The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 13]

[KeroKai]

Am I the only one that doesn't seem to have a problem with the positioning of Kyons arm ready to perform a strike? He looked as if he was pulling back his arm for a verticle smash, before being restrained and pulled back. It seems like a perfectly acceptable punch being thrown.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It doesn't MATTER if someone notices they have been mind control or not. Haruhi will notice. And that's what will prevent it from happening; Haruhi wants Kyon to be Kyon. You speak like mind control has no consequences, that it doesn't change anyone permanently. When by definition mind control changes the person permanently. You can't "Mind Control a LITTLE bit".

Whether free will exists or not, what you experience in the past determine what you will do in the future. A mind-controlled Kyon will do something he wouldn't do, and that will in a chain reaction change his actions in the future permanently.

In essence, you speak about how Haruhi could "get away with mind control". I speak about how Haruhi "Doesn't WANT mind control".

Haruhi can do anything and everything. But she can't force Kyon to do something willingly, that is a paradoxical statement.

My whole point here is:
- Haruhi can create or alter the universe at her own will
- the whole universe affect what Kyon becomes, control his thoughts, control his minds, his actions
- then subsequently, Haruhi can unconsciously alter the universe so it will make Kyon follow certain thoughts and actions (let Taniguchi have lunch with him perhaps.....)
- If the thoughts of controlling everything and knowing what will happen make her bored, she can unconsciously clear her memories about that (like in Endless Eight)

[KeroKai]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

My whole point here is:
- Haruhi can create or alter the universe at her own will
- the whole universe affect what Kyon becomes, control his thoughts, control his minds, his actions
- then subsequently, Haruhi can unconsciously alter the universe so it will make Kyon follow certain thoughts and actions (let Taniguchi have lunch with him perhaps.....)
- If the thoughts of controlling everything and knowing what will happen make her bored, she can unconsciously clear her memories about that (like in Endless Eight)

Just because she created the world doesn't mean that the world has been determined though. The world influences Kyon's thoughts and behaviours, but that doesn't mean that he has absolutely no free will. If's not been made clear whether haruhi is God, or just someone with the ability to create, destroy or alter matter. Therefore even if Kyon and the others were removed from the world, that doesn't mean that they have definitely vanished completely. That's unknown.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

My whole point here is:
- Haruhi can create or alter the universe at her own will
- the whole universe affect what Kyon becomes, control his thoughts, control his minds, his actions
- then subsequently, Haruhi can unconsciously alter the universe so it will make Kyon follow certain thoughts and actions (let Taniguchi have lunch with him perhaps.....)
- If the thoughts of controlling everything and knowing what will happen make her bored, she can unconsciously clear her memories about that (like in Endless Eight)

Except in your version of the world, Haruhi is the only "person" in the universe. You can't "clear" boredom, it isn't a memory; it is the absence of memory. You can't remove a hole from the ground by digging further down, you have to fill it up with something.

And in Endless Eight, Haruhi was unhappy about the Summer. EVERY REBOOT. She obviously didn't magically make herself "happy".

You are making assumptions about Haruhi that blatantly contradicts the franchise now. It just isn't that convincing.

By the way, there IS a determined path, or at least one of them. Mikuru's future exists, at least except during Endless Eight. So Haruhi hasn't been changing the future every day; it would have made Mikuru's people impossible to function as manipulators of the Past.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

I love the foolish notion that characters in this series beyond Haruhi and possibly Big Mikuru have free will. The very existence of people from the future kills off any chance of that.

*e* And, of course, someone would edit their post to point that out while I'm typing this.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

I love the foolish notion that characters in this series beyond Haruhi and possibly Big Mikuru have free will. The very existence of people from the future kills off any chance of that.

*e* And, of course, someone would edit their post to point that out while I'm typing this.

The irony, is that the assumption has to be made that someone has to do the manipulating. But the people with the LEAST free will are actually the Time Travelers. At least those living in the present can decide what they want, even if the decision was pre-determined. Those from the future are stuck doing whatever their superiors told them to do from further up in time, without understanding WHY they even do certain things.

So if the Time travelers have no free will of their own, who is the one doing the manipulating then?

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Hence why I added the "possibly" to BM. As long as she's in the past, she can't do anything that could jeopardize her future. LM is a "past" version of the character, so she doesn't even have the luxury of being able to return to the future and regain said free will.

Any instance of Haruhi screwing around with time(such as the 3YA timequake) should be ample proof that she's exempt from it.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

I love the foolish notion that characters in this series beyond Haruhi and possibly Big Mikuru have free will.

It's not a foolish notion. I would say that your conception of free will (or the effects of a set future) is a bit off.

But that would lead into a potentially lengthy philosophical discussion that is outside the scope of this thread.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

The fact that there is a set future pretty much proves that free will doesn't really exist in the series.

... With the exception of people who are capable of changing history, such as Haruhi.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

The fact that there is a set future pretty much proves that free will doesn't really exist in the series.

The future is set by the choices that they would have made anyway even if it wasn't set. Hence, free will does exist in this series.

If you want to discuss it beyond that, please PM me.

[Ithekro]

So Haruhi has returned to her true form in terms of her fan base. Debates of philosophical and religion's interpritations of what is a god, what is a human, what is free will? Yep, that's Haruhi alright.

I can see Eastern and Western philosophy and religions clashing heavily in this rolling debate on free will and the nature of Haruhi as a god. I can even see monotheist and polytheisist notions butting heads in the nature of a god that is called Haruhi.

On basic thing of note...it is Itsuki's group's theory that she's a god. The other groups don't see her that way. Just a being with a large amount of power. Sort of like the older Star Trek versions of gods...a being or alien that is more evolved that humans, but not the creator of all things...(mainly, from what I can understand Star Trek revolves around the notion that there is no such thing as God, and that rational people can make their own choices and don't need religion to tell them what to do...at least in the old Star Trek)...and certainly not something to worship.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

So Haruhi has returned to her true form in terms of her fan base. Debates of philosophical and religion's interpritations of what is a god, what is a human, what is free will? Yep, that's Haruhi alright.

I can see Eastern and Western philosophy and religions clashing heavily in this rolling debate on free will and the nature of Haruhi as a god. I can even see monotheist and polytheisist notions butting heads in the nature of a god that is called Haruhi.

On basic thing of note...it is Itsuki's group's theory that she's a god. The other groups don't see her that way. Just a being with a large amount of power. Sort of like the older Star Trek versions of gods...a being or alien that is more evolved that humans, but not the creator of all things...(mainly, from what I can understand Star Trek revolves around the notion that there is no such thing as God, and that rational people can make their own choices and don't need religion to tell them what to do...at least in the old Star Trek)...and certainly not something to worship.

I'm a big Star Trek fan, and it has never struck me as that strongly atheistic. In fact, I never saw Star Trek as having much to say concerning the existence of God, one way or the other.

Star Trek, in my view, revolves around the notion that advanced technology, a desire for humanity's scientific advancement, respect and toleration for all beliefs and universal outlooks (consider how the Bajorans and their faith is handled in DS:9), and a greater concern for one's fellow man, can lead to an adventurous and promising prosperous future.


Now, as far as Haruhi is concerned... yes, Yuki and Mikuru see her primarily as a being with a large amount of power. However, that power has an universal bearing and immense importance for humanity as a whole. It's quite possible that Itsuki's theories are at least seriously considered by one or both of Yuki and Mikuru.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Absolute power can't get you everything. Not when it means you can't get someone to serve you willingly. You automatically lose this way, on the principle of it.

Reminds me of that episode of Star Trek with the female Q who wanted Riker to love her, but he of course was only interested in her as a comrade. She briefly took away his free will and made him worship her, but almost immediately realized that it didn't mean much of anything and that she'd made a huge mistake. Of course I'm lead to wonder if Haruhi is a complex enough character to ever have a side of her that can fully acknowledge when she's done something wrong. This episode raises the question on that front, but I can't imagine it ever being tackled let alone answered.

[mokuseimaru]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

I love the foolish notion that characters in this series beyond Haruhi and possibly Big Mikuru have free will. The very existence of people from the future kills off any chance of that.

*e* And, of course, someone would edit their post to point that out while I'm typing this.

If this was the case, the future wouldn't even bother interfering in the past, because there would be no possibility of divergence. As they see it, if they don't go back and do the things that they were supposed to have done, an entirely new future would be created.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

If this was the case, the future wouldn't even bother interfering in the past, because there would be no possibility of divergence. As they see it, if they don't go back and do the things that they were supposed to have done, an entirely new future would be created.

... Awesome point. Can't believe that slipped my mind entirely until you just mentioned it.

[RedWing]

This episode was really good. However I was wondering about the Free Will argument and tbh I don't know how the show treats time travel but wouldn't the existence of time-travellers severely limit the any idea of free will? For example if Older Mikuru was to kill her younger self?

P.S Just looking on the list for what makes a sociopath surprised me of how much Haruhi fits the mould.

Factor 1: Aggressive narcissism

1. Glibness/superficial charm(Not sure what this is tbh lol)
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
3. Pathological lying
4. Cunning/manipulative
5. Lack of remorse or guilt
6. Emotionally shallow
7. Callous/lack of empathy
8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2: Socially deviant lifestyle

1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
2. Parasitic lifestyle (To a certain extent)
3. Poor behavioral control
4. Promiscuous sexual behavior
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals (Not to sure on this one - show doesn't elaborate)
6. Impulsiveness
7. Irresponsibility
8. Juvenile delinquency
9. Early behavioral problems (Not sure)
10. Revocation of conditional release

[Roger Rambo]

With regards to #5, apparently when Haruhi talked with the school councilor she outlined some rather outlandish career ideas.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

If this was the case, the future wouldn't even bother interfering in the past, because there would be no possibility of divergence. As they see it, if they don't go back and do the things that they were supposed to have done, an entirely new future would be created.

Yes, because they are bound by the knowledge that they have done so, so they have to go do those things. They physically cannot just sit on their arse and go "oh well, it'll all turn out in the end".

The future says they have to do these things so they do them.

Originally Posted by RedWing

but wouldn't the existence of time-travellers severely limit the any idea of free will? For example if Older Mikuru was to kill her younger self?

Exactly. Can't happen.

The fact that she can't do this precludes any possibility of free will. I don't see how anyone can argue this.

Just because an idea doesn't fit with your pretty little worldview does not mean you should automatically reject it.

Originally Posted by RedWing

P.S Just looking on the list for what makes a sociopath surprised me of how much Haruhi fits the mould.

No. Please, do not bring this up again. This is one of the things you should never bring up in a discussion about Haruhi, ever. Please.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by RedWing

This episode was really good. However I was wondering about the Free Will argument and tbh I don't know how the show treats time travel but wouldn't the existence of time-travellers severely limit the any idea of free will? For example if Older Mikuru was to kill her younger self?

You're confusing "free will" and "time paradox" here.
Free will is "can Older Mikuru decide by herself to kill or not to kill her younger self ?" (regardless of it being a great or horrible decision, and regardless of her actually doing it or not, it's only about the possibility for her to take it).
Time paradox is "what would happen if Older Mikuru would kill her younger self ?".

(I'm aware that for some people, the fact that a set person exists in the future is tantamount to saying that free will doesn't exist, but the whole argumentation seems to mainly hang on a very dumb oversimplification/misunderstanding of the concept)

Factor 1: Aggressive narcissism

1. Glibness/superficial charm(Not sure what this is tbh lol)
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
3. Pathological lying
4. Cunning/manipulative
5. Lack of remorse or guilt
6. Emotionally shallow
7. Callous/lack of empathy
8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2: Socially deviant lifestyle

1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
2. Parasitic lifestyle (To a certain extent)
3. Poor behavioral control
4. Promiscuous sexual behavior
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals (Not to sure on this one - show doesn't elaborate)
6. Impulsiveness
7. Irresponsibility
8. Juvenile delinquency
9. Early behavioral problems (Not sure)
10. Revocation of conditional release

Why do you think so many people call her a sociopath ? ^^

And there is some you could add :
- Parasitive lifestyle : her lifestyle is based on vampirizing others to fuel her fun.
- Promiscuous sexual behaviour (two words : Mikuru harassment).

"Lack of realistic, long-term goals" is definitely here (except if you count "looking for aliens" as a realistic goal for someone who is supposed to live in our world), "early behavourial problems" seems proved by BLR, and "Cunning/manipulative" is definitely arguable - it's only her brazen and direct personality that prevent her to use it in a more widespread manner, but it shows when she blackmails people.

In fact, it seems that the author actually looked up the definition of a sociopath, and created Haruhi according to it, rather than the other way around

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by RedWing

P.S Just looking on the list for what makes a sociopath surprised me of how much Haruhi fits the mould.

Factor 1: Aggressive narcissism

2. Grandiose sense of self-worth

Deep down inside, I don't think that Haruhi is this. I think that Haruhi as a strong sense of entitlement, but it's not quite the same thing. I don't think that Haruhi views herself as particularly special. She wants to be special, but she doesn't feel that way... which is a big reason for why she searches for what she considers truly special.

5. Lack of remorse or guilt

I think that she feels guilty at times, but she's just too emotionally insecure to admit when she's wrong. She fears that if she admits error that it may cost her the support of her Brigade.

So... that takes out a couple, I think, and it doesn't really leave enough to call her "aggressively narcissistic".