Sword Art Online - Character Discussion - Kirito

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Randomzx

He's a blatant Gary Stu pandering to the wish fulfillment crowd. Seriously, he reminds me of that one NCIS episode with the girl being a champion in every MMO ever (yes the author's grasp on the nature of MMO and a player's capability and limitation is that bad).
Needless to say, naming any of his LN 'feats' count as spoiling.

Ehm.. Gary Stu/Mary Sue is a term usually limited to fan fiction and original characters.

Wish fufillment? I guess not everybody can appreciate good romance and good writing. Ah well, haters gonna hate. *shrug*

[novalysis]

When we get weak protagonists, he is condemned as a waste of space, oxygen and ink.

When we get competent protagonist, he is condemned as a Gary Stu.

[kyp275]

To be fair, Kirito does step pretty close to the line, though I certainly don't think he's a flawless character, nor that there's anything wrong with a bit of OP-ness in the main protagonist in a story like SAO.

I mean, what do you want to read about? the main character kicking ass and taking names, or repeatedly running back to his corpse to pick up his gear 'cause he keeps getting pwnd?

[Ray]

Pretty close..? Hm. No, not really. As someone who has been exposed to many Gary Stus and Mary Sues, yeah.. no. He's just a very strong character (or somewhat OP, if you like); look at that how you will.

I agree with nova, though; people will always find a reason to hate on a character if they look hard enough. But then again, the reverse of that is also true. Ah well.

[kyp275]

Depends on what standard you use, if you're comparing him to the typical lolfanfic super OP characters or even some of the shounen leads, then yea. But if you put him next to more classical or non-anime characters, then he's probably gonna shoot off the charts.

IMO however, by the time someone starts doing critical analysis on a LN/Anime character, they've already missed the entire point of the show.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Depends on what standard you use, if you're comparing him to the typical lolfanfic super OP characters or even some of the shounen leads, then yea. But if you put him next to more classical or non-anime characters, then he's gonna shoot off the charts.

IMO however, by the time someone starts doing critical analysis on a LN/Anime character, they've already missed the entire point of the show.

Well, considering the standard is usually those "typical lolfanfic super OP" () characters, so yeah.

But haha, you're right.

Oh, what's this? Somebody that holds the same view as me with regard to critical analysis on LN/anime characters? That's rare.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Depends on what standard you use, if you're comparing him to the typical lolfanfic super OP characters or even some of the shounen leads, then yea. But if you put him next to more classical or non-anime characters, then he's probably gonna shoot off the charts.

IMO however, by the time someone starts doing critical analysis on a LN/Anime character, they've already missed the entire point of the show.

I'll argue that had SAO been written in another country (and it could easily have been- Korea (and likely America) are more MMO Crazy than Japan), it would have been regarded as an interesting Sci-fi series, considered decent literature rather than a full out pulp fiction novel.

I'd consider Kirito a Sue if he was infallible .

Spoiler for To be safe:

Never mind that the fear of failing in a high stakes game like SAO is the most strongly define part of his character in the Aincrad Arc. ALO is motivated by very strong love, and honestly speaking, GGO is really not typical LN territory. And Alicization is...unique.

So, is he competent? Yes. Perfect? Far from it of course. Talented? Yes, but you can argue that many, many other protagonists are talented in their own ways. Morally a Saint? No.

I don't think SAO can be seen in the same light as other LNs out there. It probably should and was meant to be put to a level of scrutiny closer to Fate Zero or Haruhi Suzumiya (later novels) then Hagani or Index. On the level of competency, I'd argue that if you see Kirito as a Sue, then so to is Emiya Kiritsugu.

[Wild Goose]

I'd just like to point out that Mary Sue tests can get you false positives. For example, I once ran a character through a common Mary Sue litmus test. He was an American paratrooper in World War 2, greatly loved by his man, a real badass, led an attack on a fortified position that became a textbook example of What To Do Right that was taught at Westpoint for over seventy years. He was so liked by his men that the NCOs of his company threatened to resign if they went into combat with anyone else other than him in charge. He led an attack on an SS battalion and chased them off with a single rifle. He was so good he was promoted to Battalion Commander, and was greatly admired and respected by legions of soldiers and ordinary people around the world. He was so admired, his death was only announced AFTER the funeral, because there would have been no way there would have been enough space to accomodate those who paid their respects/

Verdict? Total sue. Said Mary Sue's name? Richard Winters.

There was another Sue I made. He was a Marine Sniper, won the Wimbeldon Cup, the most prestigious award in US military target shooting. In Vietnam, he formed the core of the first ever Scout Sniper platoon. He held the world record for longest sniper rifle kill, using an M2 machine gun. On his second tour in Nam, he single-handedly restored pride and standards to a demoralised scout sniper platoon. In a duel with an enemy sniper, he killed the man by firing a bullet right through the sniper's scope. Upon his return from Nam, he was one of the chief instructors at the newly-formed Scout Sniper School. He was friends with the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, the Commandant of the Marine Corps was a friend to him, and the Corps named a library after him. He had 300 unconfirmed kills, 93 confirmed, and was hailed as the greatest sniper in the Marine Corps, not just in kills, but in his legacy and the training he passed on. When he died, he was mourned throughout the United States Marine Corps.

Verdict? Again, total sue. His name was Carlos Hathcock.

What people forget is that Sues are hated because they displace the pratagonist, in fanfiction, in someone else's verse. But this is SAO, and Kirito is the viewpoint character. Him being competent is not Sue-like.

And again, two Real Men. Badasses. Actually existed. And the test rates them as being Sues. Heh. Wonder why nobody's accused Major Kusanagi of being a Sue.

[Randomzx]

As from one poster:

My only real problem is that Kirito isn't just a Gary Stu, he's a Gary Stu that wins and exceeds by such a ridiculous margin that it doesn't even make sense in universe.

Spoiler:

He's so good that he becomes the best player in the game doing what other MMO addicts do. He's so good that he gets the best gear and clears the hardest quests that no one else can; solo. He's so amazing that he gets the girl that's not only one of the rare hot ones that actually plays MMOs but is is also rich and fits into the otaku wish fulfillment wife. And Yet despite this, girls still flock to him with no end in sight. He's so great that his brain somehow processes faster than a normal human's, possibly he's more 'intelligent' as well (He's apparently now a mechatronics engineer with proficiency in mechanical, electrical, and computer software engineering able to create technology decades ahead of his time and basically able to fully emulate and copy consciousness to data. Yeah, he's starting to take over the real world as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he could suddenly fight in the real world as well.) He's so epic that he manages to warp the laws of the game he's in and break the code. He's so undeniably hax that he can beat the GM and even people who have direct control over the game. He's just special that he can do the same and break the laws of any game that hes in and attain complete mastery instantly. He's so unique that he gets a job doing what he loves and lives a lavish life with super high pay.

If I didn't know any better, I'd think it was a parody from reading the summaries.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

And again, two Real Men. Badasses. Actually existed. And the test rates them as being Sues. Heh. Wonder why nobody's accused Major Kusanagi of being a Sue.

Because she'd shoot them full of holes, snap their necks, and then toss of them off the nearest skycraper

also, o7 to Gunny Hathcock and Maj. Winters, and all the rest tbh, there were countless badasses in WW2

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Randomzx

My only real problem is that Kirito isn't just a Gary Stu, he's a Gary Stu that wins and exceeds by such a ridiculous margin that it doesn't even make sense in universe.

eh, not really.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Randomzx

He's so good that he becomes the best player in the game doing what other MMO addicts do.

He's certainly one of the best player, though certainly not the best - Kayaba and Yuki both bested him.

Originally Posted by Randomzx

He's so good that he gets the best gear and clears the hardest quests that no one else can; solo.

Eh, it was never clear what and how much gears mattered in SAO, and the only time where Kirito has the best weapon was in ALO, but that quest was hardly cleared solo. In fact, the only quest I remember Kirito cleared solo was in RNR, and that certainly neither "the hardest" nor something "no one else can" clear.

Originally Posted by Randomzx

He's so amazing that he gets the girl that's not only one of the rare hot ones that actually plays MMOs but is is also rich and fits into the otaku wish fulfillment wife.

Wow, this one is just stupid, he gets the girl because he's the f-ing main character, they always get the girl.

Originally Posted by Randomzx

He's so great that his brain somehow processes faster than a normal human's, possibly he's more 'intelligent' as well (He's apparently now a mechatronics engineer with proficiency in mechanical, electrical, and computer software engineering able to create technology decades ahead of his time and basically able to fully emulate and copy consciousness to data.

Learn2read next time. In SAO, the brains of players who spend long periods of time in full-dive becomes more and more attuned to the neural interface and are capable of reacting faster than those who hasn't. This is not something exclusive to Kirito, but rather everyone who were in the same situation, such as all other SAO players and people like Yuki.

the second half of that is not only factually incorrect, but is so far out of what's actually in the novels that the only reasonable conclusion is that you pulled it out of your ass.

Originally Posted by Randomzx

Yeah, he's starting to take over the real world as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he could suddenly fight in the real world as well.) He's so epic that he manages to warp the laws of the game he's in and break the code. He's so undeniably hax that he can beat the GM and even people who have direct control over the game. He's just special that he can do the same and break the laws of any game that hes in and attain complete mastery instantly. He's so unique that he gets a job doing what he loves and lives a lavish life with super high pay.

not only did you continue to pull crap out of your ass, at this point you're just plain trolling now.

Originally Posted by Randomzx

If I didn't know any better, I'd think it was a parody from reading the summaries.

The only thing that's being parodied here is your lack of reading comprehension.

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by kyp275

The only thing that's being parodied here is your lack of reading comprehension.

More like you missed this

As from one poster:

Pretty much all of your 'points' are nothing more justifying edits failing to understand why they make a Gary Stu. The misconception of a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is not someone who is perfect. But someone whose role and abilities have such cancerous focus/grip on the story that it harms it to a huge degree. not to mention the author contradicts himself multiple times in trying to justify many of Kirito's abilities and actions

Seriously, look up the definition of Mary Sue on multiple sources.

That said, on one point,

Spoiler:

Kayaba and Yuki both bested him.

Except Kayaba was pretty much cheating and Yuki practically dies of AIDS so she won't outshine Kirito so the the self-insert people won't be offended

[Craxuan]

He is the main protagonist, you know. It's inevitable that he would read like a Gary Stu or whatever the hell that is because this is a LIGHT novel. There are so many other stories out there of the similar genre that couldn't even lick the boots of SAO, and Kirito is one of the better constructed characters I've seen for quite a while.

There will always be a number one in something, and Kirito happens to be that in SAO. In GGO his unorthodox style of play and immense experience gave him an advantage over the other players, but given enough time anyone could've come up with a comprehensive way to beat him.

It is not even uncommon that you can complete supposedly team quests solo; people have done much crazier things in MMO.

The harem thing is just Japan. The protagonists always have legions of women fawning over them.

Spoiler:

He has committed murder in the name of saving and caused his own guild to die (one of them committed suicide because he did not tell them that he was a Beta player, and thought of it as a betrayal).

His role had definitely not harmed the story, that I can tell you. He is definitely not perfect, and honestly has not played a real HERO character until the coming of Alicization. And that arc looks to be very dark.

[novalysis]

Spoiler for For end of Aincrad Arc& Alicization:

I'd argue that Kirito is about as much a Sue as Kayaba/Heartcliff. In many ways, he is a genius on par with Heartcliff, only born a decade or so younger, and likely exposed to very different life experiences. In a way, mind you, Kirito at 14, at the beginning of SAO had certain Jerk like tendencies and tended to be more selfish. It's probably only after Sachi and the Red Nose Reindeer that that side of him was completely broken for good. Indeed, if not for the SAO incident, he would have likely entered Heartcliff/Obereon's world, and possibly went down the same path as these two villains.

What he experienced in Aincrad, and definitely, his relationship with Asuna now ensures he could plunge down and follow Heartcliff to the bottom of the Rabbit Hole, and retain his sense of morality, and of right and wrong which both Heartcliff and Oberon Lost sometime down the line.

Indeed, even by Alicization he more or less tells Asuna that he'd like to pursue down the road Heartcliff tread, and find out what drove such a brilliantly charismatic man down to commit that act of insanity that was SAO. He'd like to see the "new world" being born. More or less, he aims to be present, and one of the leading "mid-wifes" of the technological Singularity the world of SAO seems to be plunging towards.

I'd also argue that Kirito would sympathize with Emiya Kiritsugu's philosophy. He's surely not your Shounen hero of justice. Far from it. A Shounen hero of justice would have agreed to stay with Klein. Mind you, had he joined Klein's guild,the odds are high that

Spoiler for Red Nose Reindeer Spoiler:

Sachi and the Black cats would have

survived to the end of the game, ironically. Indeed, had he joined Klein's guild, I suspect he might have been able to stop the BEATER concept at it's inception.

Kirito is not a Sue. He's merely a highly talented young man with potential Anti-hero tendencies curbed by the unique circumstances and harsh life lessons Aincrad and what happened after taught him. One of the big themes of SAO is the coming of age story of a genius coming of age on the eve of a technological singularity.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Because she'd shoot them full of holes, snap their necks, and then toss of them off the nearest skycraper

there's that. Or just hack them into submission.

also, o7 to Gunny Hathcock and Maj. Winters, and all the rest tbh, there were countless badasses in WW2

Oh, there were, it's just that those two have the most current recognition atm. Audie Murphy, most decorated US soldier ever, would be another case, and of course we cannot forget Marshall Zhukov, who had a coat LOADED with medals that he earned by being so badass. Particularly in a BT-2.

Regards being a sue, Kirito is the main character, therefore by default the title of Mary Sue/Gary Stu cannot apply, as that term refers to an author created character in a work of fan fiction.

Now, to address some factual errors:

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Randomzx

He's so good that he becomes the best player in the game doing what other MMO addicts do. He's so good that he gets the best gear and clears the hardest quests that no one else can; solo.

Note that at that point he'd been playing for 2 years. Also, the game makes it clear that the hardest quests, clearing the level bosses, cannot be done alone. Every boss fight so far, except for St. Nicholas the Apostate (in which, might I add, he nearly died), was cleared as part of a group action. He isn't the highest leveled player in the game - the clearing group are a few hundred high level players who're just as good as he is.

I can solo Bronze with no problem, Silver with some difficulty, and Gold up to level 6 before real estate deals happen. In three weeks I went from being the lowest ranked player in malaysia to no. 651 out of 10,000 players. Am I a sue? (Mass Effect 3 MP).

He's so amazing that he gets the girl that's not only one of the rare hot ones that actually plays MMOs but is is also rich and fits into the otaku wish fulfillment wife. And Yet despite this, girls still flock to him with no end in sight.

probably because he was a more or less decent person when dealing to Asuna, and their relationship is based on mutual friendship, and he was her first friend ingame? And because he's not an asshole?

He's so great that his brain somehow processes faster than a normal human's, possibly he's more 'intelligent' as well (He's apparently now a mechatronics engineer with proficiency in mechanical, electrical, and computer software engineering able to create technology decades ahead of his time and basically able to fully emulate and copy consciousness to data. Yeah, he's starting to take over the real world as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he could suddenly fight in the real world as well.)

Yes, hooking up a couple of webcams to a laptop, and using servos to controll their movement is truly cutting edge stuff. Why, it's not as if the technology for yui's laptop rig hasn't existed for DECADES. And he IS studying mechatronics, y'know.

And there hasn't been any example of copying consciousness to data that he's done, that was Kayaba. And it didn't quite work. As for yui, she's an AI program. He was able to save her program to his NervGear's storage - he didn't copy anyone's ghost.

As for fighting in the real world, you apparently overlooked the bit about him having taken up kendo before, IRL. And i wonder how far you've read, because he's been in two irl fights, managed to survive the first from luck, and got his ass kicked in the second.

He's so epic that he manages to warp the laws of the game he's in and break the code. He's so undeniably hax that he can beat the GM and even people who have direct control over the game. He's just special that he can do the same and break the laws of any game that hes in and attain complete mastery instantly. He's so unique that he gets a job doing what he loves and lives a lavish life with super high pay.

hmmm. Any concrete examples of this? the only code breaking was Asuna running at 60km/h, which exceeds the system limits. Kirito hasn't done anything that.

Yes, he beat Kayaba, but only after Kayaba removed his GM protection for their final duel. Until Kayaba's ghost showed up, he wasn't able to touch Oberon at all, and had to use Kayaba's GM account to reset Oberon.

Also, people have killed GMs before - therre's an account of an Ultima player sucessfully killing Lord British. Who made the game.

As for the job with super high pay, no, his life isn't lavish at all - Caliber makes it clear that his payment for investigating Death Gun was wiped out from building Yui's rig, the party, and Suguha's christmas present. And note that all VRMMOs are using the Seed engine, aka SAO's engine, which was released by Kayaba as a posthumous pet thendog. Notice that all Unreal 3 games have their similarities?

If I didn't know any better, I'd think it was a parody from reading the summaries.

Since I have no way of knowing better, my only conclusion is that you skimmed through the books and didn't read them fully.

Much of my delivery is lost in the cold medium of text. I may need to record this as an audio file; In my mind I am speaking in the style all propesctive barristers learn.

Originally Posted by novalysis

Spoiler for For end of Aincrad Arc& Alicization:

I'd argue that Kirito is about as much a Sue as Kayaba/Heartcliff. In many ways, he is a genius on par with Heartcliff, only born a decade or so younger, and likely exposed to very different life experiences. In a way, mind you, Kirito at 14, at the beginning of SAO had certain Jerk like tendencies and tended to be more selfish. It's probably only after Sachi and the Red Nose Reindeer that that side of him was completely broken for good. Indeed, if not for the SAO incident, he would have likely entered Heartcliff/Obereon's world, and possibly went down the same path as these two villains.

What he experienced in Aincrad, and definitely, his relationship with Asuna now ensures he could plunge down and follow Heartcliff to the bottom of the Rabbit Hole, and retain his sense of morality, and of right and wrong which both Heartcliff and Oberon Lost sometime down the line.

Indeed, even by Alicization he more or less tells Asuna that he'd like to pursue down the road Heartcliff tread, and find out what drove such a brilliantly charismatic man down to commit that act of insanity that was SAO. He'd like to see the "new world" being born. More or less, he aims to be present, and one of the leading "mid-wifes" of the technological Singularity the world of SAO seems to be plunging towards.

I'd also argue that Kirito would sympathize with Emiya Kiritsugu's philosophy. He's surely not your Shounen hero of justice. Far from it. A Shounen hero of justice would have agreed to stay with Klein. Mind you, had he joined Klein's guild,the odds are high that

Spoiler for Red Nose Reindeer Spoiler:

Sachi and the Black cats would have

survived to the end of the game, ironically. Indeed, had he joined Klein's guild, I suspect he might have been able to stop the BEATER concept at it's inception.

Kirito is not a Sue. He's merely a highly talented young man with potential Anti-hero tendencies curbed by the unique circumstances and harsh life lessons Aincrad and what happened after taught him. One of the big themes of SAO is the coming of age story of a genius born on the verge of a technological singularity.

Agreed. QFT. I have nothing more to say, other than this is an excellent summation of the character...

... Even if I still must insist that strictly,speaking, as a main character, in the verse he originates from, the Mary Sue label should not apply.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Randomzx

As from one poster:

Wait-- you're arguing by using someone else's opinion?

Spoiler for Not really a spoiler, but just in case:

If I didn't know any better, I'd think it was a parody from reading the summaries.

So you've only read the summaries, and not what's available of the light novels? Your argument is invalid then.

[Swordstriker21]

Seeing that his arguments have been already deconstructed to a degree it becomes invalid it seems there's no point in chiming in fairly similar points. If he still doesn't understand then I will just simply consider him a troll and move on.

In closing let me just quote some particular lines from the novel said by the man himself:

Spoiler for Kirito's train of thought...:

As I raised my hand in response, I started thinking in my mind,

If I learnt anything about the human's capability through the experience from the three worlds: SAO, ALO, GGO, it would be just one, «Nothing can be shouldered alone».

No matter in which world, there were many times I was about to be crushed, but somehow managed to continue walking forward with the help of many people. The development of today's sudden adventure was also a sign of it, wasn't it? So surely, my —— no, everyone's «caliber» was the point inside the full circle made by all my companions holding hands together.

P.S. Oh and please tell me if this violates the forum rules and I'll edit it out.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Swordstriker21

Seeing that his arguments have been already deconstructed to a degree it becomes invalid it seems there's no point in chiming in fairly similar points.

It wasn't his argument to begin with, though.

[Xacual]

Randomzx is most likely a troll, he's just repeating what all the SAO trolls on /a/ have been saying the last week.

I can't consider Kirito a Gary Stu just because he's a competent MC.

[novalysis]

This amuses me greatly. The first two pages of Kirito's character thread, a thorough rebuttal to why Kirito is not a Sue.