikusa ---> Nisa or Rikusoucho ---> Soucho Ground Forces: Erio and Caro are both Santou Rikushi (Recruits). Teana and Suabru are both Nittou Rikushi (Private Second Class) Shari is a Ittou Rikushi (Private First Class) Hayate intially had the rank of Ittou Rikui (Captain) but was promoted to Nitou Rikusa (Lieutenant Colonel) when she took command of Mobile Section 6. Air Forces: Nanoha and Teana's brother have the rank of Ittou Kuui (Captain - Air Force). Signum is a Nittou Kuui (First Lieutenant). I assume Vita and Shamal are the same rank, although the wiki entry says Vita is a Second Lieutenant and I haven't found anything so far in the eps that name her rank. Rein is a Kuusoucho (Chief Master Sergeant) which I find odd since Hayate is in the ground forces dept. Maybe someone can shed some light as to why they may have done this? Fate has the title of Agent. This is similar to the agents in the United States Air Force Office of Special Investigations (OSI) as agents do not have a rank title. See below for info of what OSI does. Breakdown of Japanese Military ranks for Air and Land Forces http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index...id=150&sid=872 http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index...id=150&sid=876 Note: Rank names in Japan were changed after WWII but still retain the same english counterpart. You'll hear the old titles used in series like Gundam though. Anyways, back to the ranks in Nanoha. Info on the Office of Special Investigations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Ai...Investigations Last edited by Okita Souji; 2007-06-18 at 01:41. |
|
2007-07-13, 12:18 | Link #66 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
Quote:
Quote:
Reinforce was helping her, but hey, everyone else were using devices (that they are a lot more familiar with) as well. Her first battle was against a boss. Also, in the comics, she was already being trained as a candidate officer even as her legs were coming up (not a big problem because she could move around quite well transformed). Quote:
Quote:
Some militaries actually formalize advantages for situations where only part of a military goes to fight and gains combat experience. Soviet officers fighting in Afghanistan were counted double - one year in Afghanistan looks like 2 not just on the paybook, but the career/seniority book and time-to-pension book as well. This made a lot more people want to go to what otherwise is a completely hellhole for little gain. This may also explain why Hayate advanced so much faster. From 13 onwards, Nanoha was a Combat Instructor - a privileged and elite position but not one with many chances for combat. Fate is Enforcer, so she has a variety of high and low difficulty jobs. But Hayate probably only gets brought out with her Wolkenritter on the toughest as TSAB's Central's elite Reserve - Special Investigations Officer. She might literally be getting 3-4 years of "book seniority" for every year she actually serves - and it won't be unfair if she is getting the toughest. Quote:
She did, of course, pass the command school exam, and for all we know, she got honors (according to the Japanese NanohaWiki she was promoted two ranks at once, which suggests an honor student). That would suggest on paper she has at least similar abilities to her (presumably much older competitors) in the command school. The exact transition zone for various level changes depending on the military anyway. Quote:
Yuuno, as you know, has been writing papers and by the age of 19 is already a rather well known doctor/professor. Thus, while it is not obvious onscreen, a mage at 10 is actually a genius across at least some parts of the intellectual spectrum. In other words, they are not only promoting the good mages fast, they are also promoting some of the brainiest people fast, and who can argue with that. Quote:
Quote:
The TSAB position is not easily comparable to Western militaries. I've mentioned the way the units are not gaining experience anywhere near evenly. Also, there are many internal circumstances that are not easily seen. Since ranks are but mere decorations, let's look at positions. The seniority one requires to get a particular position actually varies quite widely. The Soviet Army, for example, is a place where officers advance in position (if they are good and if they have connections) very fast. Captains can command battalions (mostly Majors, but some Captains, and you are probably a little slow if you are a Lt.C) and thus it is perfectly possible to get a battalion command before 30 (<10 years of service), as are positions as 3rd (corvette/frigate) and even 2nd rank (destroyer) warship commanders. Even a regimental commander position is achievable at 32. A company you might be able to get as soon as you graduate a military "Higher School" as a Lieutenant. Of course, a compensatory factor with the Soviets is that officers are required to do less in some ways. A company or even battalion have few administrative tasks, for one. They also expend less time in "Joint Duty" assignments. But such factors are less easily seen than the 32-year old Soviet regimental commander. To go in the other direction, the British don't let their officers command companies until they are 35. They also have fewer joint duty assignments. For this reason, the British sometimes worry about the American system. At least the Soviets could say that all they require their junior leaders to do (at minimum) is to execute Column-Prebattle-Battle and back Drills, but company commanders in both the US and British system are required to handled combined arms teams. So, it really all depends. |
||||||||
2007-09-02, 08:29 | Link #67 | ||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
Brought over from other thread to resurrect this one
Taken here from Post 406 of the Manga thread.
Quote:
Quote:
By the way, what if the HQ itself gets attacked, like it did in Ep17. Imagine the battle if Hayate was there trying to command instead of sitting as an influence-less member in Regius' little meeting. Of course, she would have no guards... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It is a matter of physics that for a given power, AoE attacks will have a lower power density than concentrated beam attacks. Quote:
Quote:
You might notice, BTW, that Wingblade and Boomerang were actually winning slowly but surely against Fate, and they weren't looking particularly forced - the only person starting to look exhausted is Fate. Before you blame the AMF, they were winning slowly but surely in Ep17 too - it'd have taken time but in the end they'd have won from the looks of it. Which suggests if it really came down to it, 1 would be able to tie or at least hold out for a while against even an Ace. Twinblades and Raystorm took out 2 of the Wolkenritter rapidly enough (one strike each), even counting their fatigue, I'd give them odds to at least give the two more powerful ones a good run for their money. That leaves Hayate almost wide open. |
||||||||||
2007-09-02, 10:16 | Link #68 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
Brought over from Generic Discussion
Refer to Post 1358
Quote:
It does, to be fair, also have a Heavy Weapons unit - Hayate herself. You can make an ersatz maneuver reserve out of Zafira and reinforce it by pulling the two Knights out of the line. But really, who were they kidding anyway. Limiting ourselves to the chosen raw material, there are two real teams in RF6. The air team and the ground team. The ground team, as the Numbers already noticed, really need all 4 of them as a unit to really become effective, and they would almost never be working with the commanders, especially with Fate who has her own duties. Since Teana is shaping up to be a relatively effective commander (she seems to be the one who can retain any tactical brain cells all the way to Ep26), let her lead the enlisted and forget about pretending there are two teams. Then have the air mages as another group and use them in pairs (preferably in 4s, but this is the TSAB with its Dispersal Policy). Quote:
Quote:
I think we've already seen what the TASB does in this dilemma is to create a strongly hierarchical structure. Concentrate most of the allocation for one commander (the battalion or ship commander) and one adjutant (they call it the Executive Officer). Now put the rest of the allocation among about a company of troops. Because of the strongly sloping effectiveness of mages (a good one beats a hundred wimps), there really is little point in having "average" mages (platoon commanders) in moderate quantities. Just get one or two of the best mages you can, and see if you have enough left to make a bunch of somewhat useful enlisted number-fillers. Leave the rest as support led by a chief of staff - no, of course he's not a mage. This actually works (most of the time) because the TSAB is a paramilitary rather than a full military organization. Most problems can be solved by lower ranks working in small groups. It is not like a military where two companies of a battalion have to be on line with a third ready to follow on a few minutes notice. The Executive officer will most often be leading a small squad, instead of a full company, much less battalion. Further, a TSAB commander does have a few advantages. Several Earth militaries also have battalion commanders come out to fight (the Soviets, and IIRC the Americans) and certainly all militaries have their company commanders fight. A Earth CO on the front is as vulnerable as his subordinates, while a TSAB CO would be much better protected and survivable. Units in the TSAB really revolve around their front-line CO. If you try to talk to a platoon leader and he doesn't respond, you don't need to talk to his platoon again because it is either dead or will be finished off in the next minute by the enemy. He also doesn't have to play around with the complex process of calling in artillery - the front line CO is already the unit's artillery. Quote:
|
||||
2007-09-02, 13:03 | Link #69 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
|
I overlooked this thread somehow. I think I must have read it as "military authority in Nanoha" The outlook has changed a lot since mid-July. I miss the old Hayate from when she used to be competent
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It makes sense to keep the unit small if the commander needs to play such a large role in the fighting. The mages will all need to have similar mobility or the unit will need enough organic air transport to avoid RF6's mobility problems. Is the battalion (company-strength) the basic maneuver unit of the TSAB or is it the battalion sub-unit (platoon-strength)? The TSAB itself seems to consider the individual to be the basic maneuver unit, capable of operating independently and supporting itself for extended periods If they want their battalions to operate independently, then they mages for some of the support tasks like reconnaissance and MP duties. They can either be organic or attached but they need to be there. All of this leaves the TSAB with extremely small battalions with teeth to tail ratios typical of at least a divisional or maybe even a corps-sized unit. I don't think we'd ever see an actual TSAB division without even more logic-defying powers. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-02 at 13:59. |
||||||||
2007-09-02, 17:49 | Link #70 | ||||||||
This is mah flash sword.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: CA
|
Quote:
9- They use 'barrier' for all types of field effects. Fate had asked Arf for a 'spatial barrier' a term that could be very general or very specific, we don't know. But at any rate capture/prison barriers are those shown to be effective against teleport in A's. Quote:
Quote:
Hey, actually... the Arthra teleported Arisa and Suzuka out of the barrier, even though it was the same type as Vita's. Plothole! Quote:
Shamal's device's alternate form (the pendulum/portal) is dedicated to scanning operations. It was she, not the scanning tech and officers on the Arthra, that provided the teleport lock on the Defense Program's core. And again, in terms of experience, there's no way a room full of 20somethings can come close to her. It's absurd to think she's 'more specialized' than a single-function conventional-tech suite, but that doesn't mean she isn't better. But the real point is Quattro's specialization, which is against electronic systems. The conventional-tech scanners are something she's used to fooling, Shamal's magic is something she might have a passing familiarity with through Lutecia but that she's almost certainly never had to work against before. Quote:
Quote:
And of course, all this assumes that all uses of magical energy are equal. The spatial distortion created by diabolic emission, for example, might have effect against most magical defenses out of proportion with the input energy needed to create it. Quote:
Quote:
Descriptions specifically state that Wingblade and Boomerang are their best aerial combatants. Twinblades and Raystorm are competent but they aren't in the same league. I don't see how success against two AA support casters fighting with all sorts of handicaps makes them a match for an S+ aerial combat specialist. And for nitpicking's sake, Raystorm was already onscene and fighting when they cut to Shamal and Zafira's defeat- it wasn't one blow each. And I still think the numbers would take casualties before they even made it into close combat. Signum has her bow, Fate has her weather control, Nanoha's a beam sniper and Hayate is basically a strategic missile sub. The only significant cover the numbers are going to get is going to come from raystorm, who we already know Shamal can neutralize one-to-one. ((You just moved this here and now the topic is changing into something more appropriate to the magic and tech thread. Sorry about this -_-.)) |
||||||||
2007-09-02, 19:33 | Link #73 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
|
Quote:
My first thought, in regards to close combat, is that the Strikers Hayate would simply disengage. It would take her out of the fight but would be the most "efficient" thing to do. She seems to have some kind of magical power that allows her to completely disappear at critical moments.
__________________
|
|
2007-09-02, 20:11 | Link #74 |
This is mah flash sword.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: CA
|
Yeah, the argument kind of fell apart into a bunch of nitpicking because I didn't like ark's example battle.
He thinks that it's indefensible for someone with Hayate's magic potential to never learn how to defend herself in a one-on-one confrontation and has been arguing that Nanohaverse combat is sufficiently fluid that she can't count on the Wolkenritter to protect her. I've been arguing that high-ranking TSAB mages aren't expected to fight and her choice to pursue her career to the exclusion of personal magical power is sensible for someone with her goals. Basically I'm an apologist at heart and need to find logical reasons for everything to be the way it is (combat teleportation is rare- must be easily blocked, Hayate never learned good combat skills- must be hard enough for her that it would have impinged on her career-building goals), while he, like the majority of this thread, is fine with just saying the writers made the characters stupid and leaving it at that. |
2007-09-02, 21:10 | Link #75 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
|
Quote:
I posted this before regarding force structure. I think it is relevant to the discussion. The writers were already expecting Hayate to perform to many functions for RF6 and the retconn with regards to close combat skills make those expectations even more unreasonable. Quote:
Worse still, while she is capable of flying, she can't personally direct the main effort or make personal observations without having escorts that RF6 can't afford to detach. In Episodes 17 and 21 RF6 is unable to mass decisive combat power anywhere. Any mages that are used to escort Hayate make it that much less likely that they'll be able to mass that decisive combat power unless Hayate herself is able to fight. Unfortunately, Hayate's lack of close combat skills rob her of her tactical mobility and her ability to command properly. Instead of reconciling any of those demands, the writers have pretty much chosen to ignore her which makes the efforts she made to be a commander all the more disappointing. Is it reasonable for Hayate not to work on her close combat skills? Maybe. Does it cost the RF6 combat power from both ends? Definitely. Can RF6 afford to lose that combat power? Episodes 17-22 and military logic say no. Episodes 23-26 and the writers say yes.
__________________
Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-02 at 21:48. |
||
2007-09-03, 00:58 | Link #76 | |||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
Fate was there first so her barrier would be up.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If Raystorm and Twinblades merely won that's one thing. But they were doing basically one-turn kills (at most 2). Quote:
Quote:
Actually, they'd also have 7 for coverage. Remember her first attack on Fate. It was actually a near BVR shot - Fate did not see them, only the flash from the shot warned her (or was that the bullet closing?) The fact that sensors don't seem too good at detecting Numbers unless they are powering up S class attacks along with the fact that they have visual magnification and infra-red vision suggests that in truth, first contact and thus first shot could easily go to the Numbers - you won't shoot at targets you don't even see. If you went by capabilities and made a perfect plan your scenario will come to pass. But then, as I agreed from the beginning, the Numbers were on the bad side of the coefficient and numbers, so if the Aces played their cards perfectly, in theory you are right - they could stop them from reaching Hayate. However, that has little to do with the real way these characters play their cards. If Signum is your type, she'd have sniped Zest in the back with Storm Falcon, not tried to engage in melee and wind up ruining Laevantein's scabbard (so much for Bow Form, I guess). Quote:
|
|||||||||||||||
2007-09-03, 01:53 | Link #77 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
|
Quote:
(If it does, then it seems to me that a self-releasable limiter would be remarkably useful as a covert-ops stealth tool.) Quote:
Spoiler for ep. 23:
|
||
2007-09-03, 02:19 | Link #78 | |
~Night of Gales~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
And AMF is not shown to be so powerful that it can nerf an S+ to around AA rank. It only tires them, and makes magic fusion and concentration harder, but not really 'weaken' them in the literal sense. It's a disadvantage to them, but it's not that powerful to those used to them.
__________________
|
|
2007-09-03, 03:31 | Link #79 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
|
Quote:
Vita/Zest certainly lasted longer than you'd expect if Vita was restricted and Zest wasn't, but both Rein and Agito made a point of commenting that Vita/Rein worked together better than Agito/Zest, which might have dragged out the duel a bit. When Zest finally cut loose, though, he alone was enough to thoroughly pound both Vita and Rein... whereas later, Zest and Agito combined don't produce anywhere near the same effect on Signum and Rein. (I'd normally put that down to Signum being a lot tougher than Vita, except that Signum's S- isn't all that different to Vita's AAA+... what is a "minus" rank, anyway? The way everybody's been talking, "+" represents a half-rank, so what's "-"? Is Signum AAA and three-quarters?) Quote:
We also know that AMFs have differing power levels; it's possible that a higher-level field could be used inside a base compared to that generated by the average Gadget Drone, considering the base's greater power output and lack of space constraints. |
||
2007-09-03, 04:06 | Link #80 | ||||||||||||
This is mah flash sword.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: CA
|
Unless I missed something, the only barrier that went up was the one Yuuno used for the transfer. They don't need a barrier to do the sealing; Nanoha did her first few without any.
Quote:
Quote:
Recall that Precia, who had an interdimensional asteroid base that made RF6's HQ look pretty dinky and a legion of mecha guardians, considered the expense and difficulty of acquiring Bardiche extreme. High-end devices are a highly refined artisan-craft technology (look at how much effort goes into their maintenance!), not a PDA. And they have that mage. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
4v4 is more difficult to predict since the numbers are specialists and you'd expect group combat to help make up for their deficiencies as such, but I don't think it's going to make that big a difference. It isn't like Nanoha/Fate and Signum/Vita aren't used to fighting together and covering each other. And Nanoha and Vita are tactics instructors. They aren't total rubes. Quote:
Quote:
2) It's still canon that raystorm and twinblades are inferior to wingblades and boomerangs as aerial combatants. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also as far as I'm concerned that Signum/Zest battle never happened. Ever. She never caught up with him. |
||||||||||||
Thread Tools | |
|
|