AnimeSuki Forums

Renall · 2009-08-19, 13:34

The demo and music box stuff takes up like 120 MB by itself, and that's after I compressed it. Does ep5 even contain any semblance of demo at all? I can understand leaving in things you might need later (unused portraits and backgrounds, screen effects, etc.), but the demo files are enormous. Sadly, they're also laced into other .nsa files that have important things, so it's not some simple matter of deleting one file. 07th would have to care about fixing it.

On arc.nsa compression: 3.5 GB of images becomes something like 800 MB in .nsa format. That's pretty decent compression, all told. But resaving with PNG/JPG gets you at 400-500 MB (less if the demo stuff is excised) before compressing the .nsa. Granted, PNG does not get a whole lot smaller, but a 400 MB folder cannot become larger when packed up, so it's still at least half size.

Marion · 2009-08-19, 13:35

Indeed, with photoshop it's difficult to tell usually. If it was in paint one could spot it off the bat.

However, if you look close enough the bottom one is slightly more grainy than the top. Top is PNG and Bottom is JPG I say~

Still you make a point k//eternal.

bernkastel51113 · 2009-08-19, 13:35

no both look the same.

Marion · 2009-08-19, 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernkastel51113

no both look the same.

Indeed, but the bottom one looks a bit more grainy around the TIP area. It's just not really too visible, so it's not like its 'omg giant difference' or anything.

Renall · 2009-08-19, 13:39

Well, there are things that will not look too different and things that will.

Portraits, there's going to be barely any difference between BMP, PNG, and JPG, except size. JPG and PNG will be about the same size, generally ~50 KB. BMP will be 1-2 MB.

Backgrounds, there are more colors, so there will be some loss/artifacting in JPG. However, the backgrounds are fuzzy, so it's hard to notice. PNG retains quality but the size reduction is less, it's about 500 KB for a background vs. 1-2 MB for a BMP. JPG lowers it to <100 KB, but I'm not sure even a marginal quality loss is worth worrying about when PNG will do fine.

Effects and menus, there is no reason to ever use JPG. Even a little bit of fuzziness or quality loss looks unprofessional. PNG is again fine here, reducing things to 20-60 KB.

k//eternal · 2009-08-19, 13:42

It's not anything anyone will be seeing in-game. I'm pretty sure what Marion is seeing is just because I issued a "spot the difference" challenge

We won't do anyone the disservice of using MS Paint JPEG or anything like that, so everyone can rest assured that whatever ends up happening, nobody's experience is going to be ruined in the slightest.

**Klashikari** · 2009-08-19, 13:45

Again, I will see myself what I can do, but I'm using Photoshop CS anyway, so regardless if it is PNG or JPG, I will use the best quality with the "save for web" feature.
But again, the change will be only marginal for the patch (though 20MB is sure good for people with slow connection).

We will talk about it to Ryukishi regarding the original game, but again: there is no guarantee that he will change anything (especially he already used the same concept for Chiru) and that we do not know if he is using a beefy image editing software (I doubt he is using MS paint anyway).

Renall · 2009-08-19, 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by k//eternal

It's not anything anyone will be seeing in-game. I'm pretty sure what Marion is seeing is just because I issued a "spot the difference" challenge

We won't do anyone the disservice of using MS Paint JPEG or anything like that, so everyone can rest assured that whatever ends up happening, nobody's experience is going to be ruined in the slightest.

I'm not worried about what you guys are going to do. Just a little surprised at how 07th managed to turn 300 MB of graphics into 3.5 GB. I just never noticed because 800 MB looked like a reasonable size for a data file. But boy howdy, it isn't.

I got the folder down to 330 MB at the absolute limit of what I considered acceptable quality. But that only pushes the install footprint of ep5 down to 1.2 GB. Most of it's music, and I don't think any of us would accept a quality loss there.

Although a friend of mine is convinced some of the stuff was remixed at a lower quality. I can't hear any difference.

k//eternal · 2009-08-19, 14:01

Well, this is the translation project thread, so the only thing of relevance is really what we're going to do...

Marion · 2009-08-19, 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by k//eternal

It's not anything anyone will be seeing in-game. I'm pretty sure what Marion is seeing is just because I issued a "spot the difference" challenge

We won't do anyone the disservice of using MS Paint JPEG or anything like that, so everyone can rest assured that whatever ends up happening, nobody's experience is going to be ruined in the slightest.

I'm a total master at spot the difference.

I'm sure Ryukishi draws them out on paper and then outlines and colors on photoshop. The color quality isn't on level with MS Paint.

Sonozaki Futagotachi · 2009-08-19, 14:52

I think I can make a stab at why 07th does graphics file formats the way it does: Control.

See, most of the standing images and buttons use the right side of the image for black-and-white alpha (transparency) data. If the alpha pixels get messed up by storing in lossy compression format, then when the image/button is drawn in the game, some of the pixels that should be transparent won't be, and vice-versa. With bmp format, they can be absolutely sure of what color each pixel has.

The background images are all jpeg, but then they don't have alpha data and are intentionally blurry, so lossy file data doesn't matter as much.

And then the nsa archive compresses those bmp files anyway (with no loss of data), so that helps some with file sizes.

...And then the sound and movie files take up a lot of space in their own right, and there's plenty of room on a DVD to store it all, and everyone's got good-sized hard drives these days, so what's the big deal?

Anyway, that's my take on the issue.

Mion (Sonozaki Futago-tachi)

P.S. - If it's that much of a space issue for you to have the games installed, there is a way to have onscripter use some of the files directly from the DVD-ROM.

Jan-Poo · 2009-08-19, 15:13

Quote:

It's not anything anyone will be seeing in-game. I'm pretty sure what Marion is seeing is just because I issued a "spot the difference" challenge

Well, normally if you use the best possible quality you won't see any difference unless you zoom the image. However, this is a 640x480 format that can be seen on full screen. And nowadays the monitors are very big. In other words, you could say that the images are in fact zoomed in full screen, which makes little imperfections more likely to be seen.

Anyway what "Mion" said is probably the right reason ryukishi made that choice. Plus he probably thinks that with the current technology, with 32GB flash cards as big as a fingertip running around, 3.5 GB isn't a problem.

BTW is onscripter tied to a 640x480 format? It would be cool if it could support higher definitions. Decidedly I'd rather have a compressed image at higher resolution than a perfect quality at 640x480.

k//eternal · 2009-08-19, 15:17

Go ahead and zoom it. You won't see anything worth caring about even when they're bigger than your screen.

Marion · 2009-08-19, 15:18

No no trust me. I only saw because I looked hard and good. It's barely noticeable. No one would see it unless they actually looked and focus hard enough.

Jan-Poo · 2009-08-19, 15:30

Actually K//Eternal, in the images you posted there is a very noticeable compression dithering between the text lines ^^;

How can't you see that? °° At full screen is very evident.

k//eternal · 2009-08-19, 19:27

Okay, besides Jan-Poo who is a freak, nobody will notice anything worth caring about

zorahk · 2009-08-19, 21:01

You still haven't answered what the point would be to compressing it since the witch hunt does not distribute the full game and their patches are small to begin with.

k//eternal · 2009-08-19, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

But again, the change will be only marginal for the patch (though 20MB is sure good for people with slow connection).

Incidentally, if we get permission from Ryu07 to distribute a pre-patched demo, we could certainly compress the files in there.

Slate · 2009-08-19, 21:49

The difference between the appearance of the text wasn't the first thing I noticed. It was the outer edges of Battler's hair.

k//eternal · 2009-08-19, 21:52

Even if you see a difference, it's hard to tell which is the "original" lossless one, just because the graphics weren't exactly perfect to begin with.

Regardless, it's not really up for further discussion, because it's a waste of time. I was really hoping to end the discussion with that pair of images, as no matter what you see, it's unlikely that you'll consider it significant, especially without the other for comparison. We'll probably take a few minutes to crunch things down one way or the other, and that'll be the end of it.

2009-08-19, 13:45	Link #2307
Klashikari 阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180 Graphic Designer Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belgium, Brussels Age: 37	Again, I will see myself what I can do, but I'm using Photoshop CS anyway, so regardless if it is PNG or JPG, I will use the best quality with the "save for web" feature. But again, the change will be only marginal for the patch (though 20MB is sure good for people with slow connection). We will talk about it to Ryukishi regarding the original game, but again: there is no guarantee that he will change anything (especially he already used the same concept for Chiru) and that we do not know if he is using a beefy image editing software (I doubt he is using MS paint anyway). __________________ [Sig art: Kagura Yuu, Nunukko, Maku Rako & Mishima Kurone] / [Twitter]

2009-08-19, 14:52	Link #2311
Sonozaki Futagotachi Translation Group Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Denver	I think I can make a stab at why 07th does graphics file formats the way it does: Control. See, most of the standing images and buttons use the right side of the image for black-and-white alpha (transparency) data. If the alpha pixels get messed up by storing in lossy compression format, then when the image/button is drawn in the game, some of the pixels that should be transparent won't be, and vice-versa. With bmp format, they can be absolutely sure of what color each pixel has. The background images are all jpeg, but then they don't have alpha data and are intentionally blurry, so lossy file data doesn't matter as much. And then the nsa archive compresses those bmp files anyway (with no loss of data), so that helps some with file sizes. ...And then the sound and movie files take up a lot of space in their own right, and there's plenty of room on a DVD to store it all, and everyone's got good-sized hard drives these days, so what's the big deal? Anyway, that's my take on the issue. Mion (Sonozaki Futago-tachi) P.S. - If it's that much of a space issue for you to have the games installed, there is a way to have onscripter use some of the files directly from the DVD-ROM. __________________ Our Diary of Hinamizawa Translation Project News

2009-08-19, 15:30	Link #2315
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Actually K//Eternal, in the images you posted there is a very noticeable compression dithering between the text lines ^^; How can't you see that? °° At full screen is very evident. __________________

2009-08-19, 13:34	Link #2301
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	The demo and music box stuff takes up like 120 MB by itself, and that's after I compressed it. Does ep5 even contain any semblance of demo at all? I can understand leaving in things you might need later (unused portraits and backgrounds, screen effects, etc.), but the demo files are enormous. Sadly, they're also laced into other .nsa files that have important things, so it's not some simple matter of deleting one file. 07th would have to care about fixing it. On arc.nsa compression: 3.5 GB of images becomes something like 800 MB in .nsa format. That's pretty decent compression, all told. But resaving with PNG/JPG gets you at 400-500 MB (less if the demo stuff is excised) before compressing the .nsa. Granted, PNG does not get a whole lot smaller, but a 400 MB folder cannot become larger when packed up, so it's still at least half size.

2009-08-19, 13:35	Link #2302
Marion The Great Dine Join Date: Feb 2009	Indeed, with photoshop it's difficult to tell usually. If it was in paint one could spot it off the bat. However, if you look close enough the bottom one is slightly more grainy than the top. Top is PNG and Bottom is JPG I say~ Still you make a point k//eternal.

2009-08-19, 13:35	Link #2303
bernkastel51113 kakera traveler Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: somewhere in canada	no both look the same.

2009-08-19, 13:39	Link #2305
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	Well, there are things that will not look too different and things that will. Portraits, there's going to be barely any difference between BMP, PNG, and JPG, except size. JPG and PNG will be about the same size, generally ~50 KB. BMP will be 1-2 MB. Backgrounds, there are more colors, so there will be some loss/artifacting in JPG. However, the backgrounds are fuzzy, so it's hard to notice. PNG retains quality but the size reduction is less, it's about 500 KB for a background vs. 1-2 MB for a BMP. JPG lowers it to <100 KB, but I'm not sure even a marginal quality loss is worth worrying about when PNG will do fine. Effects and menus, there is no reason to ever use JPG. Even a little bit of fuzziness or quality loss looks unprofessional. PNG is again fine here, reducing things to 20-60 KB.

2009-08-19, 13:42	Link #2306
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	It's not anything anyone will be seeing in-game. I'm pretty sure what Marion is seeing is just because I issued a "spot the difference" challenge We won't do anyone the disservice of using MS Paint JPEG or anything like that, so everyone can rest assured that whatever ends up happening, nobody's experience is going to be ruined in the slightest.

2009-08-19, 14:01	Link #2309
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	Well, this is the translation project thread, so the only thing of relevance is really what we're going to do...

2009-08-19, 15:17	Link #2313
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	Go ahead and zoom it. You won't see anything worth caring about even when they're bigger than your screen.

2009-08-19, 15:18	Link #2314
Marion The Great Dine Join Date: Feb 2009	No no trust me. I only saw because I looked hard and good. It's barely noticeable. No one would see it unless they actually looked and focus hard enough.

2009-08-19, 19:27	Link #2316
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	Okay, besides Jan-Poo who is a freak, nobody will notice anything worth caring about

2009-08-19, 21:01	Link #2317
zorahk Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008	You still haven't answered what the point would be to compressing it since the witch hunt does not distribute the full game and their patches are small to begin with.

2009-08-19, 21:49	Link #2319
Slate Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007	The difference between the appearance of the text wasn't the first thing I noticed. It was the outer edges of Battler's hair.

2009-08-19, 21:52	Link #2320
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	Even if you see a difference, it's hard to tell which is the "original" lossless one, just because the graphics weren't exactly perfect to begin with. Regardless, it's not really up for further discussion, because it's a waste of time. I was really hoping to end the discussion with that pair of images, as no matter what you see, it's unlikely that you'll consider it significant, especially without the other for comparison. We'll probably take a few minutes to crunch things down one way or the other, and that'll be the end of it.