Fate/Zero - Episode 1 Discussion / Poll

[AnimeNoob]

I hope this is as cool as it seems! ALot was crammed into this first one. Been ages since I watched f/sn may have to re watch to jog my memory,or does it not really matter?

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by AnimeNoob

I hope this is as cool as it seems! ALot was crammed into this first one. Been ages since I watched f/sn may have to re watch to jog my memory,or does it not really matter?

It doesn't really matter. FSN anime doesn't even make that much of a difference. Just watch/enjoy fate/zero.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by AnimeNoob

I hope this is as cool as it seems! ALot was crammed into this first one. Been ages since I watched f/sn may have to re watch to jog my memory,or does it not really matter?

Don't think it matters, after all it is a prequel and not sequel.

[Clarste]

Regarding the relics as a necessary part of the summoning: I don't think Kariya had one in this episode either. It seems to be something that the established families do to tilt the odds in their favor, and not technically needed. As Kiritsugu says in the episode, the summoning ritual is just a formality: the Grail itself does all the work. So as long as you have the mark on your hand you're pretty much guaranteed a successful summoning no matter what else happens.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Regarding the relics as a necessary part of the summoning: I don't think Kariya had one in this episode either. It seems to be something that the established families do to tilt the odds in their favor, and not technically needed. As Kiritsugu says in the episode, the summoning ritual itself is just a formality: the Grail itself does all the work. So as long as you have the mark on your hand you're pretty much guaranteed a successful summoning no matter what else happens.

Correct. All the relics do is direct the Grail to summon a specific Servant.

[com_gwp]

Like quite a number in these forums, my experience with the F/SN franchise is limited to both the original adaptation as well as the UBW movie, with a little touch and go on the original VN. Didn't particularly find it great, and found it pretty average.

So here's my thoughts on this first episode: pleasantly surprised. The impression the original series gave me was always that for such an epic premise of a Holy Grail war, the story itself never seemed to rise to the same heights it set for itself. But with F/Z, this first episode showed a setup that underlines the significance of the events to occur.

I felt this more clearly in the choice of the masters, where in F/SN, masters seemed almost conveniently (almost haphazardly) chosen. F/Z showed how most were already planning years in advance of the war.

Now of course, I had little experience with the franchise, so I have no ideas if there is any underlying reason for this. But F/Z seems to be the one thing F/SN wasn't for me, the one part which I found lacking: Epic, from what came before the war began, and hopefully, what comes from here on out. Consider me excited for more.

Edit: Not to mention, the shifting perspective. I love series that do this, because it really gives the sense that the story is bigger than any single character. I enjoy how the first episode set it up such that every master was clearly shown to have their own motivations and beliefs, which hopefully will get expanded on as we go on into the series.

[AnimeNoob]

Cool! Thanks for quick response guys, will sit back, relax and enjoy haha

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Regarding the relics as a necessary part of the summoning: I don't think Kariya had one in this episode either. It seems to be something that the established families do to tilt the odds in their favor, and not technically needed. As Kiritsugu says in the episode, the summoning ritual is just a formality: the Grail itself does all the work. So as long as you have the mark on your hand you're pretty much guaranteed a successful summoning no matter what else happens.

Kariya HAD one. Provided by Zouken.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by com_gwp

Now of course, I had little experience with the franchise, so I have no ideas if there is any underlying reason for this..

The reasons are actually hinted at in this episode, if you were paying attention. The war happens every 60 years, so everyone has an entire generation to prepare and think about what didn't work last time. Tokiomi literally spent his entire life preparing for this war. Note that Zouken is planning on using Sakura's future children, not Sakura herself.

However, the next war happens only 10 years after this one, when the next generation still hasn't grown up. Rin's still a kid, no matter what she thinks of herself, and obviously Zouken's plan to use Sakura's children wouldn't have time to bear fruit. And the Einzberns didn't have time to prepare another combat specialist like Kiritsugu. Everyone was caught off guard because the cycle got screwed up, so they're all using emergency measures.

Not that having a reason undermines the basic point though. The war is more professional this time around, and better suited for epicness.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Regarding the relics as a necessary part of the summoning: I don't think Kariya had one in this episode either.

Zouken hands Kariya a relic, so he definitely did have one.

[com_gwp]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Not that having a reason undermines the basic point though. The war is more professional this time around, and better suited for epicness.

I understand the points you're bringing up here and noticed them myself too, but wasn't this prequel written years after the orginal F/SN came out? In that case I still chalk up the mismatched cast and setting to the original writers.

Unless F/SN already clearly stated these reasons from before in the original VN, then please forget anything I said.

That said, it WAS a VN, so I guess I should blame the medium for the underaged cast?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by com_gwp

Unless F/SN already clearly stated these reasons from before in the original VN, then please forget anything I said.

That said, it WAS a VN, so I guess I should blame the medium for the underaged cast?

FSN did clearly state that it was unusual for another war to begin so quickly after the previous one.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Not that it necessarily means a whole lot, but Kyubey is male.

Did they even state that anywhere at all? Or are you just basing it off the pronoun used to address him?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Rin and Shirou formed a partnership, not terribly different than what we seem to be getting with Rin's father and Kirei here. So of course Rin wasn't trying to kill Shirou. It wasn't because she was "unprofessional". It was because it was part of her overall strategy, just like Kirei and Tokiomi have a mutually supportive strategy of their own.

Yes, she also grew fond of Shirou, but it's not like two masters working together (at least for a time) is necessarily unprofessional or bad strategy.

It's very much different. Tokiomi knows full well that Kirei is going to be completely subservient to him and that Kirei has not a reason for the grail himself. He also knows about Kirei's skill and usefulness. Rin helped Shirou out when he had nothing of value to offer in return and would only drag her down. You may think as you please but Tokiomi Tohsaka would have killed Shirou then and there unlike his daughter.

Part of the issue, of course, was that Rin was already very fond of Shirou. She used up her most important jewel to save his life after all.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Even professionals are allowed to make mistakes.

No they aren't. But I get what you mean. What you are trying to say is better rephrased as "Even professionals do make mistakes." They aren't allowed to, there are serious repercussions when they do, but they do make some because being a professional doesn't mean being perfect.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I am by no means accusing Fate/Zero of sexism (and I'm making this reply primarily to make this clear).

I just think it would have been nice to have at least one female master. Not for any reasons of "equality" but simply for the sake of variety in and of itself. That's all. It's certainly no big deal. This anime is still likely to be one of the best of the year.

Clearly most people on this thread disagree with me on the gender point, and that's fine.

I didn't accuse you of accusing the show of sexism, it was just the easiest way to put it across that forcing a woman in a show just to bring variety when what the show did go with is already working very well is akin to forcefully breaking something that's already working for no real gain. AvianWing put it well unlike myself

Originally Posted by AvianWing

I wouldn't mind a kickass female master, either, and I think it's kinda condescending to say, oh this war is a man's affair. However, introducing female character for the sake of variety is like adding that token black guy to the movies... it's really just an illusion of diversity.

OT:
Some changes they made from the LN:

Spoiler:

Rin wasn't the one who called out to Kariya. It was the other way around - Kariya was trying to break the uncomfortable silence between him and Aoi especially because she seemed rather mellow and he felt anxious about it.

They didn't show Kariya's solemn charge across the town to Matou mansion. It would have been awesome to see his expressions as he stood before the mansion and I would have thought that that was an excellent opportunity to kind of introduce the major landmarks in the town or well the general scenery but oh well, looks like they won't be animating much of that stuff anyway.

They didn't animate the introduction of the Einzbern castle either - not the one in Fuyuki city. T_T, that would have been epic too. Right now, its like they are implying the two castles are one and the same.

And they skipped over the already limited lovey-dovey scenes between Iri and Kiritsugu. It's gonna take the punch away from the pain he feels later on imo.

Zouken didn't give any relic to Kariya in the LN either.

They also skipped the sad remark Kariya made when Sakura says "You're like a different person now, Uncle" and also the best line in the whole LN imo "That is a job for those whom, in the future, are guaranteed of their lives."

Oh and Kotomine Risei was supposed to be the one that said "we've won, Kirei" at Gilgamesh's summoning.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

They also skipped ... and also the best line in the whole LN imo "That is a job for those whom, in the future, are guaranteed of their lives."

That line was in Kariya's thoughts, though, so it would've been hard to include.

[fertygo]

@Forsaken_Infinity
You better a little careful when making comparison to the novel like that (I think you know which one that I meant), they might me just swapping the timing to put those moment, and its will easily fall as spoiler later.

Although its quoted already

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

That line was in Kariya's thoughts, though, so it would've been hard to include.

I know, but a thought in the head isn't impossible to do. Not that I am complaining since most good stuff that goes inside character's head in novels gets lost in anime anyway. There better be a reason for us to bother with the novels at all, after all

@fertygo, I took care to only choose moments that they can't possibly swap in later as they already showed everything else but changed or skipped over minor details in those scenes

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

Did they even state that anywhere at all? Or are you just basing it off the pronoun used to address him?


It's very much different. Tokiomi knows full well that Kirei is going to be completely subservient to him and that Kirei has not a reason for the grail himself. He also knows about Kirei's skill and usefulness. Rin helped Shirou out when he had nothing of value to offer in return and would only drag her down. You may think as you please but Tokiomi Tohsaka would have killed Shirou then and there unlike his daughter.

Part of the issue, of course, was that Rin was already very fond of Shirou. She used up her most important jewel to save his life after all.


No they aren't. But I get what you mean. What you are trying to say is better rephrased as "Even professionals do make mistakes." They aren't allowed to, there are serious repercussions when they do, but they do make some because being a professional doesn't mean being perfect.


I didn't accuse you of accusing the show of sexism, it was just the easiest way to put it across that forcing a woman in a show just to bring variety when what the show did go with is already working very well is akin to forcefully breaking something that's already working for no real gain. AvianWing put it well unlike myself


OT:
Some changes they made from the LN:

Spoiler:

Rin wasn't the one who called out to Kariya. It was the other way around - Kariya was trying to break the uncomfortable silence between him and Aoi especially because she seemed rather mellow and he felt anxious about it.

They didn't show Kariya's solemn charge across the town to Matou mansion. It would have been awesome to see his expressions as he stood before the mansion and I would have thought that that was an excellent opportunity to kind of introduce the major landmarks in the town or well the general scenery but oh well, looks like they won't be animating much of that stuff anyway.

They didn't animate the introduction of the Einzbern castle either - not the one in Fuyuki city. T_T, that would have been epic too. Right now, its like they are implying the two castles are one and the same.

And they skipped over the already limited lovey-dovey scenes between Iri and Kiritsugu. It's gonna take the punch away from the pain he feels later on imo.

Zouken didn't give any relic to Kariya in the LN either.

They also skipped the sad remark Kariya made when Sakura says "You're like a different person now, Uncle" and also the best line in the whole LN imo "That is a job for those whom, in the future, are guaranteed of their lives."

Oh and Kotomine Risei was supposed to be the one that said "we've won, Kirei" at Gilgamesh's summoning.

Weird, in this episode Zouken does say he has prepared a relic for Kariya.

[calorie]

Okay, I'm a bit late but I wanted to watch this the right way, without any rush...

And so Fate/Zero opens in grand fashion; at this point I can't really say I hadn't expected it, but one just has to experience the show in order to realize how high the production values are -- the art quality and the unmistakably serious tone of the story and the dialogues were enthralling.

I don't have any knowledge of the novel but as a fan of the visual novel, I was very pleased. This, indeed, appears to be a faithful adaption of that world and the dark, epic atmosphere resembled that of "Heaven's Feel".

The characters so far have caught my interest, can't say I'd ever felt bored in the slightest by any of the (future) masters' segment. Though of course this probably has more to do with the novel than the anime.

What left the biggest impact on me was the story of poor Sakura-chan. All those memories from the visual novel just flooded back in, only this time her tragedy felt more devastatingly real, with the gruesome images of her torture by the Crest Worms. This in turn, made me sympathize with Kariya for his noble sacrifice and rekindled my hatred for Zouken, bringing it to an even greater level - his anime version looks exceptionally vicious and revolting, so I found that quite easy.

The culmination of the prologue episode with the semi-reveal of the servants was just great. Up until now I haven't given much thought as to who the servants (and their masters) might be so I can tell how much I'm going to enjoy this anime from that aspect alone.

Gilgamesh = totemo kakkoii!

[fertygo]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

@fertygo, I took care to only choose moments that they can't possibly swap in later as they already showed everything else but changed or skipped over minor details in those scenes

Really? I can see that Kariya's line can easily swapped in other moment like in brink of *cough**cough*


dawn

[creb]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree. I don't see any reason why a Rin Tohsaka equivalent would not have worked here for at least one of the seven masters. Rin struck me as reasonably competent and "professional" in Fate/Stay Night. Archer certainly thought very highly of her capabilities, and her ability to know what she's doing.

Now, I respect that many here are tired of teenage female-dominated anime casts, and hence the Fate/Zero masters cast is very refreshing to them. I just personally think that this might be a case of the pendulum swinging too much the other way.

Just my opinion, and this will probably be my last posting on this subject on this thread.

She was just another generic throwaway damsel in distress in Stay/Night, who's only purpose was to be that odd dichotomy of being super competent yet reduced to another member of a harem that the ineffective every-day boy lead has to save through the power of really positive thinking against overwhelming odds. Yes, if it wasn't obvious, I thought Stay/Night was disposably generic, and while I can be entertained by such at times, I almost never find any entertainment in male harem shows.

I, for one, am glad to see a much more mature, and far less otaku pandering approach to the Holy Grail War in Zero. I'm going to assume we have Urobachi Gen to thank for that, as I don't believe he had anything to do with Stay/Night. I'm already squeeing in anticipation. If men squeed.

As far as the pendulum analogy goes, I think it's sad that we're even reduced to thinking these are the two extremes. In my perfect world view, something like this would be the moderate middle, and we'd only be talking about half a pendulum's swing.

But, opinions, you know? Nothing wrong with having your own opinion, and here's to hoping you be able to enjoy this different take on the Holy Grail War.