Current Events in Iran

[Xanithor]

Awesome. This is a journalist reporting in Iraq.

It was interesting that the special forces - who normally take the side of Ahmadinejad's Basij militia - were there with clubs and sticks in their camouflage trousers and their purity white shirts and on this occasion the Iranian military kept them away from Mousavi's men and women.

In fact at one point, Mousavi's supporters were shouting 'thank you, thank you' to the soldiers.

One woman went up to the special forces men, who normally are very brutal with Mr Mousavi's supporters, and said 'can you protect us from the Basij?' He said 'with God's help'.

It was quite extraordinary because it looked as if the military authorities in Tehran have either taken a decision not to go on supporting the very brutal militia - which is always associated with the presidency here - or individual soldiers have made up their own mind that they're tired of being associated with the kind of brutality that left seven dead yesterday - buried, by the way secretly by the police - and indeed the seven or eight students who were killed on the university campus 24 hours earlier.

Quite a lot of policeman are beginning to smile towards the demonstrators of Mr Mousavi, who are insisting there must be a new election because Mr Ahmadinejad wasn't really elected. Quite an extraordinary scene.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Xanithor

Awesome. This is a journalist reporting in Iraq.

Sounds fishy. There aren't photos to prove that the SOF are helping out in the protests.

EDIT : As for my previous comment on the weapons used, most likely G3s. 5.56 x 45 rounds don't sound so bass compared to 7.62 x 51 rounds, in which the latter is used by G3s. I fired a FN MAG and an M16 before, I can tell the difference in the caliber of the bullet just by the sound.

That round is effing big! It is like 3-4 times more likely to kill than an M16 round! Wtf are the police and military thinking?

[bladeofdarkness]

this is getting way off topic
but one point to be made

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

That means had Israel not forced them into inhuman situations, they would have had a much preposterous life. You know that reminds what is going on in Saudi Arabia. The king distributes a sufficient amount of money to keep the people live in average or better economical conditions while oppressing them in other parts. You know some people rather be poor than be oppressed. And who can say that is not true for the Palestinians. As long as they have their freedom, they can blossom into a better country without oppression. But, right now, they cannot break out of it.

what you SHOULD have said was
had they not declared war on israel from the first moment it was created
and continued to wage this war for over 60 years (the actual conflict is more like 80 years by now, it predates israel's actual existance)
they wouldnt have ended up losing everything and get stuck with what they have now

and if they were smart enough to just ACCEPT that fact that the israeli's arent going away so they might as well live WITH them rather then continue fighting AGAINST them
they could have had a country of their own almost 10 years ago

you can feel sorry for them if you want
feeling sorry for the weak is a human traits after all
but dont forget that they are the ones who brought it upon themselves by being greedy and unwilling to compremise
and i doubt that the israeli's would have been treated HALF as nice if they had lost that war

about the idea that the soldiers are helping the protestors
i'm with SaintessHeart here
i dont trust that too much
especialy when the article puts the death toll at 7 (its corrently said to be at over two dozon)

[AnimeFan188]

Iran’s Hidden Revolution

See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/op...pagewanted=all


What Just Happened?

See:

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/bl...p/totten/70242

[WanderingKnight]

show me an american or israeli leader who would dare to say something like that
that they are in power because GOD put them in power

Oh, OK, so I must have dreamed all those speeches Bush gave saying that God was on the side of America in the Iraq war.

Every government is the same. The idea that "fundamentalists" are somehow batshit insane people who act irrationally are implanted by the people on power on this side, because it helps garner approval for a war. In reality, they act pretty much as rationally as those on the other side.

War isn't about religion. War isn't about irrational people throwing tantrums on the "good" people. War is simply a conflict of very rational, concrete, down-to-earth interests. As long as you don't see it that way, your understanding of these events will be tarnished.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Oh, OK, so I must have dreamed all those speeches Bush gave saying that God was on the side of America in the Iraq war.

saying god is on your side is one (stupid IMO) thing
saying "i rule becouse i speak for god"
thats quite another thing altogether

saying that all war is based on logic is true
but LOGIC itself differs
the iranian goverment is trying to establish itself as the main power in the middle east
and they have a very sepcific agenda that they are pushing for
this agenda (that is based in their FAITH) is NOT in your or my benifit
its also not in the benifit of anyone who is gay, female, free thinking, or anything other then shia muslim
and as long as YOU refsue to admit that, YOUR view on this conflict would be tarnished

life would have been MUCH eaiser if they were mearly insane

[WanderingKnight]

The US also has a very specific agenda (to be the main power the world, as they've been doing for more than half a century). Israel also has a specific agenda (to be the main power in the Middle East, and act as the US' proxy there).

Every country has a specific agenda.

its also not in the benifit of anyone who is gay, female, free thinking, or anything other then shia muslim

I'm sorry, but I remember gay marriage being illegal in most US states. I also remember military training to be mandatory in Israel. Or do you have some sort of info I'm missing?

Freedom is just a word that's brandished by the propaganda machine. There's no such thing as an absolute state of freedom in this world. You're dominated by the people in power in your country and in other countries, as am I, and everyone in this forum.

[Xellos-_^]

the worst thing the west could do is seen as meddling in Iran. The Irianian military might not get involve in killing its own people but I am pretty they will get involve if the West is caught meddling.

The US cannot afford another iraq. it might seem strange to bladeofdarkness but what is good for Isarel isn't automatically good for the US.

[bladeofdarkness]

actually its the US's agenda to be the main power in effecting middle east policy
israel isnt big enough to be the effective power, its agenda is more a local one (gaining peace with the surrounding arab states and finally securing its existance for ever)
its more accuret to say that israeli is one of the WAYS in which america seeks to gain their position
their leash over israel is one of their main appels to the arab world

I'm sorry, but I remember gay marriage being illegal in most US states. Or do you have some sort of info I'm missing?

in the US gay marriage is not YET legal (it would get there eventually)
in iran homosexuality is punishable by DEATH (and not a nice little lethal injection either)
there IS a small but rather importent differnce

@Xellos-_^
it might sound strange to you
but not everything that is good for israel is also automaticlly bad for everyone else
the corrent iranian goverment out of power is something that is good for EVERYONE
including (possibly espcially) for the iranian people themselves
and i never said anything about the west interfearing using militery power
just let those poor basterds getting their heads cracked open by the iranian police that they have support from outside iran as well
dont just let them give up or run out of steam (how long till there's another chance like this)
one of the ONLY things that the bush administration did right was that they promoted the idea of democracy and human rights
obama seems to have given up on that notion

@JanthraX^
wait... what
GREEK students, mercenary groups ?

[JanthraX^]

Greek students need to organise themselves into mercenary groups,
Mousavi supporters are not streetfighters

[WanderingKnight]

in the US gay marriage is not YET legal (it would get there eventually)
in iran homosexuality is punishable by DEATH (and not a nice little lethal injection either)

In essence, though, it's the same thing. Your freedom is limited both ways. First try to admit that, and then we can have an intelligent discussion. Otherwise, it just degrades into the pitiful wankery proposed by the media.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

In essence, though, it's the same thing. Your freedom is limited both ways. First try to admit that, and then we can have an intelligent discussion. Otherwise, it just degrades into the pitiful wankery proposed by the media.

you are right about there being no such thing as absolute freedom
if there WAS you'd never be able to have a country at all
freedom without limits is just a word
but there are TWO ways of thinking about this
either the goverment is given power by the PEOPLE
in which case their ability to limit your freedom is limited to what the people AGREE to let them do
and you are free to do what ever you want, UNLESS its something that had been specificlly forbidden by LAW
or
the goverment's power is granted by a HIGHER power (god, right of kings, militery power,etc)
in which case they can limit your freedom AS THEY WANT (or what they claim god wants)
and you are FORBIDDEN from doing ANYTHING, unless its PREMITED by law

thats the two ways to look at it
and in iran (Where the goverment is in power NOT by the people) its the second
and while america isnt PERFECT
its at least move on from the old days
there used to be a time not very long ago when a black man couldnt sit in front of the bus
now there is one in the white house
america is moving FORWARD
iran is NOT
its LESS progressive and more opressive then it was before the revolution

[WanderingKnight]

either the goverment is given power by the PEOPLE
in which case their ability to limit your freedom is limited to what the people AGREE to let them do
and you are free to do what ever you want, UNLESS its something that had been specificlly forbidden by LAW
or
the goverment's power is granted by a HIGHER power (god, right of kings, militery power,etc)
in which case they can limit your freedom AS THEY WANT (or what they claim god wants)
and you are FORBIDDEN from doing ANYTHING, unless its PREMITED by law

You're parting from the idea that somehow the people elected are elected by the "true will of the people", whatever the hell that means.

Which is completely contradictory to the idea that freedom does not exist. As I said before: Democracy is broken. Private interests on both sides rule the day, not the will of the people. That's just a facade.

[bladeofdarkness]

explain obama then
the guy is black,his middle name is the same as a certain iraqi dictator, and he speaks about reforms and changes in internal in external policy
if there was EVER a guy who the "Private interests on both sides" wouldnt want in office, he's the guy
and yet he gets elected, and starts making a BIG mess of things all over the place
becouse he has the PEOPLE's voice
and the "Private interests on both sides" can take a walk

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

explain obama then
the guy is black,his middle name is the same as a certain iraqi dictator, and he speaks about reforms and changes in internal in external policy
if there was EVER a guy who the "Private interests on both sides" wouldnt want in office, he's the guy
and yet he gets elected, and starts making a BIG mess of things all over the place
becouse he has the PEOPLE's voice
and the "Private interests on both sides" can take a walk

Just a note blade, yes, Obama seems genuine and promising, but do not judge someone in his few months of doing "work." You should wait a bit more, history has taught us that anyway.

[WanderingKnight]

Oh, right, so Obama is black and so he's different?

Private interests still rule the US. Obama will be exactly the same as before. He has already made subtle threats of war against Iran, for instance. Besides, the US isn't ruled by just a man, there are lots of very deeply ingrained structures of individuals and corporations with a stake at hand in the actions taken by the US.

It will always be the same as long as the system remains the same. The ways change, but the essence remains. Marx was a genius.

[NightWish]

General, friendly, reminder: this thread is about the current events in Iran. Some of you need to seriously rein in your propensity to deviate into unrelated rhetoric. Please keep things on-topic so we don't need to restrict your posting for you.

[WanderingKnight]

"Appears" is the key. As I said, the ways change, but the essence remains. The system is the same. It's dominated by the same people it was dominated by during the Bush administration, and during the Clinton administration, and so on and so forth.

[bladeofdarkness]

the problem with irans goverment is not simply that they are a dictatorship
iraq was also a dictatorship, as is eagpt and syria and basiclly ALL of the arab states
the problem with iran is that its goverment as a specific agenda that they are trying to push
and its a problem
in much the same way that communisem was a problem
becouse this agenda does NOT lead to what you and i want
it places more importence about what some thousend year old BOOK says then it does about human life (have you ever heard how iranians used to clear mine-fields)

[WanderingKnight]

aside from bitching about how you dont get complete freedom
are you actually trying to make a point

My point is that the bastards on Iran are exactly the same, in essence, as the bastards on this side. It's not suddenly different because people there are Islamic, or they have more backwards traditions. The essence is exactly the same.

Which is something you should always have in mind when talking about other countries. Otherwise you're fostering the fake and partial image of the world the media preaches.