Fate/Zero - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Ithekro]

I'd rather see an non-Berserker Lancelot. He's pretty good as his is now (stronger with the Mad Enchant) but if he was clear headed and tactical?

From his sword I'd think he'd probably be a Saber...but given his name....a Lancer....with the luck that goes with it.

[ApathyEcstasy]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I'd rather see an non-Berserker Lancelot. He's pretty good as his is now (stronger with the Mad Enchant) but if he was clear headed and tactical?

From his sword I'd think he'd probably be a Saber...but given his name....a Lancer....with the luck that goes with it.

I'd be happy with him as either a Saber or a Lancer. And with Kiritsugu as his master. He'd probably make a better Saber, since it appears that his original weapon is a sword.

[Doria]

Can someone familiar with the games explain the correlation between Mad Enhancement and the Berserker class? My assumption is that ME is a modifier that could be added to any class, but I don't know as that I've seen it applied except to the Berserker class (I believe that was also the case in FSN?).

Additionally, I take it from FSN, that it does not imply anything about the sanity of the Master? It's just an added synchronicity in this particular Grail War, given the Matou family magic?

Sorry for my ignorance if this is all really obvious. I've read the FZ novels and watched the FSN anime, but it wasn't 100% clear from those two (to me at least). Any clarification is appreciated. Thanks!

[GDB]

1) Berserker class only
2) Correct

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

You misunderstood. Essentially all I am saying is F--- Gilgamesh. I want to see Lancelot actually have a good master as he takes on Gilgamesh. Now THAT would be a fight to see. That whole spaceship vs fighter jet thing was stupid. I imagine that if Gilgamesh tried to use Enuma Elish on Lancelot, he would just gain control of it and turn it around on Gil.

Against serious Gil? Still going to end up as a curbstomp.

[ApathyEcstasy]

Originally Posted by MartianMage

Against serious Gil? Still going to end up as a curbstomp.

If you believe that, then all the more reason to hate Gil. Near-omnipotent characters are f-ing YAAAAAAAAAAWN. It completely eliminates any excitement or tension.

[mAc Chaos]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

If you believe that, then all the more reason to hate Gil. Near-omnipotent characters are f-ing YAAAAAAAAAAWN. Serious Nasu-fail.

Just think of him as a backdrop to make the other character's look awesome. That's why he's there.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

If you believe that, then all the more reason to hate Gil. Near-omnipotent characters are f-ing YAAAAAAAAAAWN. It completely eliminates any excitement or tension.

But he rarely goes serious. Rider's unlucky that he's so great that even the king of heroes acknowledged him.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

TL;DR Arthur and Gilgamesh are the least interesting of all the servants in both F/SN and F/Z.

All the other servants and masters deserve far more screen time and character development.

I hear that a lot but I've never been able to understand why people think that Saber is uninteresting.

[ApathyEcstasy]

Originally Posted by Ragna92

That's your opinion though. I find Gil to be the most interesting along with Iskandar. And it's not like Gil is near omnipotent. It's not like he can destroy galaxies.

He doesn't need to destroy galaxies in order to have a cakewalk with the holy grail war. That's the whole point. A character that has the power to make the holy grail war a cakewalk is just f-ing stupid. It trivializes the very contest that we are supposed to be invested in watching.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

Tangentially, I think the whole "he loses in F/SN because of his own arrogance and pride" kind of explanation is nothing more than bad writing. It gives the wow factor of a near-omnipotent villain along with the attempt to explain away how a far-from-omnipotent protagonist can defeat him. It's like trying to have your cake and eat it too. It's just bad writing.

TL;DR Arthur and Gilgamesh are the least interesting of all the servants in both F/SN and F/Z.

All the other servants and masters deserve far more screen time and character development.

I said it in other forum threads, Nasu's writing of kings in FSN was appalling sometimes. He improved a lot with Extra Saber. In F/Z, you can easily picture Saber and Gilgamesh as regal figures.

About his losses, people don't take into account the main character dies more time than he survives.

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

I hear that a lot but I've never been able to understand why people think that Saber is uninteresting.

The problem with Saber is that she's a lot more interesting in text than in screen. It's the same with Kiritsugu, Kariya or Kirei. There a lot of internal processes we miss because they aren't loud characters.

[ApathyEcstasy]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

I hear that a lot but I've never been able to understand why people think that Saber is uninteresting.

Read more novels and you'll eventually see examples of well-developed characters. The problem with Saber is that she is very "flat" and "2-D", in a manner of speaking.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

Read more novels and you'll eventually see examples of well-developed characters. The problem with Saber is that she is very "flat" and "2-D", in a manner of speaking.

I've read quite a few novels, thank you. How is Saber 2D?

Originally Posted by Thess

The problem with Saber is that she's a lot more interesting in text than in screen. It's the same with Kiritsugu, Kariya or Kirei. There a lot of internal processes we miss because they aren't loud characters.

That makes sense. I was beginning to think that it had to do with the disdain that many people have for "Lawful Good" characters and their tendency to root for villains. Something about them being unrelatable.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

That makes sense. I was beginning to think that it had to do with the disdain that many people have for "Lawful Good" characters and their tendency to root for villains. Something about them being unrelatable.

Rider is good (essentially he's Neutral Good). I think the majority was rooting for him because Charisma A transcends the four wall. But he got what he really wanted.

May I express dissatisfaction with some bits of this episode (that I liked overall)?

1. It was never clear what was the meaning of Oceanus. How did he find it. You know the drill...
2. It's not clear that Waver-Rider aren't truly separated (unless they intent to address this in the last episode?).
3. Waver's sobs in the end? What? In the novels he sheds manly tears down the river which aren't of loneliness or regret.
4. Rider was skewered with Noble Phantasms. He laughed off the pain and kept going. Here they all magically miss him except for two? It takes a lot of the weight of his courage.

[mAc Chaos]

I think the Berserker half of the episode is what was more lacking for most people since nobody probably knew what was going on, if they weren't aware of the details of how it all went down.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

I think the Berserker half of the episode is what was more lacking for most people since nobody probably knew what was going on, if they weren't aware of the details of how it all went down.

That too. I'm focusing on the Rider-Waver issues since they were the focus of this episode.

The pacing of the second season is really bad sometimes. I hope (in vain?) they'll fix it in the bluray.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by Thess

Rider is good (essentially he's Neutral Good). I think the majority was rooting for him because Charisma A transcends the four wall. But he got what he really wanted.

May I express dissatisfaction with some bits of this episode (that I liked overall)?

1. It was never clear what was the meaning of Oceanus. How did he find it. You know the drill...
2. It's not clear that Waver-Rider aren't truly separated (unless they intent to address this in the last episode?).
3. Waver's sobs in the end? What? In the novels he sheds manly tears down the river which aren't of loneliness or regret.
4. Rider was skewered with Noble Phantasms. He laughed off the pain and kept going. Here they all magically miss him except for two? It takes a lot of the weight of his courage.

@ #4 That was one of my problems with this episode. I was like wth is going on every NP is missing. And then I read the scene in the LN and it said that Rider was skewered with NPS but he still continued to charge. I hope they fix it in the BDs.

[mAc Chaos]

I just figured Gilgamesh didn't care. He just carpet bombed the area until Rider got hit.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Ragna92

@ #4 That was one of my problems with this episode. I was like wth is going on every NP is missing. And then I read the scene in the LN and it said that Rider was skewered with NPS but he still continued to charge. I hope they fix it in the BDs.

His jogging was unintentionally hilarious like Kotomine's. It almost killed the solemn mood of the scene.

Going to post it in case people want to read it. Because it was really beautiful (but clearly difficult to portray):

Spoiler for Fate/Zero Novel Rider's charge:

"Now, Bucephalus, to conquest!"
And so, the King of Conquerors kicked the flanks of his beloved horse, and went off to face his last sprint. Aiming for the bitter enemy waiting for him, he let out a screaming war cry.
He was a strategist. He acknowledged fully the indisputable flow of battle. But 'that' was different from 'this'. The King of Conquerors Alexander could not think of any other prescription other than charging toward the golden Heroic Spirit.
There was no resignation. There was no despair. What was there was only the utter excitement bursting full from his heart.
Strong - he was too strong. The hero who tore apart the world itself was undoubtedly the strongest enemy in Heaven and Earth.
In that case, this man was the last enemy.
He was higher than the peak of the Hindu Kush, hotter than the hot sands of the Mackran - he was the last obstacle in this world. And so, how could the King of Conquerors not challenge it? If he can surpass this, what lay beyond was surely the ends of the world. The faraway dream he had always been seeing was waiting to be fulfilled right now, before his eyes.
"To Philotimo" - he challenged it because it was unreachable; he expressed his conquest, exemplified it, for the sake of the servant who watched over his back.
The King of Heroes, towering over his path, calmly gazed at the challenger, and released the treasures of the vault. Twenty, forty, eighty - a swarm of Noble Phantasms deployed from thin air, shining like so many glittering stars. That light made the King of Conquerors reminiscent of the starry sky of the East far off in the distance that he would look up to.
"AAAALaLaLaLaie!!"
Bellowing with a delight that shook his heart, he rushed on together with his beloved horse.
With haughty growls, the rain of stars approached. Incessantly, mercilessly, the impacts trampled over their bodies. However, that pain was nothing more than a worthless trifle compared to the excitement of this sprint.
There were times when he had succumbed to that sort of faint-heartedness - and yet was not about to reach 'the furthest end'. How foolish. What a disgrace.
The 'end' he had been seeking was now towering over his path. Having crossed countless hills, forded countless rivers, he finally discovered the ending point.
Thus, he would surpass it.
He would step across that enemy.
One step, and one step further. The only thing he had to do was simply repeat that. If he continued to accumulate it, then even that figure far in the distance would most surely be reached by his blade.
The swarm of stars poured on boisterously. In his fury where even his consciousness was prone to recede, his posture inadvertently and carelessly began to decline.
Then he realized that, at some point, he had started running on his own feet. How far did his beloved horse Bucephalus reach? Where did he end? He wanted to mourn for his friend, who had boldly carried out his duty to the end, but that was why he could not stop now. This step he would now take forward was in itself the mourning for those who were scattered.
His golden rival, as though understanding this, said something with an expression of amazement. But he could not hear him. Not even the flashes of light grazing past his ears, with the sounds of violent winds, could reach his ears.
What he heard, was simply - the sound of the waves.
The sound of the waves breaking onto the remote empty shores - of the sea at the world's end.
Aah, that was it. With a bright feeling, he understood it.
How had he not recognized it during all this time? - This violent throbbing of his heart was the roaring of Oceanus.
"Hahah... AHAHAHAHA!"
He saw his dream as he ran on the beach. The sensation of the sprays he kicked up felt pleasant on his toes. The bright red soaking his feet might be the blood flowing from his own abdomen, but what of it? Right now, he was watching a dream of the sea. How could there be any greater bliss?
The King of Heroes awaited him, right before his very eyes. One more step - and then, just one more, and his sword, brandished high, could cleave apart the crown of his head.
"Haaaah - !!"
With a ringing victory cry that reached the Heavens, he swung down the sword of the Cypriots.
It was the peak of a moment when he was convinced of his victory. The instant that should have passed in the blink of an eye seemed, for some reason, to stretch into an eternity. It was as though time stood still -
No. In truth, it did stop - not the flow of time, but his own body.
Just before the swung sword could reach, his blade, his limbs, his shoulders, and his abdomen were wrapped around by a tough chain; the King of Conquerors sighed.
Enkidu - the secret among secrets contained in the King of Heroes' vault. The restraint that captured even the Bull of Heaven.
" - Good grief... All these oddities, one after another..."
There was no wonder or regret. He simply derided himself for finally tripping over a small careless mistake. A bitter smile rose from his bloodstained lips.
The sword of the Cypriots could not reach him; however, Gilgamesh's Sword of Rupture pierced through Alexander's chest with its dull tip. He could feel the sensation of the slowly grinding blade inside his vitals. This sword just becomes more and more absurd - the King of Conquerors felt amazement as well as admiration, as though this was the affair of another.
" - Have you awoken from your dream, King of Conquerors?"
"... Hm, yes. I suppose..."
It could not be carried out this time, either. It had ended with the unfulfilled dream remaining as it was - unfulfilled. However, now that he thought about it, that was a one-time dream he had wagered his life for in the past.
The fantastic dream he saw in Asia Minor in the remote past - now, in this Far East land, he was once again seeing the same dream.
Thinking nostalgically on such checkered circumstances, Alexander smiled.
If he could see the same dream for even a second time, then it would not be strange to have a third.
Which would mean -
It was nearly the right time to see the next dream.
"This expedition has, been... exciting, in all respects as well..."
Alexander murmured in satisfaction, narrowing the corners of his eyes which were blurred by a blood haze. Ascertaining his expression of rapture, Gilgamesh solemnly nodded.
"You may challenge it however many times you wish, King of Conquerors."
To his worthy opponent, whose entire body was skewered from head to toe by the rain of Noble Phantasms, yet who did not stop until thwarted by the Chain of Heaven, the King of Heroes gave his greatest reward - he honored him with true feelings of admiration.
"Until the end of time, this world will always be my garden. Thus, I can assure you. You shall never find this world tiresome."
"Ooh...? That's, good to, hear..."
In the end, carelessly giving out the appropriate response, Servant Rider was quietly extinguished.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by ApathyEcstasy

If you believe that, then all the more reason to hate Gil. Near-omnipotent characters are f-ing YAAAAAAAAAAWN. It completely eliminates any excitement or tension.

Gilgamesh is indeed the strongest charcater in FSN but in the nasuverse and against an Arcueid with her full capacity, Gil will probably lose.