Mechs, Weapons, and Technology of Code Geass

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

The seiten had the same weak point, but at last Kallen understood the lesson after two defeats for losing the right arm.
It's written in the mecha art too, because inside the arm there were the weapon system CPU control, without the right arm losing that arm = all energy-radiation weapons disabled.
And the guren was able to fight just with the knife and the machine gun (not installed in the seiten).

The radiant surge is in the right arm, so I fail to see what you're getting at. The arm goes, the surge goes, so it makes sense for the CPU controlling it to be in the arm. The Guren SEITEN still had a knife and two harkens, as opposed to just one. Suzaku broke the knife mid-battle.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

The seiten had the same weak point, but at last Kallen understood the lesson after two defeats for losing the right arm.
It's written in the mecha art too, because inside the arm there were the weapon system CPU control, without the right arm = all energy-radiation weapons disabled.
And the guren was able to fight just with the knife and the machine gun (not installed in the seiten).

it has wings (that can slice a KMF in half)
harkens with boosters
an MVS dagger
all these systems are as good as any other weapon on the show
its not just the arm anymore

she also the only one who treats the wings as weapons
suzaku uses the pew pew wings spam feture, but not as close combat weapons

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i think its also the matter of energy use
i kinda always felt that the blaze luminus system is probably the most power costing feture of the lancelot's systems
the varis uses ammo
the MVS seem to be powered by themselves more or less (which is why other units have them in such large numbers)
and the harken boosters are just harkens with rocket attachments
but the shields are something the lancelot generates using internal energy alone
which is probably why its the only fetures that are not included in almost any other unit

I'm not sure if its my sub or not but didn't Suzaku say "out of shield energy" after blocking Kallens final radiation surge in the last EP? If so that means that the blaze liminous emitters have their own seperate power supply(in 9th gen frames anyway).

If so its not going to end up draing you main battery because its got its own power source, why not install it? She doesn't have to use it all the time or even at all. It just gives it greater defensive capabilities and makes it a more flexible/adaptable weapons platform.

[bladeofdarkness]

i dont know
i guess they didnt insteall the shieds for the same reason they didnt install the wing spam feture
becouse you need each robot to be uniqe enough so you could sell toys of it (it works, im still waiting for my albion )

@bonzo
i doubt the CPU for ALL the weapons would be inside the arm itself
if it was why on earth would Lloyd turn the arm into a harken
who the fuck shoots out the entire KMF's weapon control system at enemies on a wire

[Bonzo]

If lose a arm = lost all the powerful weapon and to fight just with melee weapon isn't a weak point....

Guren lost the right arm only at the final blow thanks the "standard sunrise gundam plot" about final-battle-robots-demolition-without-to-hit-weak-points.

Everybody understood it was the guren best target, in fact for 90% of attacks suzaku tried to cut it.

[bladeofdarkness]

when did he try to attack it in the final fight ?

[Bonzo]

Lancelot had a single energy generator, but losing the wings he had more energy for the shields at despite all the energy he used for the useless attacks against the damocles.

Then he used less energy for defence, kallen made a lot of exaggerated attacks just to justify they empty their resources at the same second.....the immortal anime coincidence.

If you look well, a lot of his melee attacks were against the guren right arm, the only able to generate a sort of shield, kallen blocked all, this is obvious, otherwise....to cut guren right arm was the fastest way to defeat kallen without to hurt her and to low a lot guren's danger.

[bladeofdarkness]

she only fires the arm twice ...during the entire fight
what exaggerated attacks

and when did he attack the arm
at all

every shot and slice and punch were aimed at the guren as a whole

[Bonzo]

You forgot all the radiation attacks against Lelouch minions, I spoke in general for her, I specified only for suzaku.

However, if you want to laugh, there're some doujinshi where the guren without arm turn off and kallen is trapped inside asking help

[bladeofdarkness]

during the fight against "lelouch's minions" she uses the arm no more then she uses any of the other weapons
she actually takes out more enemies with the wings harkens and dagger then she does with the arm and that includes C.C (watch ep 24)
the only difference is that suzaku bearly fights anyone in the final battle
he fights xing-ke toudn gino and tamaki
and in all those cases he does it with close range weapons and harknes so he doesnt really waste all that much varis ammo
kallen fighst C.C and lots of mooks becosue thats all lelouch really has aside from suzaku and jeremia
but in terms of enemies she actually fights many more of them then suzaku does
and when they end up fighting each other she bearly uses the arm at all

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I wonder if the Radiation Wave technology requires parts that are otherwise difficult to get for Britannia. That's the only thing I can think of that prevents Britannia from incorporating the technology into their own machines. So far the only machines we've seen that incorporate Britannian tech with Black Knight tech is the Guren SEITEN Hakyoukashiki and the Sutherland Sieg.

I think it was more of Lloyd and Rakshata's rivalry and them not wanting to use each others technology. Lloyd was the only one on the Britannian side who got to look at the Radiation wave tech and he mostly ignored it in favor of his own tech (MVS Energy Wing and Rocket Harken). He tweaked it a bit to fire discs but for the most part left the wave alone and showed no intention of mass producing it. Why would he? The Radiation Barriers were not shown to be more effective than the Blaze Luminous they were just a different type of shield. And rather than be impressed with the improvements to Guren Rakshata was pissed that Lloyd's tech was on her machine.

Likewise when the Black Knights got access to Rolo's Vincent they more or less just left it as his unit. They didn't mass produce MVS's because there was no need to as the Black Knight Katen Yaibatou's were just as effective. The only time Rakshata seemed interested in reverse engineering Lancelot was back in season 1 when it was superior to everything else. During the timeskip she was able to use her own tech to close the gap in machines and invent her own flight system so she had no further interest in it.

The only time she merged her own tech with Britannian was the Sutherland Seig where she was specifically ordered by Zero to salvage a unit for Jeremiah and since Seigfried wasn't built by Lloyd she might not have minded.

But at that point the Britannian tech and Black Knight tech were different but more or less matched each other.

[Bonzo]

About the rest, britannia standard KMF are equipped with short-close range weapon and melee (machine gun, spears, tonfa) the only exception is the gareth (short range missile launcher and mini-hadron)

Instead BK standard robots have weapon for medium-long range (machine gun, missile launchers, assault cannon, rocket launcher), the only exception are tohdou kmf equipped just with melee weapon (swords, the standard samurai honor) and his minions.

Instead UN and China had KMF able just for perimeter defense (only fix long range weapon), then totally useless in short combat.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Suzaku does have Knightmare training, but it's simulator-only since Elevens are barred from piloting mechs.

Kallen doesn't have formal training, but she appears to be something of a child prodigy when it comes to piloting Knightmare Frames.

Otherwise I agree with your assessment, blade. Only those who had Super Prototypes to begin with drove them to their limits. Those who later received an upgraded new-generation KMF never appeared to use the machine to its limits.

i wouldnt say that its ONLY about the training (suzaku's simulator and kallen's prodigy skills)
its also about the mindframe of it
if you spend years with a machine that can only do a certain thing, you get used to only using THOSE moves and skills

Spoiler for martial arts example:

it happens all the time with martial artists who specialize in specific traits (boxing for example)
they often miss out on chance to kick or throw their opponent because its not what they are used to do in combat
and when faced with stress, they default to what they are used to doing

the reverse is also true
i once saw a MMA fighter who was competing in a kick boxing match
in the middle of the fight, despite it being completely against the rules of the match, he ended up throwing his opponent when the chance to do such a move presented itself
it cost him the match (technical loss)
he KNEW that it was against the rules, but he spent YEARS fighting under conditions where that kind of move was not only acceptable, but also desirable
so when put under the stress of combat, his reflexes kicked in and he did something he was USED to do

same case here
after spending years using a machine that is very limited in its abilities (5th gens)
they get handed machines that are not as limited, and they dont use them
not because they CANT use them (i'd expect anyone with half decent skills would be able to make a vincent or an akatsuki do a jump flip)
but because they arent USED to using such moves in combat
and when put under stress, they default to only using the moves that they are used to

suzaku has simulator training, but no experiance while under stress, so he isnt USED to doing anything, and hence isnt stressed

kallen has no formal training, and so isnt limited in HOW she uses her KMF (puncing out a satherland with a glassgo at one point)
and when both are given 7th gens, they arent limited in their reflexes because they didnt really have time to DEVELOP reflexes

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

The final battle was already over for Suzaku. He was missing a leg. That's a game-ending disability without a flight pack. He just got Kallen's arm and head with a last-ditch attack. Besides, Kallen's arm had already run out of ammo for the radiant surge. She was just going melee.

Suzaku can go melee too (without blades, use fists). I don't see a game over there.

so now, you're telling me that Kallen can fight blinded (without head) and armless (no weapons)

wow....

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Suzaku can go melee too (without blades, use fists). I don't see a game over there.

so now, you're telling me that Kallen can fight blinded (without head) and armless (no weapons)

wow....

i think he ment that for suzaku the fight was over the moment he lost the leg
he could no longer move, and was basiclly wide open to kallen's attack
and he couldnt go melee without the leg because he was using his arms to keep himself balanced (you can see it right after he lands)
he had one arm balancing the lancelot and the other arm was destroyed by the claw
so he couldnt prevent kallen from destroying him because she had two arms and he had ONE (which he needed to keep from fliping on his side)
by taking out the head and arm with his last attack suzaku managed to at least STOP kallen from going after LELOUCH, but the moment he lost the leg, he was out of the fight for good even if he managed to take her out WITHOUT being destroyed
he couldnt go anywhere else, and couldnt defent himself from anyone who tried to attack him afterwards (gino could have finished him off with ease by simply floating up and firing his harken at him from the side)

P.S
that post you quoted was from a REALLY long time ago

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i think he ment that for suzaku the fight was over the moment he lost the leg
he could no longer move, and was basiclly wide open to kallen's attack
and he couldnt go melee without the leg because he was using his arms to keep himself balanced (you can see it right after he lands)
he had one arm balancing the lancelot and the other arm was destroyed by the claw
so he couldnt prevent kallen from destroying him because she had two arms and he had ONE (which he needed to keep from fliping on his side)
by taking out the head and arm with his last attack suzaku managed to at least STOP kallen from going after LELOUCH, but the moment he lost the leg, he was out of the fight for good even if he managed to take her out WITHOUT being destroyed
he couldnt go anywhere else, and couldnt defent himself from anyone who tried to attack him afterwards (gino could have finished him off with ease by simply floating up and firing his harken at him from the side)

Lol.



P.S
that post you quoted was from a REALLY long time ago

lol

But still, Suzaku has xxx number of harkens for defense, I hardly think that Kallen has as much harkens to counter let along surpass them. That alone, may not even need Suzaku's fists.

The leg blowing off just gives me one conclusion, Suzaku cannot escape so he must fight.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Suzaku can go melee too (without blades, use fists). I don't see a game over there.

so now, you're telling me that Kallen can fight blinded (without head) and armless (no weapons)

wow....

What blade said. A one-legged Knightmare doesn't have a chance. The best he could do was take her down with him.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

lol

But still, Suzaku has xxx number of harkens for defense, I hardly think that Kallen has as much harkens to counter let along surpass them. That alone, may not even need Suzaku's fists.

The leg blowing off just gives me one conclusion, Suzaku cannot escape so he must fight.

he has two harkens on his hips (the arm ones arent useable)
kallen has to arms (including one that can crush his own arms like they arent there)
she also has two legs (she can kick) while he cant

he uses the harkens to do the only thing he can
take out the arm (which was a second from killing him) and then take out the head to prevent farther movement
but thats the only thing he CAN do at that point
and if he doesnt do that then not only is HE dead, but so is lelouch

[Bonzo]

A knightmare can have two arms and two legs, but without the head they can't fight.
Too much precious systems in the head.
They aren't designed like a gundam with camera and emergency sensors in the main body

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

A knightmare can have two arms and two legs, but without the head they can't fight.
Too much precious systems in the head.
They aren't designed like a gundam with camera and emergency sensors in the main body

Didn't stop Kallen from blowing him up regardless. Suzaku was already defeated. He just made sure to bring Kallen down with him.