Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 02 Discussion/Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Another pretty good episode imo. One of the nice things about the Exia is that it can't sit and spam beams like Freedom and S-F because it only has the one gun, lol. This way Setsuna actually has to move and use skills rather than just shoot at mindless grunts who can't dodge, use shields, or aim for their lives. (well, the grunts in 00 may not be able to dodge either, but how the heck are you supposed to dodge in those slower-than-molasses mechs? )

Yes, instead, Setsuna has to go up mindless grunts who can't dodge or use shields for their lives. They are, however, very good shots. Too bad they keep aiming for Exia's shield. (A challenging target, to be sure, but how about going for the head or legs?)

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I haven't seen anybody bring it up yet, but the world of 2307 doesn't seem to be in the midst of any major war. All three power blocs are at peace except for relatively minor conflicts.

I felt that the fact that AEU's ace boasted of mock battles and came across as being relatively inexperienced, only if good in technical abilities was already an indicator that 00 was more of a Cold War setting than anything else.

With minor conflicts, technological advancements, among other things, the setting indicates that it's really nothing more than a political game to maintain their status quo while trying to edge out advantages to their own interest without risking breaking treaties and making unnecessary enemies.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, instead, Setsuna has to go up mindless grunts who can't dodge or use shields for their lives. They are, however, very good shots. Too bad they keep aiming for Exia's shield. (A challenging target, to be sure, but how about going for the head or legs?)

Their shields are shoulder-mounted, and they are too very very slow to dodge or use those shields properly. Hell, it can barely land a hook on Exia. Patrcik? Well, he was an idiot.

We'll see if Graham is mindless in Ep.3.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, instead, Setsuna has to go up mindless grunts who can't dodge or use shields for their lives. They are, however, very good shots. Too bad they keep aiming for Exia's shield. (A challenging target, to be sure, but how about going for the head or legs?)

Okay, I pointed this out in my original post (which you even quoted), but apparently I need to do it again:

Exactly what kind of dodging ability do these grunt mechs have? Just look at how the grunts in episode 2 run and walk, and you'll have your answer: virtually none. Those mechs aren't even fast enough to dependably dodge fire from other grunts.

And well, that sniper didn't aim for the Exia's shield. Setsuna blocked the shot with his shield. As in, moved his shield into the path of the shell.

And with those slow reaction times, shields are pretty much useless against the Gundams too. (I wouldn't even give those little shoulder things the worth of being a shield anyway, let alone against a blade that can slice through their armor like a hot knife through butter as was quite well displayed in episode 2)

[ckthye86]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

The thing with the gundams before now is that they had soul. Wing Zero was its own badassery, as was Epyon, but Freedom/Justice/SF/IJ were more extensions of their pilots than they were gundams. And that's why the Lacus Dust was so cool, because it was a deus ex with soul as opposed to 00, which doesn't try to hide anything. In that show, the gundams are nothing more than machines, the pilots so far have very VERY little personality, and it seems that the producers are going through a checklist.

Protag with blue gundam and troubled past? Check.
Fanservice? Check.
Deus Ex? Check.
Multiple gundams? Check.
Haro? Check.
Roody poo crew of mothership? Check.

It feels lifeless.

It's not so much the deus ex I care about but the characters behind it. Frankly, I thought Kira was cool as hell. We saw him start out as an everyday shy guy thrust into a bad situation, go through hell, get healed by a goddess, pwn up, hit another bump from the past, get healed completely and ascend, and then pwn everything in sight except for a reason to introduce SF (god forbid that characters simply decide to upgrade a gundam!).

So far, all I see is style but no substance.

The best animes have their settings as semantics and details. You could take GS/GSD and make it into a medieval fantasy and it'd work basically just as well. Gundam 00? Yes, we see battles, but it has none of the substance that you so look for when you like to hear gundam pilots screaming at each other over the com channels...

Gundam 00 for me has scored a 2 and 6 on the episodes because it just gave us flash and bang, without even naming some of the characters on screen yet!

I'll take a liking to the GG particles when I take a liking to the people using them, and a silent emo, mr. holy-in-an-airplane, mr. laid-back, and mr. trap so far don't work for me.

Well, I think your liking to GS/GSD is too much until you view Gundam 00 with a profound bias.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Okay, I pointed this out in my original post (which you even quoted), but apparently I need to do it again:

Exactly what kind of dodging ability do these grunt mechs have? Just look at how the grunts in episode 2 run and walk, and you'll have your answer: virtually none. Those mechs aren't even fast enough to dependably dodge fire from other grunts.

So? I'm not criticizing their inability to dodge. I'm just saying, they're not any better or worse than CE grunts in that respect. (As far as I'm concerned, nobody at all should be able to dodge a beam or canon shell, but that doesn't make for cool anime, I guess.)

Same thing for the shields.

And well, that sniper didn't aim for the Exia's shield. Setsuna blocked the shot with his shield. As in, moved his shield into the path of the shell.

I'm not talking about any particular shot. I'm saying, every time I see Exia shot at, even if he doesn't move in any particular way, the shots will land on his tiny shield. Why do they even aim for the torso, which can be covered by the shield, anyway? How about shooting his legs off, and see what he does?

[Nvis]

Which is why I hope the white-hair HRL rewrites Gundam history by kicking Gundam arse with a much inferior unit.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm not talking about any particular shot. I'm saying, every time I see Exia shot at, even if he doesn't move in any particular way, the shots will land on his tiny shield. Why do they even aim for the torso, which can be covered by the shield, anyway? How about shooting his legs off, and see what he does?

Hmmm... I'm not sure what you're talking about.

In episode one, Exia made the efforts to actually block those machinegun shots with its shield, and simply avoided others it couldn't block (like when a Hellion tried to shoot him from behind, only for Exia to dodge. Note that the shot nearly hit his right forearm). And in two, none of the Ground Type Tierens we see actually landed a shot at the Exia. The artillery shell that did hit, Setsuna clearly blocked when Exia raised its kite shield.

So I don't see what you're saying here, when clearly the enemies we see engaging the Exia are clearly aiming for center mass, and it was only Setsuna's dodging and blocking that saved him from damage. So no, it's not a case of "enemy homing on shield bullets" in this case.

And soldiers are always trained to aim for center mass, aka the torso, since not only is it the largest target, but it's also easier to land a hit, and a direct hit would more or less bring down the enemy. Headshots, armshots and legshots are good at disabling the enemy, but doing so in the heat of battle would require time and training, since the extremities are much more nimble and have a much smaller target profile than the torso.

We do know that the Tieren pilots can actually shoot at a MS' arms and legs, like the Tieren that shot an Amph's legs just before the Exia arrived. Of course, shooting a slow-moving Amph is a completely different matter from shooting off the arms and legs of the more agile Exia, and in such a case it's much easier to simply shoot at the largest part of the Exia, rather than gamble on trying to shoot off its legs.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Nvis

Which is why I hope the white-hair HRL rewrites Gundam history by kicking Gundam arse with a much inferior unit.

Zechs has already done that time and again in Gundam Wing by beating everyone in the Tallgeese, which IIRC, was as a whole the worst mobile suit of the five original gundams and itself. Oh, wait, he even dunked Heero's Wing Gundam with a stupid little Leo

Originally Posted by ckthye86

Well, I think your liking to GS/GSD is too much until you view Gundam 00 with a profound bias.

No, I gave GS/GSD a fair shake like I gave Fate/Stay Night, Outlaw Star, Trigun, etc...

My standards are high, because I don't exactly have time to watch every single anime out there.

So far, if not for this board, I would have had a good chance of dropping gundam 00 like a bad habit. Right now, I simply watch the new episodes out of sheer boredom than actually looking forward to them like I did with GS/GSD/Wing. Yes, Wing.

[Nvis]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Zechs has already done that time and again in Gundam Wing by beating everyone in the Tallgeese, which IIRC, was as a whole the worst mobile suit of the five original gundams and itself. Oh, wait, he even dunked Heero's Wing Gundam with a stupid little Leo

Well, the Leo thing was suicidal. And Tallgeese wasn't that inferior when it was made by the same scientists that made the Gundams. And the speed is better, if I remember correctly.

[Ledgem]

It's a bit boring at this point. Then again, if this series is really going to be 50-some episodes long, they can take their time setting up. This episode explained the political situation and standing of the world; as we go on I'm sure we'll learn more about the Gundam Meisters, Celestial Being, and so on. Hopefully it'll be worth it. As others have remarked in this thread, with the exception of Lockon (favorite character so far) the others have some pretty flat personalities. The animation, overall detail, and action sequences are excellent. I think I'll find the series more enjoyable once we know what's going on and things start advancing. That's not uncommon for many anime series, after all.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Yeah I understand this, but Marina making that brief appearance in episode 1 kinda throws this idea off. Plus, while of course an OP isn't the bible of how an anime will go, Lacus only appeared in three quick shots in the GSEED 1st OP, while Marina is far more prominent in the 1st Gundam 00 OP, so a person watching both shows for the first time would expect a little more importance from Marina than Lacus, at least for the first part of the series.

How about you wait and see how involved she is in the first 13 episodes before you say she was too prominent in the first OP. They introduced a lot of characters and factions with the first two episodes as well as trying to explain the current situation. I'm pretty sure Marina will be a top tier (or just under) character in regards to screen time by the ed of the first cour.

Nice to see the second episode rating stay consistant, though I guess the real test is when the 4th season of Major starts. Also maybe I can't see it because I'm also watching Ninomiya-kun this season but aside from having big tits (so we can tell she's a girl and not a guy!) what's the issue with Liu Mei and fanservice?

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So? I'm not criticizing their inability to dodge. I'm just saying, they're not any better or worse than CE grunts in that respect. (As far as I'm concerned, nobody at all should be able to dodge a beam or canon shell, but that doesn't make for cool anime, I guess.)

Same thing for the shields.

My point in my reply to you and in my original post was that the grunt mechs in CE actually have good mobility and dodging ability, yet when Kira shows up in the Freedom and S-F, that ability goes away. However, in 00, there's actually a believeable reason for why the ground pounders can't dodge, i.e. the lack of mobility in their mobile suits. (bit of a contradiction, lol)

I'm not talking about any particular shot. I'm saying, every time I see Exia shot at, even if he doesn't move in any particular way, the shots will land on his tiny shield. Why do they even aim for the torso, which can be covered by the shield, anyway? How about shooting his legs off, and see what he does?

Exactly what Lowegear said. The torso is far more crucial and easier to hit than any of the extremities with the exception of the head and soldiers are trained with this idea, making it the primary target unless the shooter is simply trying to disable his/her target.

Originally Posted by Westlo

How about you wait and see how involved she is in the first 13 episodes before you say she was too prominent in the first OP. They introduced a lot of characters and factions with the first two episodes as well as trying to explain the current situation. I'm pretty sure Marina will be a top tier (or just under) character in regards to screen time by the ed of the first cour.

Okay, you seem to be misunderstanding my point. I never once said she is too prominent in the OP. I said that I was surprised that she hasn't fully appeared yet despite her prominence in the OP. Two very different things there.

[Westlo]

I see what you mean but with such a massive cast as well as having to explain the story/factions, in addition to CB announcing themselves as a new player on the world stage. It's probably wise not to focus on a character we will eventually see a lot of. The captain and Liu Mei haven't had that much more screen time than Marina (a minute compared to 10 seconds) but from a plot POV they have had reasons for having more screen time.

And it's only been 2 episodes.....

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

My standards are high, because I don't exactly have time to watch every single anime out there.

Now that's what I don't understand....you even have time to watch GSD <_<

@Anh_Minh: How can you aim for a leg or arm with an ARTILLERY?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

@Anh_Minh: How can you aim for a leg or arm with an ARTILLERY?

Precisely. The terien long-range was not a sniper unit. The pilot did his best, scoring a directly hit. Any normal MS that the gun was designed to destroy would have exploded by now.

Teriens are powerful weapons. But these mass-produced units are armed and armoured with equipment that are only good enough against enemies the designers had foreseen.

The grunts can shoot straight. They also acted professionally, and fought as trained soldiers. Yes, there is a huge technological gap between them and Gundams, but that is suppose to happen. What makes it different in 00 than the past Series efforts, is that I don't feel I could have done a better job fighting back.

The grunts in 00 are not stormtroopers; the couldn't win with what they got, not because they are somehow brain-damaged.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

I felt that the fact that AEU's ace boasted of mock battles and came across as being relatively inexperienced, only if good in technical abilities was already an indicator that 00 was more of a Cold War setting than anything else.

My thoughts exactly. Which in turn begs the question of what war Celestial Being was talking about eradicating - a future conflict (which ironically, their actions are likely to set off), war in general, or the very concept of war?

Originally Posted by LoweGear

And soldiers are always trained to aim for center mass, aka the torso, since not only is it the largest target, but it's also easier to land a hit, and a direct hit would more or less bring down the enemy. Headshots, armshots and legshots are good at disabling the enemy, but doing so in the heat of battle would require time and training, since the extremities are much more nimble and have a much smaller target profile than the torso.

While this may be true for infantry, it's a very different story for tank gunners. They are trained to shoot at the most vulnerable part of a target vehicle.

Originally Posted by LoweGear

We do know that the Tieren pilots can actually shoot at a MS' arms and legs, like the Tieren that shot an Amph's legs just before the Exia arrived.

Happening to hit a target, and specifically aiming at it are different concepts. At this point we know nothing about Tieren pilots' level of training so it's a little early to speculate on this point.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

@Anh_Minh: How can you aim for a leg or arm with an ARTILLERY?

Easily. Modern artillery has excellent accuracy when deployed in a direct-fire mode. Exia's limbs would make for larger targets than a modern main battle tank.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The grunts can shoot straight. They also acted professionally, and fought as trained soldiers. Yes, there is a huge technological gap between them and Gundams, but that is suppose to happen. What makes it different in 00 than the past Series efforts, is that I don't feel I could have done a better job fighting back.

The grunts in 00 are not stormtroopers; the couldn't win with what they got, not because they are somehow brain-damaged.

It's a little hard to tell at this point since the Tierens didn't employ particularly good tactics (to be honest, the Gundams didn't either).

[lubczyk]

Didn't Lacus in the original SEED not show up until episode 5?

I don't see what's the problem with Marina not showing up in 00 until like episode 15.

If we get to episode 25 with her finally showing up, then we might have a problem.

Most Gundam series of such lenght (52) episodes tend to drag at some parts. I really don't like that aspect of Gundam.

I mean I really enjoyed 08th MS Team because there was something going on all the time.

I fear that we might start getting clipshows sooner or later.

I don't understand the need for people to be remined what happened the last couple of episodes.

I just hope the tension starts building soon and keeps up.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

While this may be true for infantry, it's a very different story for tank gunners. They are trained to shoot at the most vulnerable part of a target vehicle.

That's true. Modern tank gunners though are still hitting the center mass of the tank, since that's where its vulnerable points are (the top and the rear).

Originally Posted by 4tran

Happening to hit a target, and specifically aiming at it are different concepts. At this point we know nothing about Tieren pilots' level of training so it's a little early to speculate on this point.

Good point.

[KiNA]

Excuse me? How do the general consensus here come to the conclusion there aren't a big war brewing out there?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's a little hard to tell at this point since the Tierens didn't employ particularly good tactics (to be honest, the Gundams didn't either).

What I am praising wasn't presence of good tactics, but the absence of stupid tactics. The Terien pilot obviously was expecting Excia to be destroyed by a direct hit from his cannon, shielded or not, like everything else he had ever fought against. And I think we can safely claim he was shocked that Exia successfully blocked. (Note that it blocked; it was obviously a sufficent threat to the Gundam)

Aiming for a weak point only matters if you think your gun can't kill it with one hit.

Originally Posted by Kira_Naruto

Excuse me? How do the general consensus here come to the conclusion there aren't a big war brewing out there?

Because of Patrick, mostly. The Europe's greatest "ace"'s claim to fame was being a wargames champion.

That, and the fact that there was panic in Europe about how their extra mobile suits were exposed by Excia, hurting their international reputation for breaking an arms treaty. If there was open-war, there would have been no restrictions on mobile-suit numbers anywhere.
(Note also that from the setting, the treaty is probably ignored by all the nations anyway. But the very fact that it still exists on paper means peace still stands, though on a knife's edge.)