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yuzen003 · 2011-10-01, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Even in the medieval setting war is taxing, further taxing of the population to fund wars is evident in the crusades, the 100 years war, etc, even in feudal society war could only prolong the inevitable, if we look at Alexander and Rome, it's obvious that the natural order of things is for them to end, so to imply that the world is better with this arbitrary and artificial war is ridiculous, if history has taught us anything is that war is a burden, and that resources that are necessity for a successful and prosperous society are lost during times of war due to the pressing matters of war.

I didn't read it as saying the world is not eating up resources or that war is not a burden, but that it has had a overall positive effect. The human and demon worlds were fractured into seperate and opposed states and the ongoing war has created a reason for them to unify. Rome was a single nation and already understood many of the benefits of trade, many of their wars were civil which only wastes resources but their external wars brought in additional territory and opened new trade routes. The wars eventually changed the social structure of the nation as the small farmers who had originally formed the core Roman armies were kept away from home for extended periods of time (thus being unable to breed heirs) but the external wars frequently increased the wealth and resources of the nation. Alexander's campaigns increased the size, wealth and power of Macedon, the economic benefit to Macedon was enormous. The 100 years war was a civil war, so no matter which side won no new resources would have been added and existing resources would have been consumed.

The crusades are the best parallel because it unified the many rival European states, but the Mongolian conquests of Genghis Khan were another good example given Genghis had to unify the feuding Mongolian tribes. The nation was at war on multiple fronts for an extended period of time in China, Central-Asia, Korea, the Middle-East, Russia and Europe; but they enjoyed greater prosperity and generated increased trade and economic prosperity in the territories they controlled as a result of their wars.

They acknowledged war consumes resources, but in the current conditions of the world the story is set in it has had a net positive effect. Given more time that would likely shift to a negative effect, but considering the demon queen possesses advanced knowledge/technology it might have had a lasting positive effect similar to the Yuan dynasty of China.

Mentar · 2011-10-01, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosauz

The notion that war fuels economies is ridiculous, [...] The notion that war would be good for the common folk is absurd and surreal.

Where do you get the strange idea from that this is what the story is saying? You make it sound as if the story implied that war was a favorable state of affairs. It's NOT. In case you missed it, Demon Queen and Hero are working to find a way to END the war.

No, what the story is saying is that it's the RULERS of a marginal country which is waging a proxy war and which is constantly propped up by outside help feel constricted by it. And that without the outside help, they'd have poverty and starvation where they currently have an uneasy balance. That's something completely different, and it's also something for which there's been many examples in history and even in nowadays times.

Quote:

I mean a perfect parallel is the war on terror, we are fighting an abstraction such as Demons.

I really hate the term "war on terror", because it's not a war at all. It's a stupid propaganda vehicle. But fine, let's pretend it was that - Afghanistan - then it's a perfect example of how the story is right. The ruling class of the proxy war country is stuffing its pockets with money (be it the "government" in Kabul or the warlords of the pashtuns et al.) - and both want the fights to continue.

Quote:

Also the notion that it's the states using each other's as buffers is most likely not relevant,

Made me giggle. Read up on the "fly trap principle". "We have to fight them there, or we'd have to fight them at home". Rings a bell? Proxy wars is 100% actual.

Sorry man, that felt very unconvincing to me. Especially taking into account that nowadays' situation is very different from the medieval setting which the story is taking place in. I give Maoyuu Maou Yuusha alot of credit for being pretty realistic.

Irenicus · 2011-10-02, 03:33

yuzen003 raised a bunch of examples, and Mentar pointed out what was really the case, so let me add one more point of consideration:

Nosauz, you're ignoring the in-story information that before this large scale conflict there was already plenty of fighting, mayhem, famine, and general destruction. Low level warfare is a staple of Medieval society. Indeed, with the absence of the Demon Queen it's already restarting in the demon world -- the latest chapter had the Hero intervened in one of those conflicts as a representative of the Queen to, more or less, reassert the authority of his lovely "master."

Were this great war to end in current terms the southern kingdoms of the human world would be flooded with armed men with no employment. Bad, bad things happen when a large number of armed and unemployed exist in famine conditions. Pillage, rape, slaughter, banditry, rogue armies, warlords, you name it.

It is only relatively recently that human societies developed to the point where expansion in resource production and medical advancement allowed the population to grow exponentially, and really very recently that the developed world see a demographic trend that see a gradual population stabilization and even decline. Throughout history things worked differently: the graphs swing wildly up and down, up and down, and every wild upswing is a population boom exceeding resources which brings about famine, carnage, plague, and migrations (which generally provoke more carnage) to produce a downturn.

This manga is not the broken window fallacy at work; windows were already being broken on a daily basis. What the situation in this manga is about is that the great war forced each side to abandon its internecine conflicts and cooperate, directing their military energies against a common foe. The war's boon isn't that killing people and fairies creates production, it's that it forced an increase in organizational level to allow for far better utilization of untapped potential (+ artificially raising demand creating a persistent war boom). Moreover, the leaders are well aware that they're trapped in a situation that cannot last forever, hence the Demon Queen's actions, the Hero's endorsement (nothing to do with useless meat so he says), and the newly introduced prince in the winter kingdom having explicitly wondered if the new agricultural advances might allow his people a way out of this uneasy equilibrium.

Key Board · 2011-10-02, 05:12

There are indeed elements in the story that intentionally remind you of Afganistan.

Remember when the Soviets invaded Afganistan and the US armed the locals? That was a proxy war, because there would be serious repercussions if the US fought the Soviets directly.

But everything said and done, Afganistan was abandoned after the cold war. Along with stocks of RPGs. Guess what happened?

Well, as the Demon Queen said, when you have generations of people who are fighting with guns their entire lives and are suddenly left to their own, there is only one inevitability.

A lot of them are going back to tribal warfare. Because it's hard for them to live any other way. Also keep in mind that only around 10% of Afghanistan is arable and even less is cultivated. And what's cultivated is used to grow opium, because.. that's what brings in the dollars.

The situation in this manga is similar to that. These people in these lands pick up their swords because they don't have many options.

The demon queen is introducing a wonder crop among other things to help persuade people put down their swords and show that it's not entirely hopeless to do other things.

TrueKnight · 2011-10-02, 06:35

I wouldn’t actually call what happen in this series reflect what actually happens in medieval times. This series just made it convinient so that potato or whatever could be actually be considered as miraculous ingredient. When you actually read medieval histories and books starting from the era of the Eastern Roman Empire (aka Byzantines), their economic trade and capital that of Constantinople, their relationship with the Rus, the Norman’s conquest of South Italy establishing a trade route with the Tunisian Muslims (or the Almoharivids Sultanate at the time) , medieval economics are actually much more complex and mostly depends and involving self pety / warmongering pride of its rulers at the time. When I see the demon queen with her economic fiasco it reminded me of Roger II of Sicily or the Great Emir of Cordoba.... but memory fails and I’m too lazy to look for my books from the storage, its been ages since I read those.

Mentar · 2011-10-02, 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueKnight

I wouldn’t actually call what happen in this series reflect what actually happens in medieval times. This series just made it convinient so that potato or whatever could be actually be considered as miraculous ingredient.

Just the opposite. The potato WAS a miracle ingredient that was the main reason for the population boom in Europe in the 19th century, since it massively boosted the local food output. What the story changes is that it's pushed back into what looks like a late middle age setting. For example, alot of the rise of Prussia can be attributed to the fact that cultivation of the potato was strongly encouraged. The advanced 4-step turnip crop rotation was from the 18th century.

So, what the story is doing is trying to maintain the late-medieval fantasy setting and trying to explain the effects which advanced agriculture techniques had in Europe starting in the 18th century. Which is necessary, because in that time, the story-breaking use of firearms became more and more prevalent.

TrueKnight · 2011-10-02, 08:41

Hmm the story isn’t actually a late middle age setting, but more like earlier ones (like 1000 – 1250) Because in the late medieval Europe setting (circa around 1500-1550) they were already familiar with gunpowder and sea exploring and the medieval trades were at its peak with the Portugese and Spanish brought several ingridients from the new world (includes the potato). The Ottoman Turks (who ruled most of the Middle East) focuses their trade and controlled the Silk Road until the outskirts which reaches until China. Not to mention the Ottoman traders manages also to reach South Eath Asia and established a trade route which brought spices. China and India also had their history with medieval crops and agriculture, some were more advanced than their European counterpart.... dunno about Japan though.

And thanks for the info on the potato impact for 18-19th century Europeans, but my point was they’re trying to make the agriculture stuff the main issue of the story out of convinience without actually addressing others (i.e lords who wished to conquer more lands, religious motivations), which were more prevalent back on those days. Agriculture was just an additional bonus which folllows the policy of the ruler, like the implementation of wheat in the outskirts of Norway, or Denmark in the early medieval times during the rule of Valdemar the Great.

Bonta Kun · 2011-10-02, 09:06

Yea way I see it is they take some RL stuff but put a little manga spin to it, I don't think one should really be putting too much thought into the details of timelines and what not.
Sure if you want to then go ahead but I don't think it's really gonna mimic real world history to a T here, cause don't forget this is about demons and humans and magic for that matter.

TrueKnight · 2011-10-02, 09:29

Well as they say, when you apply real life into manga/anime then God kills a cat girl.....

For now let's enjoy more useless meat! I always liked fantasy manga/anime stories where a strong/skilled male lead being paired up with smart women, not mention she's a pompous smart demon queen to boot! Light and Dark being paired in the most bizarre situation....

And we learn the demon queen did have a name...being called 'Ruby Eye'..Now I just hope she didn't come from the future or anything (due to her coming from the magical library and all)...because that'll ruin the story for me. Fantasy setting all the way.

Xacual · 2011-10-02, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueKnight

And we learn the demon queen did have a name...being called 'Ruby Eye'..Now I just hope she didn't come from the future or anything (due to her coming from the magical library and all)...because that'll ruin the story for me. Fantasy setting all the way.

Ruby Eye is just another title, just being the title the demons have for her instead. Since demons will differentiate between their various demon lords that they've had.

Key Board · 2011-10-03, 07:05

It's probably a Slayers homage

The story is full with Japanese Fantasy nerd cliches

surerman · 2011-10-03, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xacual

Ruby Eye is just another title, just being the title the demons have for her instead. Since demons will differentiate between their various demon lords that they've had.

Ruby Eye because her red eyes?, then Crimson Scholar title is because her Red Hair?
what a simple name yet funny at the same time

I wonder if she'll be called "Twin Melons" because her big bust

Is this monthly?, I hope it become popular and bi-weekly. Too bad no translation for the light novel

Xacual · 2011-10-03, 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by surerman

Ruby Eye because her red eyes?, then Crimson Scholar title is because her Red Hair?
what a simple name yet funny at the same time

I wonder if she'll be called "Twin Melons" because her big bust

Is this monthly?, I hope it become popular and bi-weekly. Too bad no translation for the light novel

It's monthly, it comes out around the middle of the month and then its a week or two before we have the chapter translation out.

creb · 2011-10-06, 18:56

This is pretty much the funniest thing I've read since....8bit theater.

MrTerrorist · 2011-10-13, 19:56

Chapter 8 of the Comic Clear version is out.

Chapter 8

Spoiler for c8:

Mentar · 2011-10-24, 03:43

Chapter without any real trace of Demon Queen or Hero makes me sad. It may be necessary story-wise, but still...

Xacual · 2011-10-24, 03:45

I was wondering what you were talking about, I forgot the different versions of the series. I much prefer the one that is currently getting translated. Chapter 6 raw has been out for a couple of weeks and it was pretty good.

tsunade666 · 2011-10-27, 07:00

new chapter has been translated.

Hero is really insanely strong. Nice conversation between the young merchant and scholar

lolz on the end part about marriage proposal.

MrTerrorist · 2011-10-27, 08:23

Spoiler for c6:

surerman · 2011-10-27, 10:33

Ok.....who want to kill the merchant with me?...

raise your hand and bring your strongest weapon along...
and please leave their head for me....I'M GONNA EAT THEM MYSELF!!!

2011-10-02, 05:12	Link #124
Key Board Carbon Join Date: Nov 2003	There are indeed elements in the story that intentionally remind you of Afganistan. Remember when the Soviets invaded Afganistan and the US armed the locals? That was a proxy war, because there would be serious repercussions if the US fought the Soviets directly. But everything said and done, Afganistan was abandoned after the cold war. Along with stocks of RPGs. Guess what happened? Well, as the Demon Queen said, when you have generations of people who are fighting with guns their entire lives and are suddenly left to their own, there is only one inevitability. A lot of them are going back to tribal warfare. Because it's hard for them to live any other way. Also keep in mind that only around 10% of Afghanistan is arable and even less is cultivated. And what's cultivated is used to grow opium, because.. that's what brings in the dollars. The situation in this manga is similar to that. These people in these lands pick up their swords because they don't have many options. The demon queen is introducing a wonder crop among other things to help persuade people put down their swords and show that it's not entirely hopeless to do other things. __________________ "Legitimacy is based on three things. First of all, the people who are asked to obey authority have to feel like they have a voice—that if they speak up, they will be heard. Second, the law has to be predictable. There has to be a reasonable expectation that the rules tomorrow are going to be roughly the same as the rules today. And third, the authority has to be fair. It can’t treat one group differently from another.” Malcolm Gladwell

2011-10-02, 09:06	Link #128
Bonta Kun Know who you are Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Resides within the depths of Ned infested Glasgow	Yea way I see it is they take some RL stuff but put a little manga spin to it, I don't think one should really be putting too much thought into the details of timelines and what not. Sure if you want to then go ahead but I don't think it's really gonna mimic real world history to a T here, cause don't forget this is about demons and humans and magic for that matter. __________________

2011-10-03, 07:05	Link #131
Key Board Carbon Join Date: Nov 2003	It's probably a Slayers homage The story is full with Japanese Fantasy nerd cliches __________________ "Legitimacy is based on three things. First of all, the people who are asked to obey authority have to feel like they have a voice—that if they speak up, they will be heard. Second, the law has to be predictable. There has to be a reasonable expectation that the rules tomorrow are going to be roughly the same as the rules today. And third, the authority has to be fair. It can’t treat one group differently from another.” Malcolm Gladwell

2011-10-06, 18:56	Link #134
creb Hiding Under Your Bed Join Date: May 2008	This is pretty much the funniest thing I've read since....8bit theater. __________________ http://myanimelist.net/animelist/creb http://myanimelist.net/mangalist/creb It feels like years since they've been updated, btw. Also, cake.

2011-10-13, 19:56	Link #135
MrTerrorist Takao Tsundere Cruiser Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Classified	Chapter 8 of the Comic Clear version is out. Chapter 8 Spoiler for c8: The humans and the Merchant Union are trying to attack an island but it's guarded by demons lead by the South Arctic General aka the giant Walrus Demon. While the merchants have a meeting, they get a gift from the Crimson Scholar; the special compass she made. __________________

2011-10-02, 03:33	Link #123
Irenicus Le fou, c'est moi Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA Age: 34	yuzen003 raised a bunch of examples, and Mentar pointed out what was really the case, so let me add one more point of consideration: Nosauz, you're ignoring the in-story information that before this large scale conflict there was already plenty of fighting, mayhem, famine, and general destruction. Low level warfare is a staple of Medieval society. Indeed, with the absence of the Demon Queen it's already restarting in the demon world -- the latest chapter had the Hero intervened in one of those conflicts as a representative of the Queen to, more or less, reassert the authority of his lovely "master." Were this great war to end in current terms the southern kingdoms of the human world would be flooded with armed men with no employment. Bad, bad things happen when a large number of armed and unemployed exist in famine conditions. Pillage, rape, slaughter, banditry, rogue armies, warlords, you name it. It is only relatively recently that human societies developed to the point where expansion in resource production and medical advancement allowed the population to grow exponentially, and really very recently that the developed world see a demographic trend that see a gradual population stabilization and even decline. Throughout history things worked differently: the graphs swing wildly up and down, up and down, and every wild upswing is a population boom exceeding resources which brings about famine, carnage, plague, and migrations (which generally provoke more carnage) to produce a downturn. This manga is not the broken window fallacy at work; windows were already being broken on a daily basis. What the situation in this manga is about is that the great war forced each side to abandon its internecine conflicts and cooperate, directing their military energies against a common foe. The war's boon isn't that killing people and fairies creates production, it's that it forced an increase in organizational level to allow for far better utilization of untapped potential (+ artificially raising demand creating a persistent war boom). Moreover, the leaders are well aware that they're trapped in a situation that cannot last forever, hence the Demon Queen's actions, the Hero's endorsement (nothing to do with useless meat so he says), and the newly introduced prince in the winter kingdom having explicitly wondered if the new agricultural advances might allow his people a way out of this uneasy equilibrium.

2011-10-02, 06:35	Link #125
TrueKnight Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004	I wouldn’t actually call what happen in this series reflect what actually happens in medieval times. This series just made it convinient so that potato or whatever could be actually be considered as miraculous ingredient. When you actually read medieval histories and books starting from the era of the Eastern Roman Empire (aka Byzantines), their economic trade and capital that of Constantinople, their relationship with the Rus, the Norman’s conquest of South Italy establishing a trade route with the Tunisian Muslims (or the Almoharivids Sultanate at the time) , medieval economics are actually much more complex and mostly depends and involving self pety / warmongering pride of its rulers at the time. When I see the demon queen with her economic fiasco it reminded me of Roger II of Sicily or the Great Emir of Cordoba.... but memory fails and I’m too lazy to look for my books from the storage, its been ages since I read those.

2011-10-02, 08:41	Link #127
TrueKnight Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004	Hmm the story isn’t actually a late middle age setting, but more like earlier ones (like 1000 – 1250) Because in the late medieval Europe setting (circa around 1500-1550) they were already familiar with gunpowder and sea exploring and the medieval trades were at its peak with the Portugese and Spanish brought several ingridients from the new world (includes the potato). The Ottoman Turks (who ruled most of the Middle East) focuses their trade and controlled the Silk Road until the outskirts which reaches until China. Not to mention the Ottoman traders manages also to reach South Eath Asia and established a trade route which brought spices. China and India also had their history with medieval crops and agriculture, some were more advanced than their European counterpart.... dunno about Japan though. And thanks for the info on the potato impact for 18-19th century Europeans, but my point was they’re trying to make the agriculture stuff the main issue of the story out of convinience without actually addressing others (i.e lords who wished to conquer more lands, religious motivations), which were more prevalent back on those days. Agriculture was just an additional bonus which folllows the policy of the ruler, like the implementation of wheat in the outskirts of Norway, or Denmark in the early medieval times during the rule of Valdemar the Great.

2011-10-02, 09:29	Link #129
TrueKnight Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004	Well as they say, when you apply real life into manga/anime then God kills a cat girl..... For now let's enjoy more useless meat! I always liked fantasy manga/anime stories where a strong/skilled male lead being paired up with smart women, not mention she's a pompous smart demon queen to boot! Light and Dark being paired in the most bizarre situation.... And we learn the demon queen did have a name...being called 'Ruby Eye'..Now I just hope she didn't come from the future or anything (due to her coming from the magical library and all)...because that'll ruin the story for me. Fantasy setting all the way.

2011-10-24, 03:43	Link #136
Mentar Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hamburg Age: 54	Chapter without any real trace of Demon Queen or Hero makes me sad. It may be necessary story-wise, but still...

2011-10-24, 03:45	Link #137
Xacual Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008	I was wondering what you were talking about, I forgot the different versions of the series. I much prefer the one that is currently getting translated. Chapter 6 raw has been out for a couple of weeks and it was pretty good. __________________ I was influenced by a certain group overflowing with madness and started trying to write a story. Please give it a try. Crashed into Fantasy

2011-10-27, 07:00	Link #138
tsunade666 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: In my room	new chapter has been translated. Hero is really insanely strong. Nice conversation between the young merchant and scholar lolz on the end part about marriage proposal. __________________ To A certain Lonely Hero

2011-10-27, 08:23	Link #139
MrTerrorist Takao Tsundere Cruiser Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Classified	Spoiler for c6: Well that's awkward. Demon Queen makes a deal with the Union for having licensing rights for her compass in exchange the Union planting Corn crops and to thank her the Young Merchant propose marriage to her! At the Demon world, The Hero makes a deal with Archduke Fire Dragon that his clan will no longer attack the human held Gateway city in exchange that the Hero himself will take the city back which Archduke sweetens the deal by giving his daughter, the Dragon Princess as the Hero's wife/mistress if he succeeds as a reward! Silly merchant and Dragon, Hero and Demon Queen are already hitched with each other. And looks like the humans are planning on attacking the only Demon-held island in the human world. __________________

2011-10-27, 10:33	Link #140
surerman Banned Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Killers Special Mobile Prison	Ok.....who want to kill the merchant with me?... raise your hand and bring your strongest weapon along... and please leave their head for me....I'M GONNA EAT THEM MYSELF!!!