[Manga] Chapter 514 Discussion

[King Lycan]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Why would Madara want weaksauce byakugan?

It'll probably be some fourth eye that'll be even more powerfuler than the Sharingan and Rinnegan combined.

Byakugan could possibly be his third eye

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by King Lycan

Byakugan could possibly be his third eye

It probably also lies in the value of the eye: Byakagun must have came from Rinnegan just as the Sharingan came from Rinnegan.

Byakagun: Stops people from sneaking up behind him (even Naruto planning something).
Mangekyou Sharingan: time-space ability.
Rinnegan: Mastery of all jutsu.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

Actually, one could argue that the only true weakness of the Sharingan lies in its limited range of vision. ie the user will always have a huge blind spot. Rinnegan will probably help in this regard, if Madara uses the Paths of Pain, but if he doesn't, then the Byakugan might have been a better doujutsu for him. He probably could have seen Anko sneaking up on the hideout with it.

Oh sure, nevermind the fact that he can create unstoppable black flames, create the ultimate defense Susanoo, and can become intangible, he just needs to be able to see what's coming up behind him. Oh, and wasn't he already aware that Anko had found his hideout?

Originally Posted by bhl88

Byakagun: Stops people from sneaking up behind him (even Naruto planning something).
Mangekyou Sharingan: time-space ability.
Rinnegan: Mastery of all jutsu.

On that note, when did the magical eyes stop having vision-based capabilities? Master of all jutsus? Space-time? Summoning a giant demon? Cheating death?

They may as well have a magical gall bladder. It would make just as much sense.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Oh sure, nevermind the fact that he can create unstoppable black flames, create the ultimate defense Susanoo, and can become intangible, he just needs to be able to see what's coming up behind him. Oh, and wasn't he already aware that Anko had found his hideout?

Wow, way to read my words and just take whatever the heck you want from them. Did I say that the Sharingan was a lesser doujutsu? -> No. I said that between the Rinnegan and the Byakugan, the latter would have complemented his Sharingan better (considering what we know of the Rinnegan), especially if he isn't going to use the Six paths and the added field of vision that comes with them.

That said,

We've seen several jutsus have an effect on Susanoo. Acid Jutsu (Mizukage) and high levels of taijutsu (Raikage and Raiton armor). Especially Danzou with his wind jutsu who managed breaking through with a little bit of a suction boost. This only seems to setup the hype for Naruto's Rasen Shuriken, which should be able to deal quite a bit of damage to this 'ultimate defense' without having to get close.

Also, Madara's intangibility has limits and Konan was able to exploit those limits to her advantage to some degree. If she can do it, I have no doubt the story's hero can as well.

No, he is not aware that Kabuto purposely led Anko towards his hideout.

On that note, when did the magical eyes stop having vision-based capabilities? Master of all jutsus? Space-time? Summoning a giant demon? Cheating death?

They may as well have a magical gall bladder. It would make just as much sense.

The idea behind the Sharingan's eye powers are derived from Japanese mythology.

Pulling from the ancient Japanese myth of Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susanoo, where when Izanagi washed his face after escaping the underworld his right eye became Tsukuyomi, the Moon god.

To me, the Sharingan is the eye-power that has been best explained and its mythology probably resonate most among the Japanese, I don't think you're being very objective about it.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

On that note, when did the magical eyes stop having vision-based capabilities? Master of all jutsus? Space-time? Summoning a giant demon? Cheating death?

They may as well have a magical gall bladder. It would make just as much sense.

To expand off of Frenchie's post a little (and to potentially show why the Sharingan has been fully explained), Izanagi appears to be the source of all Sharingan/MS powers (much the same as in mythology). Izanagi has the power to make fantasy into reality: Susano'o, Tsukuyomi, and Amaterasu - all are techniques that seem to spring forth from nothingness. Sadly, since the Sharingan cannot adequately use the Izanagi, prolonged use of techniques derived from the Izanagi causes destruction of the eye (and the actual use of Izanagi will automatically destroy the eye).

That being said, who’s to say that Madara hasn't planted a Byakugan at the back of his head? Or the top of his head? The eye can see a full 359 degrees after all, so it's not like the eye has to be facing forward...

[9TailsOfDestruction]

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, who’s to say that Madara hasn't planted a Byakugan at the back of his head? Or the top of his head? The eye can see a full 359 degrees after all, so it's not like the eye has to be facing forward...

Wow never thought of that. If he ever gets that I'll poop my pants. Tobi will be godlike! I really wonder if he"s gonna be able to use shinra tensei or be like pein and now be able to control dead bodies with some chakra receiver. Yes we seen it done already but it might be done.

Oh yea one more thing, before I pass out from too excessive drinking. Wouldn't it be funny if 0rochibuto turns even more into a snake and not have hands lol. How will he be able to do hand seals lol

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

Wow, way to read my words and just take whatever the heck you want from them. Did I say that the Sharingan was a lesser doujutsu? -> No. I said that between the Rinnegan and the Byakugan, the latter would have complemented his Sharingan better (considering what we know of the Rinnegan), especially if he isn't going to use the Six paths and the added field of vision that comes with them.

Fine. But the thing is, in this world that now has intangibility, eyes that can turn fantasy into reality, and giant shield monsters, having 359 degree vision just seems really mundane to me. I really can't see how much more it would help Madara.

Also, I find it pretty pointless to try to analyze different techniques to determine which combination would be the best strategy since strategy hasn't existed in Naruto for a long time.

That said,

We've seen several jutsus have an effect on Susanoo. Acid Jutsu (Mizukage) and high levels of taijutsu (Raikage and Raiton armor). Especially Danzou with his wind jutsu who managed breaking through with a little bit of a suction boost. This only seems to setup the hype for Naruto's Rasen Shuriken, which should be able to deal quite a bit of damage to this 'ultimate defense' without having to get close.

Fine.

Also, Madara's intangibility has limits and Konan was able to exploit those limits to her advantage to some degree. If she can do it, I have no doubt the story's hero can as well.

Also fine. But they always seem to have some uber-hax jutsu to fake-out certain death, don't they?

No, he is not aware that Kabuto purposely led Anko towards his hideout.

Fine. I have absolutely no recollection of what became of that anyway.

The idea behind the Sharingan's eye powers are derived from Japanese mythology.

Still doesn't explain why it has to be eyeballs. Sounds like something Kishi just half-assed when he wanted to make some new uber techniques for Sasuke.

To me, the Sharingan is the eye-power that has been best explained and its mythology probably resonate most among the Japanese, I don't think you're being very objective about it.

Sharingan started out fine as a kekkei-genkai based on vision (being able to copy the jutsus you see). But then it all went to hell when Kishi made up a bunch of hax jutsus that weren't based on vision and had absolutely nothing to do with each other aside from Japanese mythos. I'm not saying Kishi can't use Japanese mythology, but he needs to use it in a way that makes sense.

Originally Posted by james0246

To expand off of Frenchie's post a little (and to potentially show why the Sharingan has been fully explained), Izanagi appears to be the source of all Sharingan/MS powers (much the same as in mythology). Izanagi has the power to make fantasy into reality: Susano'o, Tsukuyomi, and Amaterasu - all are techniques that seem to spring forth from nothingness. Sadly, since the Sharingan cannot adequately use the Izanagi, prolonged use of techniques derived from the Izanagi causes destruction of the eye (and the actual use of Izanagi will automatically destroy the eye).

Again, none of this explains why it has to be an eye. I mean, not that it makes much difference anyway since it may as well be anything else, but Kishi did have a vision thing going originally. But the whole sharingan history is convoluted as hell.

So originally there was the sage of six paths guy, and he made the Izanagi and/or Sharingan. After that he distributed the power to his children or his followers or something who were able to use the sharingan. So how the sharingan works is that you have the basic sharingan, which can copy people's jutsus just by looking at them (still not sure how that works). Then you have to evolve it until you have all three spiral circles to get the final sharingan, but then you have to evolve it even further into the REAL final sharingan by killing a loved one or some shit. After that you get a bunch of arbitrary power-ups based on Japanese mythos, including unstoppable black flames, trapping people in an illusion world, creating a giant buttfuck monster and then turning fantasy into reality. But don't use it too much, or else your vision will get messed up and your eyes will start to bleed or you'll go blind. However, you can avoid this by getting the REALLY REAL final sharingan by taking the eyes of your brother (assuming you even have a brother).

Dark Helmet: Everybody got that?

Please tell me if I left anything out. Oh, and pretty much every jutsu in this series seems to spring forth from nothingness. How do you explain shadow clones or people coughing up rivers of water?

That being said, who’s to say that Madara hasn't planted a Byakugan at the back of his head? Or the top of his head? The eye can see a full 359 degrees after all, so it's not like the eye has to be facing forward...

Well, we've already seen Danzo with 10 sharingans in his arm. Next thing we'll get is Sharinipples.

[Frenchie]

Also, I find it pretty pointless to try to analyze different techniques to determine which combination would be the best strategy since strategy hasn't existed in Naruto for a long time.

Sasuke vs Deidara. Sasuke vs Itachi. Team Shikamaru vs Hidan/Kakuzu. Pain vs Naruto. I believe all those battles have displayed quite a decent amount of strategy. The strategies are what eventually forces the characters to go for their trump card, which in general is a supernatural ability. Even then, strategy isn't out the window, for you still have to decide what to do with your own trumpcards. When finally strategy goes out the window, like when Itachi revealed Susano'o or when Naruto had to Kyuubi to get his ass out of jail, the outcome of the fight is more or less decided.

I don't think this detracts from the enjoyment I get reading these fights.

Also fine. But they always seem to have some uber-hax jutsu to fake-out certain death, don't they?

Yeah, perhaps, but the difference between uber-hax jutsu and genjutsu battle (A la Itachi vs Sasuke) can be thin. Ie it may seem like the guy is dead or got an eye plucked out, but it was fake all along. Izanagi is very much like that, except it literally reverses reality, at the expense of the eye.

Meaning I don't really mind either way. These hax have been present from the very first few chapters of Naruto, where Kakashi seemed to have been killed by Sasuke during the bell test only for it to be revealed as a replacement technique and we never see the exchange or get a hint. Where did he get the huge log as replacement anyway?

Naruto's always relied on suspension of disbelief and that hasn't changed in part II.

Please tell me if I left anything out. Oh, and pretty much every jutsu in this series seems to spring forth from nothingness. How do you explain shadow clones or people coughing up rivers of water?

Actually, that has mostly been explained. Jutsus are usually separated between taijutsu, genjutsu and ninjutsu. Taijutsu is straightforward handcombat, genjutsu is the manipulation of one or more senses and ninjutsu has been further explained in part II, so here goes:

Ninjutsu (and genjutsu) require molding chakra (whatever type they are), which happens when you take both spiritual and physical energy and basically rub them in together. Molding quality also influences the quality of the jutsu. This is the basics of ninja warfare. (The tree-walking and water-walking exercises were reinforcing those basics)
I'm going to talk about ninjutsu, solely. It can be dissociated into two kinds: Yin Yang jutsus are most of the non-elemental jutsus you see. Jutsus such as Chouji's super size, Shikamaru's Kage mane, Ino's mind transfer and the Kage bunshin are Yin Yang recomposition jutsus. This is not an element. These are often Hijutsus, secret techniques guarded by clans. A Goukakyuu (Fireball) is a fire element jutsu. Ninjas often possess one or more affinities to elements and train elemental manipulation to create Elemental jutsu.

That's what gives birth to water and fire techniques where the users spit fire or water. Additionally, it's been said that you need to excel at water manipulation in order to use suiton jutsus with no water around to use. I expect that's more of the same for any other jutsu, it is easier to just use something that's already there than to make it from scratch, a bit like Sasuke's Kirin technique.

Jutsus of elemental or yin yang nature may be subject to more extensive manipulation: Shape manipulation. Rasengan is ninjutsu, a yin yang jutsu where shape manipulation is pushed to its limits. When adding a wind element to it, you make it into an elemental jutsu.

There are more jutsus out there and they sort of fit into ninjutsu but they have different forms of expression. Puppetry jutsu relies on poison and hidden weapons, whereas other jutsus require pacts or deals with insects or animals. Healing has been fairly well explained already, as well as bloodline types: Elemental (Lava == Earth+Fire. Ice == Wind+Water. Wood == Earth+Water), Body (Sakon/Ukon, Kimimaro) and Eye (Byakugan, Sharingan, Rinnegan).

Kishimoto has worked hard to make a universe that makes sense, contrary to friggin' Bleach, and it would be great if everyone at least admitted that.

Still doesn't explain why it has to be eyeballs. Sounds like something Kishi just half-assed when he wanted to make some new uber techniques for Sasuke.

I don't know why it has to be eyeballs, but Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu were part of Itachi's arsenal in part I when he owned Kakashi and escaped from Jiraiya. These techniques were clearly strange, seeing as his eyes changed. To me, the Sharingan's next stages were already thought of and thought through a while ago and it was hardly half-assed to get Sasuke on the next level of Doujutsu techniques rather than a logical development.

Originally Posted by James

That being said, who’s to say that Madara hasn't planted a Byakugan at the back of his head? Or the top of his head? The eye can see a full 359 degrees after all, so it's not like the eye has to be facing forward...

That would be awesome, in my opinion. But that's just my opinion.

[tkdtiger]

Well I think it would be interesting if he had or at the very will attempt to gain byakugan. What we do know is that we have 2 individuals that wanted the byakugan. Danzou attempted to get the byakugan and from what we know the raikage although wouldn't it be interesting if that ninja had actually been controlled to attempt to get the byakugan any ways what I'm saying is that the byakugan was important enough that two characters that were important to the story attempted to gain byakugan suggesting that it is important enough. Let's than mention that kish did add Ao who has a byakugan. He is important enough to actually give the guy a name and being present at the meeting unlike the no name byakugan users of konoha he probably will still be important since he doesn't go far from his late this though begs the question why something like the uchiha massacre didn't happen but than how easy would it be to attack a clan that can see all around the...see chakra coils and some can see chakra points that would allow them to control chakra flow and to see through stuff and great distances any ways its been mentioned that their greatest strength is in a group. What madara really needs is not nec the byakugan itself but needs a byakugan or byakugan user who can see the chakra points so he can increase his powers at least that's how I would make the byakugan relevant

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Sharingan started out fine as a kekkei-genkai based on vision (being able to copy the jutsus you see). But then it all went to hell when Kishi made up a bunch of hax jutsus that weren't based on vision and had absolutely nothing to do with each other aside from Japanese mythos. I'm not saying Kishi can't use Japanese mythology, but he needs to use it in a way that makes sense.

This was a long term plan, and one of Kishimoto's few well thought out moments. Izanagi has created everything in the Narutoverse, just as Izanagi, as one of the great Gods in Japanese mythology, helped create Japan. Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o all being ocular techniques comes directly from the fact that the 3 gods came directly from Izanagi's eyes and being, and the Sharingan comes directly from the Rinnegan (which is the doujutsu most responsible for the Izanagi). Everything of the Sharingan ties directly back to the Rinnegan in a fairly simple manner.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Please tell me if I left anything out. Oh, and pretty much every jutsu in this series seems to spring forth from nothingness. How do you explain shadow clones or people coughing up rivers of water?

You use elements by converting your chakra into the element you wish to use (literally turning your own energy into the element you desire it to be, or at least a facsimile of the actual element). A Shadow Clone is formed by taking part of your chakra, giving it shape, and then making it a partially independent entity. Consequently, all techniques fundamentally follow a basic conservation of energy.

The Sharingan/Rinnegan, by Madara's own words, can create something from nothing but a user’s imagination. Energy is involved, even sacrifice (for the Sharingan at least), but the energy output seems to be far greater than the energy input. It is the true power of a God.

That being said, this is getting off topic.

[Shiryuu]

I wonder what Madara will do now. Will he actually stop attacking Naruto just because Yamato is around? He really has no use for him, so is it just to delay the epic battle? Is Kabuto secretly protecting Naruto?

[Neji112]

Kabuto is focusing an awful lot on the idea of powering up Zetsu, it will be interesting to see if something truly epic comes from it, or if his plans just fizzle like Kohans did.

Madara mentioning that his left eye wants war could tie into some influence by the 10 tails. To me though, keeping his Sharingan eye cheapens the Rinnegan a bit, it should be the holy grail of this manga but it's being treated as just a tool to validate the Sharingan at this point. The sharingan seems a little irrelevant in the shadow of an eye that basically can do anything and everything with a little chakra and some imagination. If Madara needs a power specific power, think it up. At this point he could Izanagi his entire Moonplan into existence.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Neji112

Kabuto is focusing an awful lot on the idea of powering up Zetsu, it will be interesting to see if something truly epic comes from it, or if his plans just fizzle like Kohans did.

He probably wants to steal a part of Zetsu and use it for his secret plan. Kabuto was always the evil scientist type guy. Such guys always want to get interesting material for their experiments. In this case Zetsu, Hashirama's cells and Madara's huge collection of special eyes sure is very very interesting for Kabuto.

In terms of DBZ i would say he might turn out to be like Dr. Gero, a man who creates artifical creatures based on super-powered ninjas, and his final creature might be a mix of all known powerful ninjas, something like Cell was in DBZ. When Goku was fighting against the RR army Dr.Gero was just a minor character, he became a major character when he lost his organization, similarily Kabuto was just a minor character before Orochimaru's death, but now that his master was killed he awakened, he found a reason to live. Dr.Gero wanted to kill Goku, and right now it seems that Kabuto wants to kill Sasuke, it's kind of a revenge mission.

Originally Posted by Neji112

To me though, keeping his Sharingan eye cheapens the Rinnegan a bit, it should be the holy grail of this manga but it's being treated as just a tool to validate the Sharingan at this point. The sharingan seems a little irrelevant in the shadow of an eye that basically can do anything and everything with a little chakra and some imagination. If Madara needs a power specific power, think it up. At this point he could Izanagi his entire Moonplan into existence.

The "can do anything and everything with a little chakra" part is probably wrong, so far it seems that Madara's biggest problem is that he has no chakra for big battles, that is why every battle is a big risk for him. And if that is true it is logical to keep the sharingan: i assume that it is his escape-eye, the time-space ninjutsu used to teleport himself to safety is probably unique to that eye, and he can't do it with any other sharingan or rinnegan eye.

[DeDe]

I think the epicness[sic] Kabuto sees is the chance to control 100,000 Yamato powered up Zetsu clones. He wanted Zetsu for his own experiments, but Madara did a lot of the dirty work for him already with the clones. So he has to figure out how to covertly place something in the clones so they will follow him and not Madara when the time comes.

Then he can have his own race of atomic supermen that will conquer the world.

Kabuto has no intention of letting Madara win since that screws with his own plans.

[Poetic Justice]

This is a pretty interesting development as far as the plot is concerned, I just hope Yamato isn't the new damsel in distress for naruto to chase down.

Also Madara having one sharingan and one rinnengan looks painfully stupid, Was it that hard to come up with a new eye jutsu design?

[Alchemist007]

The most wtf thing that could happen right now: Byakugan becoming of grave importance.

[NilSon]

Originally Posted by james0246

To expand off of Frenchie's post a little (and to potentially show why the Sharingan has been fully explained), Izanagi appears to be the source of all Sharingan/MS powers (much the same as in mythology). Izanagi has the power to make fantasy into reality: Susano'o, Tsukuyomi, and Amaterasu - all are techniques that seem to spring forth from nothingness. Sadly, since the Sharingan cannot adequately use the Izanagi, prolonged use of techniques derived from the Izanagi causes destruction of the eye (and the actual use of Izanagi will automatically destroy the eye).

That being said, who’s to say that Madara hasn't planted a Byakugan at the back of his head? Or the top of his head? The eye can see a full 359 degrees after all, so it's not like the eye has to be facing forward...

In order to use Izanagi, does the user have to have EMS or just the "regular" MS is enough?

[Hunter]

The regular Sharingan is enough, there is in fact no indication that Tobi possesses the MS or EMS at the moment.

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

The most wtf thing that could happen right now: Byakugan becoming of grave importance.

I don't see it being of grave importance, but It could definitely be used in a support role

[Suika-Esper]

I can see Madara eventually implanting a Byakugan in his forehead and becoming the new Tien just for the sake of completion. His goal is to become the ultimate ninja: he wants to be the 10 tails' jinchuriki, he wanted the rinnegan, and he wants the entire world under his control. Any one of these options by themselves would put him on top of the world. In the end, trying to acquire every power-up in the Naruto world is sure to blow up in his face, but in the meantime, who will he steal it from? Hinata? Ao? Neji? Imagine Neji with an eyepatch.


Hashirama most likely plucked out his EMS eyes and destroyed them in their battle, which is why he's not as powerful as he was then. EMS by itself is pretty hax. Unlimited Mangekyo powers? Come on, what more do you need to destroy your enemies?