Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's also the world Homura made herself to make herself happy. The others in the dream world are primarily happy as a result of Homura's happiness necessitating it. It's her world first and foremost.

This contradicts what's stated in the movie. If you're not going to take the movie as canon there's no point in this argument.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Even if you're complete right, though, HOMURA DOESN'T KNOW THIS at the time. Her confirmation bias issue doesn't go away.

She learns about it when she talks with QB, which is before she takes actions.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

"I feel good for donating to charity"

She doesn't feel good at all. In fact, despite her I'm The Devil act, it's pretty freaking obvious she feels like shit.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

She's selfish because the end-result of her moral priorities results in her own happiness.

I don't think she feels happy at all.

[AuraTwilight]

This contradicts what's stated in the movie. If you're not going to take the movie as canon there's no point in this argument.

Er, no it doesn't. It's supplemental. Kyubey describes it as the world Homura made herself. The others may be getting things they want, yes. I am speculating on the reason for that, though, and the idea that Homura is impressing her desires on Madoka is speculation of mine, yes, but it's a valid one, because Madoka taking part as a normal girl and claiming she doesn't want to separate from her loved ones can, honestly, mean several things. Devil in the details, and all that.

For instance, what if Madoka entered the soul gem with the desire of "I want to speak with Homura and assure her she and everyone else are still important to me" or something along those lines?

It doesn't matter, though. Homura didn't know the true nature of the dream world when she made her conclusion. It might've been reinforced by the information she got later, but...

She learns about it when she talks with QB, which is before she takes actions.

Pffft, Homura hanging on to validating data and dismissing contradicting ones, what? She's totally never done that before, ever, in the course of the anime.

You'd almost think the girl had warped priorities, or something.

She doesn't feel good at all. In fact, despite her I'm the Devil act, it's pretty freaking obvious she feels like shit.

I was giving an example instead of trying to make a direct comparison, but okay. Shit-feeling aside, bear in mind that her final lines make this sound like Phase One of her Master Plan. That she feels like shit now doesn't change that she's aiming for a conclusion that will make her happy, or atleast self-validated. Plenty of people seek validation for their efforts over personal happiness; it's still a self-motivated desire even if they seek validation for helping other people at their own expense.

She doesn't feel happy at all.

She will be when she gets what she wants and finally wins. She might not be happy with HERSELF, but she desires that outcome.

I mean, hell, people can commit suicide and still be selfish. You don't think they can put themselves through hell and still be so?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

For instance, what if Madoka entered the soul gem with the desire of "I want to speak with Homura and assure her she and everyone else are still important to me" or something along those lines?

In the end, while I base my argument on actual content, all you have are assumptions.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Homura hanging on to validating data and dismissing contradicting ones, what? She's totally never done that before, ever, in the course of the anime.

The only contradicting data are you're own assumptions.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

bear in mind that her final lines make this sound like Phase One of her Master Plan.

That's possible.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

she's aiming for a conclusion that will make her happy, or atleast self-validated.

That's your biased assumption. We have absolutely no idea what she's planning, if indeed she's planning something.

Is that all you got? Because unless you can produce actual content to support your argument, I don't see the point of this discussion.

[AuraTwilight]

In the end, while I base my argument on actual content, all you have are assumptions.

I've brought in actual content multiple times. My hypotheticals have a merit and are reaching for a thematic point of contention you're not even trying to address. If you don't want to, that's fine, but admit you're not interested in that discussion instead of just dismissing me. I'm not the one who engaged in argument fallacies a page or two back, after all. :P

The only contradicting data are you're own assumptions.

Non-sequitor, batman. Homura's had a habit of dismissing possibilities in material besides Rebellion for the sake of holding onto her lifelines before. Such as the fact that she simply can't beat Walpurgis herself, as the most overt one.

Other examples include: Several PSP scenarios (canonicity debateable admittedly), some of her behavior in Oriko, such as her reaction to her Hannibal Lecture (btw Oriko called her out as selfish and never got properly rebuked for it. Neener neener :P), and her willingness to resort to the reset button when things become too inconvenient to cope with.

Which Sayaka calls her on in the movie, by the way. I mean, wow, Homura is willing to negate entire timelines before she knows the outcome FOR SURE, and you don't think she's willing to dismiss information that contradicts her biases? She's been doing so in order to avoid becoming a Witch prior to Madoka's ascension.

That's your biased assumption. We have absolutely no idea what she's planning, if indeed she's planning something.

If <Result X> isn't something she'd be satisfied with accomplishing, she wouldn't be attempting to accomplish it. Satisfaction falls under the pursuit of self-interest, Kazu-kun. You haven't even attempted to refute this, you've just ignored it like half of my other points.

Is that all you got?

No, not when you've deliberately avoided acknowledging half of it.

Because unless you can produce actual content to support your argument, I don't see the point of this discussion.

Says the guy who defines terms in such a way that he can't be wrong, if he defines them at all.

[daimonth]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

.



You're absolutely right, but in the context of the 12 episodes of the anime, nothing calls Madoka's omniscience into question, and the only thing that does (Rebellion) has lots of things that could be cases of bad writing or plot holes even if it didn't question Madoka's omniscience at all. I am seriously calling into question the in-universe coherence of this movie.

And anyway, Madoka's omniscience being absolute is an entirely academic point of contention; she is omniscient about everything in the story that really matters or that she has any possibility to influence (The lives of Magical Girls). Hell, her not knowing Homura would pull shit on her is a blatant contradiction of things she should have perfect observation of, her omniscience on other things completely disregarded.



Everything is a matter of character perception because we see the series of viewpoint characters and we have no omniscient narrator describing things to us outside of the context of a character speaking about or observing something. If you're going to take this viewpoint, then we loop back to the "Everything could be a dream!" scenario. You're engaging in special pleading by calling this one thing into question and not everything else that meets the same criteria.

If you're going to wait on an author confirmation, don't hold your breath. If you're waiting on narrative confirmation, you had one until Rebellion called it into question. Madoka observes all universes that ever were and ever will be that matter in the narrative. Her ability to see beyond that is immaterial and our ability to discern the difference between her virtual omniscience and actual omniscience is entirely impossible to falsify because we ourselves are not omniscient. We HAVE to take our word for it because nothing in the narrative could ever, ever falsify her claims. The fact that our TV or computer screens can't depict the entirety of the omniverse means there will always be a blindspot you can claim Madoka's observing.

"Yea, that's approximately billions of universes, alright. But what about the TRILLIONS we're not being shown, hmmm?"



Amy the cat existed in the OP and Gen Urobuchi had no goddamn idea about it until it was too late to change it. Her existence as a piece of Madoka's character backround was invented months after the fact. This argument doesn't hold water. You could claim the song's lyrics were retconned into relevancy with the creation of Rebellion, but you cannot reliably argue that they were always intended to be canonically relevant beyond anything aside from coloring Madoka's character (which can be done without giving canonical insight into her actual thoughts, as demonstrated by the 100 Questions survey officially filled out for her in her character-voice).

You seem to have missed my arguement. The character song came out with BD which came out right after the ending. It specifically illustrates a point which Rebellion confirmed. Just because its a point that did not get any focus till now does not mean it does not exist. The reason why that song was there, specifying Madoka's lonelines was.. what, coincidence? Why are you ignoring a point that the series repeatedly hammered home, a point that existed before rebellion came out?

Also Shinbo also confirmed what Madoka told Homura in that field was her true feeling in the pamphlet interview that came along with movie.

As for that omniscient thing again, Her basis of power of which is her wish does not automatic imply such Omniscience as you seem to take, presenting indirect contention. On the other hand nothing in the show supports it either other than a single line by Madoka. Which can be inaccurate as perceived by character, or taken out of context.

There are plenty of way to confirm omniscience through narration, story, plot. A declaration by a single character would hold no value if its not confirmed through story and action as characters as inherently flawed and limited by their own view.

Yes, not everything need to be confirmed. However, basing your arguement on single character declaration is not sound when there are no other corresponding support exist within the story. Nor is it logical to deny the possibility that the character may be incorrect.

As for how Homura surprised Madoka. Homura was always an anomaly in the time stream, allowing to keep her memory, witnessing universe being reformed. Also at the end of the movie Homura was also not following the norm Magic girl to Witch process due to QB's intervention. It is questionable at that point whether even she falls in either of those categories. Without knowing exactly what Madoka's omniscience entails, I am not sure how one can say what kind of blind spot that the system may have and what makes sense or not.

[daimonth]

Also I think its incorrect to compare a cat added for a few frame in the opening to a song chosen, composed, sung specifically for Madoka.

[AuraTwilight]

You seem to have missed my arguement. The character song came out with BD which came out right after the ending. It specifically illustrates a point which Rebellion confirmed. Just because its a point that did not get any focus till now does not mean it does not exist. The reason why that song was there, specifying Madoka's lonelines was.. what, coincidence? Why are you ignoring a point that the series repeatedly hammered home, a point that existed before rebellion came out?

I'm willing to concede the song's possible relevance but "hammered home"? The show had a theme that Madoka shouldn't contract and throw away her happy life unless it was the best option. It had a theme of Madoka feeling of low self-worth, useless, or unproductive. Those are both different from a theme of loneliness as a character trait. If you never heard the song and only watched the anime, you'd probably never pick up on that. Madoka's basically never given an oppurtunity to feel lonely at any point in the show.

Also, this is the anime industry we're talking about, here. Publishing image songs for the sake of it isn't very uncommon. Hell, "i'm home" is pretty much just pure shipping fuel. It doesn't really properly correspond to any point in Sayaka's and Kyoko's relationship except in some undepicted timeline or a hypothetical afterlife.

Also Shinbo also confirmed what Madoka told Homura in that field was her true feeling in the pamphlet interview that came along with movie.

I, unfortunately, never had a chance to read that yet. If that's true, that's fine, I'll concede the point. Though my issue with Homura's confirmation bias still remains.

As for that omniscient thing again, Her basis of power of which is her wish does not automatic imply such Omniscience as you seem to take, presenting indirect contention. On the other hand nothing in the show supports it either other than a single line by Madoka. Which can be inaccurate as perceived by character, or taken out of context.

Madoka herself claims she can perceive all universes that ever have, or ever will exist. I don't think context is the issue, though her being mistaken may be. Madoka is certainly omniPRESENT, though, and that implies atleast virtual omniscience.

There are plenty of way to confirm omniscience through narration, story, plot.

Elaborate. If you remove the ability of characters to say "you're omniscient/I'm omniscient", then we need to rely on an omniscient narrator or some sort of perfect perspective. Madoka has no narrator, so that's out. How would you relay that Madoka's omniscient? She shows transcendent knowledge and wisdom that's seriously PUSHING possible omniscience. Unless she tells us absolutely everything, ever, there'll always be an unstated thing that she might not know by virtue of the narrative never bringing it up. It's like the opposite of the God of the Gaps argument.

Yes, not everything need to be confirmed. However, basing your arguement on single character declaration is not sound when there are no other corresponding support exist within the story. Nor is it logical to deny the possibility that the character may be incorrect.

You're gonna have to give me a break here, Madokami doesn't even have a full ten minutes of screentime in the original anime production. There's not a lot to work with. She claims to be omniscient. She acts omniscient. She has a stronger sense of perception and knowledge than she previously did, to the point of knowing the fates of all Magical Girls, the memories of all her own lifetimes, and being witness to everything Homura has ever done for her. And there's no indication in that episode that there's something she DOESN'T know.

Why, then, should we doubt her omniscience other than personal bias (Rebellion aside)?

As for how Homura surprised Madoka. Homura was always an anomaly in the time stream, allowing to keep her memory, witnessing universe being reformed. Also at the end of the movie Homura was also not following the norm Magic girl to Witch process due to QB's intervention. It is questionable at that point whether even she falls in either of those categories. Without knowing exactly what Madoka's omniscience entails, I am not sure how one can say what kind of blind spot that the system may have and what makes sense or not.

I don't know, Homura's time-anomaly didn't keep Madoka from seeing everything about her up to the point of their final conversation in the anime. Despite her time-hopping, Homura's personal, subjective timeline is still linear for her.

But Homura's time magic is the best explanation I've been able to find through all this. Kyubey's intervention doesn't make much sense because...well, the idea that he can specifically block the perception of an entity from outside the universe he knows nothing about outside of hearsay, without even using magic, is absurd on so many points it makes my head spin.

And that's without even conceding the possibility of omniscience; just her demonstrable transcendence.

Also I think its incorrect to compare a cat added for a few frame in the opening to a song chosen, composed, sung specifically for Madoka.

My point is that Urobuchi and Shinbo didn't really supervise it directly; they gave guidelines and didn't really have hands-on with it. Madoka's loneliness might have been part of that, but we can't say for sure, and there's reasonable doubt because, well, PLENTY of anime image songs involve characters singing about subjects contrary from or irrelevant to their usual characters. It's as much a marketing tool as anything else.

Heck, it's usage in the BD credits of episodes 1 and 2 implies the possibility it's meant to be deceptive if anything.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

My hypotheticals have a merit and are reaching for a thematic point of contention you're not even trying to address.

I try, but sometimes your assumptions seem besides the point.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'm not the one who engaged in argument fallacies a page or two back, after all.

I don't think I did that.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Non-sequitor, batman. Homura's had a habit of dismissing possibilities in material besides Rebellion for the sake of holding onto her lifelines before. Such as the fact that she simply can't beat Walpurgis herself, as the most overt one.

She knew the chances of winning were basically zero, but she hoped she could make the miracle possible (QB himself states that she keeps fighting because she hasn't lost hope). It's not the same as dismissing possibilities out of self-convenience or for self-justification.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Other examples include: Several PSP scenarios (canonicity debateable admittedly), some of her behavior in Oriko, such as her reaction to her Hannibal Lecture (btw Oriko called her out as selfish and never got properly rebuked for it. Neener neener :P), and her willingness to resort to the reset button when things become too inconvenient to cope with.

But it's debatable whether all that is canon, right? They never made even an off-hand reference to the events from the Oriko manga in the anime (tv or movies) so I wouldn't put much stock in it. Either way I can't say much since I read Oriko only once and I don't remember much of it.

Which Sayaka calls her on in the movie, by the way. I mean, wow, Homura is willing to negate entire timelines before she knows the outcome FOR SURE, and you don't think she's willing to dismiss information that contradicts her biases?

We don't know if she doesn't know the autcome, right? Her cryptic comments about becoming enemies when the Maju are eradicated and whatnot hints that she does know something. To what extent, it's impossible to know at this point.

Satisfaction falls under the pursuit of self-interest,

I think self-interest requires that the intent is motivated by a self-serving motivation. Homura's motivation is to make Madoka happy, not to feel the satisfaction of making Madoka happy. The latter may be a result of the former, but it's not the motivation. If this is selfishness, then basically everything you do is selfish, and this argument is pointless.

Says the guy who defines terms in such a way that he can't be wrong, if he defines them at all.

It's not my intention. Besides, I could say the same to you.

[AuraTwilight]

I try, but sometimes your assumptions seem besides the point.

I admit to going on tangents. Some of them, though, were attempts at gauging frame of mind so I could ask things without making an ass of myself.

I don't think I did that.

Even if you didn't, your previous post was pretty rude and I think I deserved better than that even if you don't have any respect for my arguments. C'mon, bro.

She knew the chances of winning were basically zero, but she hoped she could make the miracle possible (QB himself states that she keeps fighting because she hasn't lost hope). It's not the same as dismissing possibilities out of self-convenience or self-justification.

But it is the same as dismissing contradictory information. I didn't bring her motives for doing so into the equation.

And, of course, dismissing a possibility on the HOPE that it's the real Madoka really only helps the parallel.

But it's debatable whether all that is canon, right? They never made even an off-hand reference to the events from the Oriko manga in the anime (tv or movies) so I wouldn't put much stock in it. Either way I can say much since I read Oriko only once and I don't remember much of it.

Well I find Rebellion's canonicity debatable, so I can't fault you there. :P Oriko was released after the anime's conclusion so they couldn't really reference it regardless of canon.

Oriko does blatantly call Homura selfish, though, because of her willingness to protect a single person no matter the damage it could cause. Homura never rebukes her. If nothing else, the idea of Homura being selfish is officially on the table.

We don't know if she doesn't know the autcome, right? Her cryptic comments about becoming enemies when the Maju are eradicated and whatnot hints that she does know something. To what extent, it's impossible to know at this point.

She tries to reset time in the dream world as soon as Sayaka says something she's not comfortable with. Sayaka intercepts with her sword. That's the scene I was referring to, for clarity. Homura didn't know crap, at that point, and was willing to abandon things anyway out of impulse.

I think self-interest requires that the intent is motivated by a self-serving motivation. Homura's motivation is to make Madoka happy, not to feel the satisfaction of making Madoka happy. The latter may be a result of the former, but it's not the motivation. If that's selfishness, then basically everything you do is selfish, and this argument is pointless.

Fair enough. I brought up Ethical Egoism for the sake of illustrating my point better but I don't personally believe in it. I would say that Homura's motivation could be better stated to involve herself more than that though, simply because she wished to be the one to protect Madoka, and not for Madoka to be alive and happy, for instance.

As much as she wants to protect Madoka and make her happy, she wants to be the one to do it, and atleast initially when she made her wish, she wanted to change who she was to realize that. She wants to define herself as the person who protected and saved Madoka, and stop being the weak person who had to depend on her, and that does speak of self-interest.

I don't deny that she has a tremendous and selfless love for Madoka, but things never being purely selfless, and having hidden or subtle selfish sides to them, is a theme of the series. You can't rightfully deny that. It comes up in almost every wish made in the damn franchise.

It's not my intention. Besides, I could say the same to you.

Excuse me, I defined multiple terms I used as amiably as possible. I even offered a few definitions for terms you didn't, just so I could get some clarity here, and none of them were designed in such a way that they were unassailable. I even link-dropped in an attempt to clarify my grounds for challenging Homura's supposed selflessness.

You can accuse me of a few things in this argument, but dishonestly defining my terms when pressured to is NOT one of them, and if you feel I haven't defined any important things properly in my arguments, please ask and I will rectify.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Even if you didn't, your previous post was pretty rude and I think I deserved better than that even if you don't have any respect for my arguments. C'mon, bro.

I admit as much and I apologize.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

And, of course, dismissing a possibility on the HOPE that it's the real Madoka really only helps the parallel.

But there's no prof that she's dismissing information. To begin with, Urobuchi isn't the sort of writer to put that much thought into his characters, and more importantly, that scene seems to have a totally different aim. I mean, before Homura has this chat with Madoka, she was working on the assumption that Madoka was fake, but after talking with her, she comes to the conclusion that only the real Madoka can be so kind and compassionate. To base her conclusion on such a thing is really childish and irrational, but that's why I think she's not actively trying to dismiss any information; she's just going with her feelings.

This impression of hers could have been totally wrong, of course, but that's besides that point.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Oriko does blatantly call Homura selfish, though, because of her willingness to protect a single person no matter the damage it could cause. Homura never rebukes her. If nothing else, the idea of Homura being selfish is officially on the table.

It wouldn't surprise me that Homura sees herself as selfish.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

She tries to reset time in the dream world as soon as Sayaka says something she's not comfortable with. Sayaka intercepts with her sword. That's the scene I was referring to, for clarity. Homura didn't know crap, at that point, and was willing to abandon things anyway out of impulse.

She was trying to stop time, not reset it. And considering that Sayaka seemed like an unknown element at this point, stopping time to escape and regroup seemed like a wise choice.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Fair enough. I brought up Ethical Egoism for the sake of illustrating my point better but I don't personally believe in it. I would say that Homura's motivation could be better stated to involve herself more than that though, simply because she wished to be the one to protect Madoka, and not for Madoka to be alive and happy, for instance.

Homura's wish was pretty self-centered. That much is true. But I think that journey ended in "timeline 3," when she was at the edge of becoming a witch and basically gave up on her wish. Madoka's request at that point gives Homura a new purpose. From then on I think the Homura that wanted to save Madoka for self-validation was replaced with the Homura that just wanted to fulfill Madoka's request. The movie seems to be an off-shot of this idea.

Anyway, at this point I don't think Homura gives a damn about self-validation.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I don't deny that she has a tremendous and selfless love for Madoka, but things never being purely selfless, and having hidden or subtle selfish sides to them, is a theme of the series. You can't rightfully deny that. It comes up in almost every wish made in the damn franchise.

Well, like I said, Homura's wish did have a selfish motivator, but later on when she's acting on Madoka's request, I think there's a sort of inversion going on. Self-validation, imo, isn't important anymore, and the only selfish desire left in her heart is wanting to be with Madoka. Yet, from the point when she decides that she's going to fulfill Madoka's request no matter what, her relationship with Madoka begins to deteriorate to the point that in the last time line Homura is almost alien to her. By honoring Madoka's request, Homura's losing Madoka, but Homura won't give up. If that's not a selfless sacrifice, I don't know what it is.

[AuraTwilight]

I admit as much and I apologize.

I sincerely appreciate it. Thank you.

But there's no prof that she's dismissing information. To begin with, Urobuchi isn't the sort of writer to put that much thought into his characters, and more importantly, that scene seems to have a totally different aim. I mean, before Homura has this chat with Madoka, she was working on the assumption that Madoka was fake, but after talking with her, she comes to the conclusion that only the real Madoka can be so kind and compassionate. To base her conclusion on such a thing is really childish and irrational, but that's why I think she's not actively trying to dismiss any information; she's just going with her feelings.

This impression of hers could have been totally wrong, of course, but that's besides that point.

Urgh. "Dismissing information" might not be the best wording. I struggle with english sometimes and I'm starting to see that I might've worded this poorly from the outset. What I'm trying to convey is that Homura is biased towards the conclusions that are preferable over the ones that don't fit her worldview. Madoka!Construct suited her cynicism, but such a kind and compassionate Madoka, she wanted to believe is real. It's less that she KNOWS Madoka is real, here, so much that she NEEDS her to be.

Does this help?

It wouldn't surprise me that Homura sees herself as selfish.

Indeed. Can we just agree that the question of Homura's selfishness, and it's possible ambiguity, is part of the point?

She was trying to stop time, not reset it. And considering that Sayaka seemed like an unknown element at this point, stopping time to escape and regroup seemed like a wise choice.

Either way, she was running from the situation. Sayaka's point is valid, I think.

Homura's wish was pretty self-centered. That much is true. But I think that journey ended in "timeline 3," when she was at the edgy of becoming a witch and basically gave up on her wish. Madoka's request at that point gives Homura a new purpose. From then on I think the Homura that wanted to save Madoka for self-validation was replaced with the Homura that just wanted to fulfill Madoka's request. The movie seems to be an off-shot of this idea.

Anyway, at this point I don't think Homura gives a damn about self-validation anymore.

I think there's a mix, at the very least. It's hard to consciously, or even subconsciously, shift gears like that, after all. While there is a motive-shift, she's still using Timeline 3 Madoka's request as a justification for actions that Madoka wouldn't accept (such as trying to kill Sayaka). At that point, she's not so much honoring Madoka's wishes so much as crusading in her name.

I don't think Homura's central motive really changed here. It just got revigored through a different lense.

Well, like I said, Homura's wish did have a selfish motivator, but later on when she's acting on Madoka's request, I think there's a sort of inversion going on. Self-validation, imo, isn't important anymore then, and the only selfish desire left in her heart is wanting to be with Madoka. Yet, from the point when she decides that she's going to fulfill Madoka's request no matter what, her relationship with Madoka begins to deteriorate to the point that in the last time line Homura is almost alien to her. By honoring Madoka's request, Homura's losing Madoka, but Homura won't give up. If that's not a selfless sacrifice, I don't know what it is.

You're right. There's a strong Selflessness here, I just don't think it's absolutely pure. For instance, when Madoka's about to contract, Homura bemoans that it's all been for nothing. And Kyubey himself says that if she ever gives up, she'll become a Witch.

After a point, she has to keep doing this for her own good or she'll fall apart. Madoka became so central to her personality that being motivated for Madoka, and being motivated by self-interest, are practically one and the same.

Is that selfish or selfless? Is that love? That's kind of outside of the scope of the discussion, but does my above couple paragraphs line up?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What I'm trying to convey is that Homura is biased towards the conclusions that are preferable over the ones that don't fit her worldview. Madoka!Construct suited her cynicism, but such a kind and compassionate Madoka, she wanted to believe is real. It's less that she KNOWS Madoka is real, here, so much that she NEEDS her to be.

Does this help?

It helps but I disagree. The point here seems to be that she just knew, not that she wanted to believe, either consciously or unconsciously. The fact that she could tell it's like a fairy tale thing, which kinda fits considering half the movie is irrelevant pandering.

Anyway, I think you're thinking a bit too hard for a movie that doesn't seem to have such complex characterization and plot.

Indeed. Can we just agree that the question of Homura's selfishness, and it's possible ambiguity, is part of the point?

But what point? I think Homura's opinion of herself is irrelevant to our point, right? As for Oriko. She's a mastermind type, so...

Either way, she was running from the situation. Sayaka's point is valid, I think.

Sayaka's point is “Trying to run away to your own personal time, again? That’s the worst thing about you; how much you depend on your magic.”

Like I said, you're thinking way too hard for a movie that tries to keep thing very simple for the most part.

I think there's a mix, at the very least. It's hard to consciously, or even subconsciously, shift gears like that, after all. While there is a motive-shift, she's still using Timeline 3 Madoka's request as a justification for actions that Madoka wouldn't accept (such as trying to kill Sayaka). At that point, she's not so much honoring Madoka's wishes so much as crusading in her name.

Did she really try to kill Sayaka. I think that's ambiguous. More importantly, Madoka's request is her motivation, not justification. She's not trying to justify herself. She knows what she's doing is wrong and has no delusions about it. As for whether she's honoring Madoka's request or crusading in her name... I struggle to see the difference, especially in her situation. She's working on the assumption that playing nice won't get her much results, and she has valid reasons to think that way.

I don't think Homura's central motive really changed here. It just got revigored through a different lense.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

You're right. There's a strong Selflessness here, I just don't think it's absolutely pure. For instance, when Madoka's about to contract, Homura bemoans that it's all been for nothing. And Kyubey himself says that if she ever gives up, she'll become a Witch.

After a point, she has to keep doing this for her own good or she'll fall apart. Madoka became so central to her personality that being motivated for Madoka, and being motivated by self-interest, are practically one and the same.

But she doesn't care about that. That's why she didn't want to reset time after she failed to beat WN in the last time line. She didn't want to make things worse for Madoka, even if it meant she herself was going to die or become a witch. She was being irrational, of course, since if she became a witch, things would get worse for Madoka anyway. Besides, there was still the little problem if WN. That's beside the point though.

[Kazu-kun]

Sorry for the double post, before hitting the sack I wanted to post this.

This is a piece of dialog from the tv series:

Madoka: "A friend of mine is in a tough situation... What she's doing and saying probably isn't wrong... But the more she tries to do what's right, the worse it gets..."
Junko: "That happens a lot. It sucks, but you can't expect a happy ending just by doing what's right all the time. Actually, the more people get stubborn and insist that they're in the right, the farther away happiness gets..."
Madoka: "It's not fair if you can't be happy even though you're not doing the wrong things."
Junko: "Yeah."
Madoka: "What do you think I should do?"
Junko: "That's not a problem that can be solved by someone not involved."
Madoka: "..."
Junko: "Do you want to solve this, even if it's not the nicest way to do it?"
Madoka: "Yeah."
Junko: "All you have to do is make a mistake for her. Somebody has to be in the wrong to balance out her need to be in the right."
Madoka: "Do something wrong?"
Junko: "Tell a white lie, or run away from something scary. Sometimes you realize that was actually the best choice in the end. Sometimes when you hit a dead end with no real alternatives, making a big mistake is an option."
Madoka: "But do you think she'll understand that I'm doing it for her own good?"
Junko: "She may or may not. Especially at first. I told you it might not be the nicest way to do it. But would you rather give up on her, or give her the wrong idea about you?"

Now let's add Homura's movie plot to the mix:

Homura wants to give Madoka a happy ending, "but you can't expect a happy ending just by doing what's right all the time."

Homura is determined to protect Madoka, "even if it's not the nicest way to do it."

Madoka is determined to sacrifice herself for the greater good, so Homura "has to be in the wrong to balance out [Madoka's] need to be in the right."

Homura's actions may be wrong in some sense, but "sometimes you realize that was actually the best choice in the end."

She warns Madoka they may become enemies someday because she doesn't know if Madoka will ever come to understand her choice. Will she? "She may or may not. Especially at first. [...] it might not be the nicest way to do it. But would [Homura] rather give up on her, or give [Madoka] the wrong idea about [her]?" Obviously, Homura will never give up on Madoka, so she must accept the latter as a possible consequence.

Lol It fits too well.

[KoiYuki]

Too lazy to read pretty much most of the last two pages, got too long for me. But I feel the need to point a few things out, as far as I see them:

1. Homura kind of doesn't have a choice but to keep the universe/Madoka her hostage. Let's just say she let Madoka take her away; what's stopping Kyuubei from just catching Madoka again? And Homura wouldn't be there to stop it. Of course, that means that she'll pretty much have to keep this up until the heat death of the universe, unless she magically found some dumb girl to wish that Kyuubei would never capture Madoka (again) (and I don't even know when that could possibly take place. not before the movie, then it wouldn't happen at all. not during, it's in a barrier. and not after, because it's still in a barrier, just a different kind.).

2. Madoka saying she wanted a normal life with everyone being justification for Homura's 'betrayal' (or whatever you want to call it) doesn't quite pan out. This Madoka she was talking to is not the same Madoka she knew. This Madoka does not have the same experiences at all; she's never seen witches, she's never watched her friends die, she's never been told about the truth of the puella magi system. It's not fair to use that to justify what Homura did (even though I feel there's not really a different option at this point), because she just isn't the same Madoka. She's a happy-dream-world-affected Madoka. I'm thinking that even if she wanted to be with everyone (I'm sure she did), she also wanted her wish to stay the way it was, because she had no idea what Homura would do or if it would work out, and she clearly didn't want Homura to do what she did.

3. Madoka shouldn't be able to be captured either, in all fairness. Her wish was to defeat all witches with her own hands, making her everywhere, everytime where there's a witch. This defeats what I said in the first paragraph, but... But basically, even if she took Homura away and Kyuubey captured her again, she should still be able to get to other MGs when they're about to become witches. So I guess what Homura did wasn't necessary in that regard.

Come to think of it, the Madoka in Homura's world also isn't the Madoka she knew, and not really what Madoka wanted either. Now she hasn't grown up with her closest friends. She shouldn't really even act like the same person, but I'll ignore that for now. Why did she even have to take away all of Madoka's memories and replace them anyway? Why not just keep it the same up until Kyuubey came into their lives, and then change it?

[Wanderer]

Regarding omniscience.

I just rewatched the ending of the 2nd movie.

"As I am now, I can see everything that ever has or will happen. Both the universes that could have been and the universes that might one day be. All of them."
"今の私は過去も未来も全て見えるの。かつてあったかもしれない宇宙も、いつかありえるかもしれない宇宙を。みんな。"

Because of the bolded part, I'm not sure that Godoka would predict what Homura did, exactly. What she would know is that it's a possible timeline, whatever that really means.

Although, I do find the idea that Madoka did foresee Homura's actions, yet did not avoid them, to be interesting.

Also, in their EP12 farewell Homura was never convinced that Madoka really wanted to become a god. The first thing she said when she learned what would happen to Madoka was about how unjust it was for her. Madoka started saying things to Homura to comfort her, but Homura helplessly and desperately questioned everything the whole time until Madoka's "time was up".

---------

When in the movie Homura turned herself into a witch to save Madoka, the despair she used was her belief that she'd never see Madoka again. It's very interesting to me because she let herself become overcome with selfish grief (her belief that by her sacrifice she would never see Madoka again) in order to accomplish her selfless motive.

She intentionally had to focus on the despair of her sacrifice rather than the hope it produced. My mind keeps coming back to if this experience caused her to change- to fully "appreciate" that side of herself, so to speak.

---------

Still trying to understand how Homura godified (I wish I understood more of the Japanese at that part). Does it have something to do with Kyuubei's experiment inside Homura's soul gem? Or does it have to do with Homura's original wish to redo her meeting with Madoka, as Madoka's protector (but if that's the case, why did Homura have to wait for Godoka to come to her)?

Some other explanation?

Originally Posted by KoiYuki

Come to think of it, the Madoka in Homura's world also isn't the Madoka she knew, and not really what Madoka wanted either. Now she hasn't grown up with her closest friends. She shouldn't really even act like the same person, but I'll ignore that for now. Why did she even have to take away all of Madoka's memories and replace them anyway? Why not just keep it the same up until Kyuubey came into their lives, and then change it?

Yeah I was thinking the same thing today. It really makes it seem like Madoka is just Homura's plaything.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Although, I do find the idea that Madoka did foresee Homura's actions, yet did not avoid them, to be interesting.

Madoka was surprised and scared shitless when Homura went all Homucifer on her, so I'm no sure I buy that she knew it was going to happen, let alone let it happen.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's pretty much the crux of it. Up until this point, Homura had valid justifications, such as Madoka acting in ignorance, or previous-timeline sentiments providing more informed justification.

But the Madoka who became a goddess was the most well-informed, emotionally-and-mentally balanced, and level-headed of all her incarnations at that point.

I think what I bolded is debatable. This is a Madoka that had dealt with a crushing personal loss (Sayaka's death, likely made more painful by how harsh Sayaka's final words to Madoka were), and a truly traumatizing experience (watch Mami literally get eaten).

One could argue that the most emotionally-and-mentally balanced, and the most level-headed, Madoka, is one that never had to deal with losses and traumatic events like this.

And is this not the Madoka that Homura spoke to in that stretch of dialogue that has been quoted many times on this thread?


So I think it's debatable what's the "most perfect manifestation of Madoka's uninhibited will as there could ever be".

Homura, who fell in love with Quality X of Madoka Kaname, is holding onto her by suffocating that very same Quality. She's desperately insisting on holding onto a shell even if it means killing what made Madoka beautiful in the first place.

It's fucking disgusting.

I definitely understand why you'd see it as disgusting. At a certain conceptual level, it is disgusting.

But I also find it psychologically fascinating.

There's a clear internal contradiction to Homura's approach to Madoka, and yet, it makes a certain degree of sense.

1. Homura loves Madoka because of Madoka's naturally caring and friendly nature, as well as her altruistic and selfless heroism.

2. Hence, Homura wants to protect Madoka.

3. Protecting Madoka requires Homura to actively oppose Madoka's caring and friendly nature, as well as her altruistic and selfless heroism.

It's a beautiful contradiction. Beautiful because each section makes perfect sense on its own, but once you add all three together, you have a total contradiction.


It should be noted that this contradiction was in play in the TV series. Much of Homura's dialogue to Madoka is intended to make Madoka less caring, and less heroic. While I understand why many of Homura's biggest fans are so against what she did in this movie, I also find it a bit strange how some find it so out-of-character for Homura with days to think about it after the fact.

Back in the TV series, Homura was already walking down the path of squeezing the heroism out of Madoka. This movie simply takes it to a greater, but arguably logical, extreme.

As I keep saying, it is selfish by definition. Acting for the sake of others out of love and compassion is still selfish if you're doing it for what YOU want. She is selfish because she gains something from it and wants that something. That's it. There's no moral judgment in calling Homura's action selfish; that moral judgment comes from other aspects about the action, like its invasiveness.

I'm not sure if selfish vs. selfless is necessarily the best way to look at it.

Here's the compelling duality between Madoka and Homura, in my view:

1. Madoka basically cares about everything. She has people she cares extra about, but she loves the whole world. She puts the entire world before herself.

2. Homura cares about Madoka. She cares little about the world in general (in fact, there's even reason to think that Homura hates the world - Some of her dialogue in Timeline 3 is suggestive here). Homura puts Madoka ahead of the entire world.


You have a real ying/yang thing here. The block spot in the white section represents Madoka caring about everything, except herself. The white spot in the block section represents Homura's dissatisfaction with the world, except Madoka. Complete inversion. Total mirror images. Total opposite sides of the same coin. Love believably becomes the basis for total opposition between the person who loves, and the person who is loved.

[Hagoshod]

>Trying to argue Homura's choice of completely breaking the original ending to fulfill her own desires isn't selfish.

Wow you guys are pretty desperate.

[Kazu-kun]

lol We don't even know what are Homura's true desires.

[AuraTwilight]

It helps but I disagree. The point here seems to be that she just knew, not that she wanted to believe, either consciously or unconsciously. The fact that she could tell it's like a fairy tale thing, which kinda fits considering half the movie is irrelevant pandering.

Anyway, I think you're thinking a bit too hard for a movie that doesn't seem to have such complex characterization and plot.

Well I was GONNA give it the benefit of the doubt but if you want to just say it was bad writing I'm happy with that too. :3

But what point? I think Homura's opinion of herself is irrelevant to our point, right? As for Oriko. She's a mastermind type, so...

As in, like, a series theme. Like how the end of Rebellion sets up for a clash between Homura's and Madoka's ideals; it necessarily has to bring up the integrity of Homura's motivations because Madoka's are comparatively unassailable in their morality.

Did she really try to kill Sayaka. I think that's ambiguous.

I should've clarified; I meant in the anime run.

Too lazy to read pretty much most of the last two pages, got too long for me.

Haha, sorry! It always gets like this with Kazu-kun and I, I apologize.

1. Homura kind of doesn't have a choice but to keep the universe/Madoka her hostage. Let's just say she let Madoka take her away; what's stopping Kyuubei from just catching Madoka again?

Use her new god powers to permakill Kyubey or something. Ascend with Madoka so that they share the responsibility. There were probably other, better options, but Homura's vision was clouded.

Also, in their EP12 farewell Homura was never convinced that Madoka really wanted to become a god. The first thing she said when she learned what would happen to Madoka was about how unjust it was for her. Madoka started saying things to Homura to comfort her, but Homura helplessly and desperately questioned everything the whole time until Madoka's "time was up".

I don't think anyone really claimed otherwise; rather that Homura managed to cope at some point during the timeskip, going from how she was when she first entered the new world, to when she found Tatsuya.

Although, I do find the idea that Madoka did foresee Homura's actions, yet did not avoid them, to be interesting.

It would be in Madoka's character to let the free will of the Puella Magi run uninhibited even if she disagrees with it, hehe.

Still trying to understand how Homura godified (I wish I understood more of the Japanese at that part). Does it have something to do with Kyuubei's experiment inside Homura's soul gem? Or does it have to do with Homura's original wish to redo her meeting with Madoka, as Madoka's protector (but if that's the case, why did Homura have to wait for Godoka to come to her)?

Some other explanation?

My current theory is that it was her wish. Maybe it couldn't kick in until Madoka entered the universe,so that the wish could be like "Woaaaah buttload of mega-karma and Homura's directly connected to it. Initiate god mode."

Madoka was surprised and scared shitless when Homura went all Homucifer on her, so I'm no sure I buy that she knew it was going to happen, let alone let it happen.

If I might bring up some fanfiction-y-ness for the sake of thought experiment: Even with the revelation of Homulilly, proponents of the Homura-as-Walpurgis theory never really died down, just insisting that Homulilly was the base witch that fused with others. One coloring of this theory is that at the end of the 11th episode, Homura would've otherwise Witched out, become Walpurgisnacht, then gone back in time and caused the events of Timeline 1, and existing at that same point in all timelines; Homura could never defeat it herself because it was like a puzzle boss specifically keyed against her, and to give Homura despair and target Madoka.

It was a self-fulfilling loop. Eventually Homura had to Witch out and cause the cycle in the first place.

The theory goes on to say that Madoka's ascension to divinity directly broke causality, and her mere resolve to make such a wish was enough for her to ruin the timeloop in a paradoxical manner.

Why do I bring this up? Well...what if the same thing was true for Homura's ascension? Maybe Madokami could see everything....except this one specific action, which by Homura's choosing to take it, broke linear time?

When you invoke deities, you don't have to really worry about logical paradoxes, afterall.

I don't know, just an interesting thought experiment. What do you guys think?

I think what I bolded is debatable. This is a Madoka that had dealt with a crushing personal loss (Sayaka's death, likely made more painful by how harsh Sayaka's final words to Madoka were), and a truly traumatizing experience (watch Mami literally get eaten).

One could argue that the most emotionally-and-mentally balanced, and the most level-headed, Madoka, is one that never had to deal with losses and traumatic events like this.

And is this not the Madoka that Homura spoke to in that stretch of dialogue that has been quoted many times on this thread?


So I think it's debatable what's the "most perfect manifestation of Madoka's uninhibited will as there could ever be".

The Madoka of the dream world falls under the "ignorance" qualifier though. I made "well-informed" an attribute for a reason. :3

You do have a point about Madoka's possible emotional trauma, but she doesn't seem very traumatized in the last episode. We are clearly MEANT to think that she finally and truly found her resolve.

And when Madokami ascends and assimilates the personhood and memories of all Madokas ever, her opinion doesn't seem to change. And if Godoka isn't the most perfect manifestation of Madoka's will, well...I don't know what to say.

I definitely understand why you'd see it as disgusting. At a certain conceptual level, it is disgusting.

But I also find it psychologically fascinating.

I concur. I do want to see how this is resolved and it's really interesting...

But I literally threw up when I finished the film.

It should be noted that this contradiction was in play in the TV series. Much of Homura's dialogue to Madoka is intended to make Madoka less caring, and less heroic. While I understand why many of Homura's biggest fans are so against what she did in this movie, I also find it a bit strange how some find it so out-of-character for Homura with days to think about it after the fact.

Back in the TV series, Homura was already walking down the path of squeezing the heroism out of Madoka. This movie simply takes it to a greater, but arguably logical, extreme.

You're right about this. What some people argue makes it out-of-character is just how at peace with it Homura seems to have become at the end of the anime. Her failure to actually be so in Rebellion seems like a retcon.

I would also add that there's different qualifiers involved in Homura's TV actions and Rebellion. For instance, Madoka's ignorance, or Madoka's timeline 3 request, or the fact that if she contracts her Witch will destroy the entirety of planet Earth...

After a point she kind of has to keep Madoka from contracting, or go all Oriko and just cap the girl with a bullet between the eyes (which Homura would never do, leaving her only the one option).

With the Madokami kidnapping there's...the possibility of Madoka regretting it, and Kyubey trying to kidnap her. Both of which have issues I've already talked about, and again she may have had better options because Double God seriously you guys what.

I'm not sure if selfish vs. selfless is necessarily the best way to look at it.

Here's the compelling duality between Madoka and Homura, in my view:

1. Madoka basically cares about everything. She has people she cares extra about, but she loves the whole world. She puts the entire world before herself.

2. Homura cares about Madoka. She cares little about the world in general (in fact, there's even reason to think that Homura hates the world - Some of her dialogue in Timeline 3 is suggestive here). Homura puts Madoka ahead of the entire world.


You have a real ying/yang thing here. The block spot in the white section represents Madoka caring about everything, except herself. The white spot in the block section represents Homura's dissatisfaction with the world, except Madoka. Complete inversion. Total mirror images. Total opposite sides of the same coin. Love believably becomes the basis for total opposition between the person who loves, and the person who is loved.

Yea, that was pretty much part of the point I was trying to get across to Kazu-kun; that selfishness and selflessness aren't entirely distinct inside Homura.

Or Madoka, for that matter.

>Trying to argue Homura's choice of completely breaking the original ending to fulfill her own desires isn't selfish.

Wow you guys are pretty desperate.

Haha, I know, right?

lol We don't even know what are Homura's true desires.

How do you figure? "Keep Madoka safe and happy and human" certainly seems to be one of them, and "I'll give you the happy world you wished for", etc.

We certainly know what desires she has. Are they not 'true', and what basis do you have for thinking that?