Fate/Zero - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by Thess

"Shallow crush"? There you go again with baseless assumptions. Kayneth notices is not something superficial at all (if you read his observations). THIS is why it bothers him. Not because she's crushing on a handsome man, but because she has truly fallen in love. Just like Gráinne, she's staking her life and comfortable position for the sake of love. That was the point of the resemblance in their pleading eyes.

Sola's feelings for Lancer are as genuine as Kayneth's for hers. The three of them are completely dysfunctional with each others. Sola emotionally hurts Kayneth who wounds Lancer who wounds Sola. Yet somehow you qualify her motivations as "shallow crush". Like I said before, the whole twisting him only psychologically wound him, there was no physical pain at all. The whole scene was to portray how horrifyingly unrequited everyone's feelings were. *shrugs*

Again with the assumptions. There's no indication that Sola's love was genuine.

see your quote:

The thing is, those reasons were kind of dimmed when came to the emotional ones. Most of these traditional Magi are sorta inept with their feelings.

Sola was smitten with Lancer easily due to this nature and her indifference towards Kayneth. Thus most likely willingly letting herself be affected by the curse, twisting her infatuations into a facade of love.
There was no genuine development of love.

And not to mention, the legend stated that Gráinne was affected by the curse. And tricked Diarmuid into accepting a geis (swearing to protect her), then forcing his hands by creating a situation that would make him take her away.

Thus you can't really say the love was genuine when it was mostly the result of the curse.

[Leo_Otaku]

Really solid episode! I too would have loved to have seen that child furniture, reminds me of something Umineko might have. I would love to see a set of OVA's that were just the servant stories!I just read about Lancer real past . Well he has 5 kids apparently XD.

I wish to see more Gilgamesh...

OT Triple_R awesome sig btw!

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Randomzx

Again with the assumptions. There's no indication that Sola's love was genuine.

Uh, replying this would be spoilers...

Originally Posted by Randomzx

Sola was smitten with Lancer easily due to this nature and her indifference towards Kayneth. Thus most likely willingly letting herself be affected by the curse, twisting her infatuations into a facade of love.
There was no genuine development of love.

That's your interpretation.

Originally Posted by Randomzx

And not to mention, the legend stated that Gráinne was affected by the curse. And tricked Diarmuid into accepting a geis (swearing to protect her), then forcing his hands by creating a situation that would make him take her away.

Thus you can't really say the love was genuine when it was mostly the result of the curse.

Lancer believes is the face. But Kayneth thinks her feelings are deeper.

Whatever is the cause, she is in love with him.

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by Thess

Lancer believes is the face. But Kayneth thinks her feelings are deeper.

Whatever is the cause, she is in love with him.

No, that was just your assumption. Kayneth was becoming more convinced that Sola was letting the curse affect her. He suspect that it was her infatuation that led to that.

If she was merely fascinated by a handsome man, then that is still excusable. It is just a small,
problematic indisposition a woman has. Her admiration towards man to that extent was
something which he, as her husband, could not help with.
Yet, Lancer was said to be a case of “not just an ordinary handsome guy”.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Never read the novels, but if there are 4 volumes and the 9th episode (out of 24) is close to the end of the second volume, sounds about right

It sounds like excellent pacing to me. We should be thankful that the novels were finished before they were adapted and, most of all, for ufotable doing such a great job.

God I wish they do Tsukihime next.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Randomzx

No, that was just your assumption. Kayneth was becoming more convinced that Sola was letting the curse affect her. He suspect that it was her infatuation that led to that.

Nothing there really speaks of that, though. He's saying it's not mere admiration about a guy's looks. And the thing he tells Sola is that he's (Lancer) not a "wonderful" man as she thinks he is.

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by Thess

Nothing there really speaks of that, though. He's saying it's not mere admiration about a guy's looks. And the thing he tells Sola is that he's (Lancer) not a "wonderful" man as she thinks he is.

'Yet, Lancer was said to be a case of “not just an ordinary handsome guy”.'

Pretty sure, that was referring to Lancer's curse.

[fedor mma]

Originally Posted by Key Board

As I've said.. magic resistance has nothing to do with this. She let herself be swayed by his charms. I'm not just talking about his pretty face. He's very suave about his conduct, and it appeals to her. It's not about magic.. it's about chemistry, baby.

But yes, the attachment are obviously hers, and as you said she does have attachments.

And she obviously has insecurity problem when it comes to Kiritsugu. Observe

"I Kiritsugu unsatisfied because I am a woman?"
"Do you have so little faith in my abilities as a Servant?"

..

Firstly, Knights do not consider an advantage of weaponry and tactics as cheating, if they did they wouldn't go into battle clad in pull plate, on trained warhorses, with 9 foot long lances and supported by heck load of archers and pikemen against their enemies, who sometimes are far less equipped than them. War is war and honour takes other forms.
Secondly, she is honoring his word because of honour and respect, and while she does like him, the main point of their deal is knights honour and all that jazz. If you are saying she is insecure because people dont acknowledge her battle prowess, in life she had a dozen of the bravest, strongest, dashing and most gallant warriors in the land worshiping the ground she walked on, perhaps you've heard of them, they're called the knights of the round table.

[Marik]

I bet that Sola will use the command spell to make Lancer to have sex with her lol

[king12354]

The scene where Sola forces Kayneth to hand over his command spells would've had more impact if I wasn't thinking the whole time why Kayneth isn't calling Lancer out using a command spell or something.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Randomzx

'Yet, Lancer was said to be a case of “not just an ordinary handsome guy”.'

Pretty sure, that was referring to Lancer's curse.

Or because, you know, he's not an ordinary guy at all? He's a dead knight from ancient times...

[jonli]

I'm surprised this Sola, Kayneth and Lancer love triangle sparked such a lively discussion. If I read the novels I'd probably feel a lot more for Sola and sympathize with her.

[Alaya]

Well, magi in Nasuverse cannot really be comprehended by a normal people moral code, as they live in a separate society. Most of magi doing would be judged as evil by our moral code.

The prime example would be "Hunting Caster" case, the only reason the Masters are willing to go after him is because of the reward provides by the Risei. Heck, even that has becomes a tool for for their own gain too. And the reason the Church care in the first place is because Caster risks exposing the magical world to the normal people, or else they would not mind him killing one or two children in secrecy.

Magi's world is a really harsh world. A world where a father would sacrifice a daughter, where a magus would implant a girl with worms in order to make her become his tool. What magi only care are their research, strengthen their lineage and reaching the Root.

[Haak]

Imo, cultural differences is an excuse that can only go so far, though.

[giorno]

Originally Posted by Randomzx

No, that was just your assumption. Kayneth was becoming more convinced that Sola was letting the curse affect her. He suspect that it was her infatuation that led to that.

you are missing the point: it doesn't matter whether she fell for him by herself or if she was only infatuated and the curse kicked in, what matters is that she is genuinely in love with him. So much so that she would do anything, really, to be with him. It's not a facade of love of some sorts like you said, and it's not a shallow crush

Aren't you using double-standard within one post? In the first quote you defend her with her status as magi. In the second you defend her with her status as normal loving woman.

in the second part, i was paraphrasing what the poster said to highlight how his reasoning was skewed, while in the first i was pointing out how from the POV of the characters in question, what was happening was nothing strange or unexpected

i wasn't expressing my opinion(which btw, i think from a human viewpoint, they are both understandable, though not quite justified[Sola is more excusable than kayneth though]. From a magi viewpoint, Sola is doing what's normal of a person in her situation, and Kayneth is being an unreasonable moron)

At best you can say Sola's actions are reasonable from her point of view

it is part of what i am saying

but being reasonable alone does not make her actions justified

being reasonable doesn't make ones actions justified, normally. In this specific situation? Yes it does. It is in the best interests(AKA, trying to win/survive the war) of everyone involved that Kayneth gives up the command spells and leave the HGW while Sola takes his place as Lancer's master

[Geburah]

Originally Posted by Alaya

Well, magi in Nasuverse cannot really be comprehended by a normal people moral code, as they live in a separate society. Most of magi doing would be judged as evil by our moral code.

The prime example would be "Hunting Caster" case, the only reason the Masters are willing to go after him is because of the reward provides by the Risei. Heck, even that has becomes a tool for for their own gain too. And the reason the Church care in the first place is because Caster risks exposing the magical world to the normal people, or else they would not mind him killing one or two children in secrecy.

Magi's world is a really harsh world. A world where a father would sacrifice a daughter, where a magus would implant a girl with worms in order to make her become his tool. What magi only care are their research, strengthen their lineage and reaching the Root.

To be frank thats not different from many countries letting thousands of people to die because they dont want to involve themselves on others wars.

And not to defend Tokiomi, but Matou offer was a great one in appearance. Second children are just marriage fodder to strenghten another family, yet Sakura would be the next generation Matou and would be able to pursue magecraft the same as Rin. No one expected (outside Matou family) that Zouken only wanted her as a genetic pool and a tool to his purposes.

Most mages do care about their research such as many scientist care about their own. It condenses all the work of your life AND your ancestors, of course they care. They have rules different from normal people but dont they behave "evilish" more usual than a normal evil person in society

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by Thess

Or because, you know, he's not an ordinary guy at all? He's a dead knight from ancient times...

Except that doesn't fit with that line of thought in that passage. Diarmuid's love spot in the legend was pretty much the MAIN thing associated with him.

Originally Posted by giorno

you are missing the point: it doesn't matter whether she fell for him by herself or if she was only infatuated and the curse kicked in, what matters is that she is genuinely in love with him. So much so that she would do anything, really, to be with him. It's not a facade of love of some sorts like you said, and it's not a shallow crush

You failed to explain how the hell it would be genuine love when it is FORCED by magic, especially when that magic is considered a CURSE type. Just because Sola became obsessed, doesn't mean the love is true.

Originally Posted by giorno

i wasn't expressing my opinion(which btw, i think from a human viewpoint, they are both understandable, though not quite justified[Sola is more excusable than kayneth though]. From a magi viewpoint, Sola is doing what's normal of a person in her situation, and Kayneth is being an unreasonable moron)

I don't think you really understand the magi point of view. No magi are ever willing to give up their magic. They are fully willing to kill to gain or keep their magic from other magi (Most mage family don't share most of their research with any outsiders). Its the reason the Mage Association doesn't care about the morals of using magic as much as about keeping magic a secret (part of the reason was that the more magic is spreaded, the less power is available for each mage). And it is the reason the Mage Association assigns sealing designation, and why no magi are able to accept that designation.

Kayneth doesn't wants to give up his command spell when that's all he had left as a Mage. Sure it would be nice if Sola was really willing to use the grail to heal him. But after a long series of suspicion of Lancer and Sola, Kayneth can no longer believe that's what Sola would really do (breaking his finger is not going to make Sola's argument any more convincing).
He refused to believe that all Lancer wanted was for a chance to fulfill his obligation as a knight. If Sola was willing to do everything to have Lancer, no doubt he would expect some conspiracy from either of them.

Being magi doesn't mean act in magi behavior, there's no such thing. All it means they are not constraint by morals to reach their goals.

in summary, Regardless of how reasonable Sola sounds, it won't mean a thing if Kayneth doesn't believe her. if his suspicion was right, all giving up the command spell would do is make him a chump.

[Randomzx]

*mod please this this post, its was a double post*

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by Randomzx

You failed to explain how the hell it would be genuine love when it is FORCED by magic, especially when that magic is considered a CURSE type. Just because Sola became obsessed, doesn't mean the love is true.

I think what he means is that the result the same thing. The end result is that Sola loves Lancer with a passion. This is Kiritsugu's line of thinking: only the ends matter, not the means. There is no such thing as "true" love-the end result is that Sola is infatuated with Lancer. It does not matter anymore if it was by her own will or some curse, because the result is the obsession you see now. There is no fine line separating them as there would be in a more idealistic series.

Fate/Zero, grimdark, grimdark~<3

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by Geburah

To be frank thats not different from many countries letting thousands of people to die because they dont want to involve themselves on others wars.

I agree with that but if you look from a common people's perspective, it still quite ugly.

And not to defend Tokiomi, but Matou offer was a great one in appearance. Second children are just marriage fodder to strenghten another family, yet Sakura would be the next generation Matou and would be able to pursue magecraft the same as Rin. No one expected (outside Matou family) that Zouken only wanted her as a genetic pool and a tool to his purposes.

That's is why I said we can't judge magi using our moral code. That's is one of the most sensible thing Tokiomi could do (although he might or might not know about what Zouken would do to Sakura). But from normal people's view, you don't give away your daughter because of the reason like "she is the second child so she will not succeed the family. We should just give her away".

Most mages do care about their research such as many scientist care about their own. It condenses all the work of your life AND your ancestors, of course they care. They have rules different from normal people but dont they behave "evilish" more usual than a normal evil person in society

Hey, I'm a scientist! I do care about my research but I would not harm other because of I want to complete my project :P. Most magi, however, don't think like that. The Grail war is the best example.

And another thing is that Magi have more potential to cause more damages if they are evil and there researches are dangerous :P