[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[AuraTwilight]

but she claimed several times that they were impossible by human means.

Well, since she defines humans as people who don't use magic...

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

Fact of the matter is, Kinzo's body is not stored in the boiler room. It is stored in a place where people wouldn't smell it or where the smell can be kept in check.

If its hidden anywhere inside the mansion it would cause quite a stink just by moving it from where its hidden to the boiler room. If it was hidden somewhere outside then chances are the body would have already decomposed completely and is nothing more than a pile of bones now.

Both of these situations has the corpse moving locations, which I find abhorrent in mystery novels. Corpses shouldn't be moving about unless they where always there from the start or if they where never a corpse to begin with. This train of though should apply to all the previous "corpses moving" situations in this series.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

If its hidden anywhere inside the mansion it would cause quite a stink just by moving it from where its hidden to the boiler room. If it was hidden somewhere outside then chances are the body would have already decomposed completely and is nothing more than a pile of bones now.

Both of these situations has the corpse moving locations, which I find abhorrent in mystery novels. Corpses shouldn't be moving about unless they where always there from the start or if they where never a corpse to begin with. This train of though should apply to all the previous "corpses moving" situations in this series.

What you find/think does not overrule the high possibility of such. Kinzo's body has been found in two different locations throughout these games so far and he was dead at the start of each game. Which means his corpse was moved. Keeping Kinzo's body in the boiler room would DEFINITELY smell. Unless, and this is what you failed to think about when you were mentioning the moving of corpses, the smell was kept in check. Freezing helps prolong the decomposition of the body. I'm pretty sure the bigger problem is moving Kinzo's body because of his size, especially if it is frozen.

[AuraTwilight]

Not to mention that hiding the dead Kinzo's "hiding place" is literally like almost the entire plot of the fifth game.

You mystery novel fans really have to stop being arrogant and insistent with your suppositions of how Umineko SHOULD work and how it'd be abhorrent if it doesn't, considering that Umineko pretty much has done nothing but play with the mystery genre since it started.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

What you find/think does not overrule the high possibility of such. Kinzo's body has been found in two different locations throughout these games so far...

Am I forgetting something here? EP 1,3,4 have had his body being found inside the incinerator. EP 2,5,6 had him as missing, ie his body was never found at the end of the game or by the suspension of it.

Also, Im not being arrogant about my beliefs about the mystery genre. There has been no evidence of corpses being moved throughout all the games, just the notion of them being moved. EP 5 showed an alternative truth of the corpses never being dead to begin with, which oddly enough fits with all the other games as wells.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

I don't know what you are referencing as refuting, but Erika's little search and red are pretty weak.

I'm referring more to the study battle, where basically every single person on the island is in the study except the "victims" and Kinzo. Logically, the bodies (or "bodies") can't be in the study.

That doesn't mean no body is ever in the study (for instance, ep3 and ep4 leave open the prospect), but it does mean the study was not where the First Twilight victims ended up or where Kinzo was the entire time. He could have been in there initially, but was moved in ep5... if he was, however, we have no idea where to, as he wasn't incinerated and wasn't located either. What I was wondering is if there's any hint in ep1-4 as to an alternate storage location.

Garden shed, maybe?

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

What you find/think does not overrule the high possibility of such. Kinzo's body has been found in two different locations throughout these games so far and he was dead at the start of each game. Which means his corpse was moved. Keeping Kinzo's body in the boiler room would DEFINITELY smell. Unless, and this is what you failed to think about when you were mentioning the moving of corpses, the smell was kept in check. Freezing helps prolong the decomposition of the body. I'm pretty sure the bigger problem is moving Kinzo's body because of his size, especially if it is frozen.

I actually meant that Kinzo's body had been snatched off, and the killer was preparing to sacrifice him in the boiler room.

[alviam099]

Her "corpse" was found in the cousins' room along with George, Jessica, and Maria. Where she actually died later is unknown.

It's really unknown
I found it really interesting for Erika not to notice that they're pretending having said that she made it all the way to corner Natsuhi back then..
Krauss is missing that time
Who knows ?

I actually meant that Kinzo's body had been snatched off, and the killer was preparing to sacrifice him in the boiler room.

The only ones who could do it are the servants(pretty much the servants when Kinzo died and Nanjo) and Krauss since they're the only ones who knows it
Well Who knows somebody knew ?

EDIT : Who said dis episode ended with only 1 day .. I find it odd Battler waking up in 3:00 or shame on me I don't remember if it ended in the first day I recall seeing something posted like that

[unsuspectingvisitor]

i think i just figured out who placed the letter and knocked on the door in Ep5.
Its someone in the cousins room that did it.

what i think happened at that time was this. Beato went to the cousins room gave them the letter and ordered them to bring the letter in front of the dining hall door ,drop the letter in front of the door then knocked. After that they left the mansion.

there's No contradiction right?

[AuraTwilight]

There's a contradiction. No one in the guest house would've been able to go there and back without Erika noticing, and she didn't see anyone.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There's a contradiction. No one in the guest house would've been able to go there and back without Erika noticing, and she didn't see anyone.

are you talking to this red? [QUOTE]="Red"]It is impossible for someone to reach the second floor of the guesthouse without anyone in the lounge noticing it. ......Though of course, this only refers to reaching the second floor from inside the building.
It was impossible to reach the second floor of the guesthouse without passing through the lounge, and impossible to reach it at all without Erika, who was in the lounge, knowing about it/QUOTE]

well about that beato doesn't need to enter the guest house though. There's the ladder that she can use remember. She can talk to them through the window or possibly that they left the cousins room through the window with the used of the ladder.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

well about that beato doesn't need to enter the guest house though. There's the ladder that she can use remember. She can talk to them through the window or possibly that they left the cousins room through the window with the used of the ladder.

You have the houses mixed up. Erika was one of the people outside the mansion presumably with all the people in the guesthouse. The letter was placed in the mansion not the guesthouse. Nobody can leave the guesthouse to place the letter without her noticing.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion


and for good measure

It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.

[LyricalAura]

Also, no one could pass through the windows on the second floor anyway because of Erika's duct tape seals, which were guaranteed to be intact and tamper-proof by the red truth.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by Judoh

You have the houses mixed up. Erika was one of the people outside the mansion presumably with all the people in the guesthouse. The letter was placed in the mansion not the guesthouse. Nobody can leave the guesthouse to place the letter without her noticing.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion


and for good measure

It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.

Actually im talking about who place the letter in front of the dining and who knocked.im just saying that Beato went to see them in the guest house using the ladder. its possible that beato ordered them to place the letter then knock on the door.

about the red truth there's no problem at all.

That red truth revolves around who was outside the mansion AT 24:00(12:00).Now remember this, Shannon and kanon went inside the dining hall at 11:50pm and The knocked happened right after that. Then if there's a 10 minute difference between 11:50 AND 12:00 then who ever knocked on the door and place the letter have enough time to exit the mansion.

another red truth you said was for those outside the mansion.But what if that person that place the letter was inside the mansion at that time.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Also, no one could pass through the windows on the second floor anyway because of Erika's duct tape seals, which were guaranteed to be intact and tamper-proof by the red truth.

i don't remember any reds about the windows of the cousins room having a duct tape in them . Can you tell me the exact red that had been used?

[AuraTwilight]

Erika ducktapes everything by her own admission. The ducktapes have the authority of red truth without a red truth statement. It's really clear you need to reread EP5, you're asking really simple questions, here.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Erika ducktapes everything by her own admission. The ducktapes have the authority of red truth without a red truth statement. It's really clear you need to reread EP5, you're asking really simple questions, here.

your saying that erika duct tape the cousin's room window? but what time does the window taping incident happened?

[AuraTwilight]

Earlier. Like, the first instance she's left alone to do so.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

I was wrong on that one sorry.
But i'll change my views of how one of the cousins left the guesthouse. i found out that gohda was inside the servants room until 1:00am and kumasawa was sleeping in the waiting room. While Erika left the mansion at 11:49.with that there's a possibility that one of the cousin left the room before 24:00 yeah just like what erika said in blue but it wasn't denied so it must be true.

lets assume it was george that left the room.he must be already inside the mansion though possibly met up with shannon and he agree to place the letter and knock on the door of the dining hall.

[AuraTwilight]

Things aren't true just because they aren't denied. One of the cousins might have left the room before 24:00, but how the hell did they get back into the room? She was keeping watch THE WHOLE TIME, and all of the cousins were in the room later, murdered around Battler.

Infact, Battler was the only person Erika saw enter all night.

The knock and the letter never existed. There is nothing supporting their existence, and there's no way to withdraw the cousins from the guesthouse because of Erika.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Things aren't true just because they aren't denied. One of the cousins might have left the room before 24:00, but how the hell did they get back into the room? She was keeping watch THE WHOLE TIME, and all of the cousins were in the room later, murdered around Battler.

Infact, Battler was the only person Erika saw enter all night.

The knock and the letter never existed. There is nothing supporting their existence, and there's no way to withdraw the cousins from the guesthouse because of Erika.

No she wasn't there the whole time actually. Did you forgot that Erika started to seal every window after she left the mansion?.

now consider this fact, they never said in Red that the knocked happened on 24:00 and it was only implied by rudolf and erika. This lead me to believe that the Clock in the dining hall was Altered to fool all those inside the dining hall and to fool us.

Sorry,i don't believe that the knock and the letter never existed though. Everything that happened in umineko have an explanation other than they all lied about it.