Macross Frontier Character Discussion - Ranka Lee

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Well...I could talk about the email from Shaloom that I received the other day...

Or else we could argue about who's hand is shown in the trailer...

Well if it's related to the person, why not?

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

If it's not an apology for making you waste money and time on his fabricated lies, then it's just an e-mail about more lies.

The latter, I'm afraid.

Saying that he got all his information from 2chan rumors (I replied that he was either lying about the information, or lying about how he got the information. Either way, somewhere along the line, he lied, and thus the "Poor Shaloom" card doesn't work), and that I was merely being used by Iker and Bauhaus45 (the other Macross Generation Mods) to "sow discord." So he pities me as well as himself. I LOL'd.

[Snowblind]

I suspect he's convinced himself that he really is the wronged party at this point. O.o

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

The latter, I'm afraid.

Saying that he got all his information from 2chan rumors (I replied that he was either lying about the information, or lying about how he got the information. Either way, somewhere along the line, he lied, and thus the "Poor Shaloom" card doesn't work), and that I was merely being used by Iker and Bauhaus45 (the other Macross Generation Mods) to "sow discord." So he pities me as well as himself. I LOL'd.

Funny thing is that I didn't even need to read the e-mail to know what it was about. That's actually pretty sad and speaks volumes of what type of person he's been revealed as.

I pity you too

Originally Posted by Snowblind

I suspect he's convinced himself that he really is the wronged party at this point. O.o

I think that's a mental problem. He should go see a doctor of some sort.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

And yet no one changes their mind. Funny, huh?

Sometimes, hashing out an idea with someone who has a completely different opinion than your own gives you new insights or helps you express yourself more clearly. There's less room for growth if everyone around you unconditionally accepts whatever you say.

In that sense, it isn't so much about changing someone else's mind, as it is about changing your own.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

Hi Makina Hoshimura:

Welcome to the forum!!!..one advice tho, if you plan to make comment frequently in this macross thread, then you have to have an opened mind lol..I mean, don't take things too personally..as you see, we are in a mess here right now lol, and if, one day you find yourself got offended, take my advice, take a deep breath and ignore those posts.

Uh, really, we are in a mess? How so? Because people are exchanging information and viewpoints? This latest debate has never even once reached the point of getting personal ( besides me not catching on soon enough that Banishing Book really didn´t know what he was writing... literally ).

I can remember dozens of other debates where we got into a real mess. This is just calm conversation about each others viewpoints.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

@Magnus: Did they say that every text conversation between Alto and Ranka in ep. 4 was all about her hopes and fears? I must've missed that.

Yep. They texted exactly twice. One time it was Ranka texting at Alto about how she got into the Miss Macross contest and that he´d, pretty please, come. The second time it was him sending her a quite short note of encouragment during the contest.

The next time we see them texting is in episode five, when Ranka is several times trying to call him up to help her with Ozma.

Ergo sum, it´s just the same as always... she is talking about herself to Alto.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

Which wasn't the case here. Hurray for everyone.

If Leon wouldn´t have had his own counterplan to Graces, nobody but Ranka, Brera and Grace would have known where the Vajra planet is, and Grace would be god-emperor of the galaxy. Tell me again how this would have worked out just fine, without a very very hefty dose of luck on behalf of Ranka and everybody else?

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

The latter, I'm afraid.

Saying that he got all his information from 2chan rumors (I replied that he was either lying about the information, or lying about how he got the information. Either way, somewhere along the line, he lied, and thus the "Poor Shaloom" card doesn't work), and that I was merely being used by Iker and Bauhaus45 (the other Macross Generation Mods) to "sow discord." So he pities me as well as himself. I LOL'd.

Pardon me, he really tried to say he got all those super-detailed radio shows from 2chan rumors? Does he think we are brain dead? Incredible.

[cheesie]

Hmm, it looks like I've trained the waifu well. Swamp is almost moe. Almost.

Anyway, yes, you'll find that you'll often learn something new from the people you disagree with the most. However, this often gets lost in several distractions, especially in shipping issues when it becomes more provocative. There's that certain mentality that denotes one has to beat down over the other as a show of support for their respective sides, so as a result, it becomes more about who's 'right' and 'wrong' and less on the opportunity of drawing from another perspective as well as reaching a reasonable consensus. It's very common in a lot of shipping fandoms, but not all fans are categorized that way, and you'll meet people who just wish to understand things from your side, so it'll be worthwhile to invest time in the discussions knowing that both sides just wants to get down to things without getting pissy.

Carry on.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yep. They texted exactly twice. One time it was Ranka texting at Alto about how she got into the Miss Macross contest and that he´d, pretty please, come. The second time it was him sending her a quite short note of encouragment during the contest.

The next time we see them texting is in episode five, when Ranka is several times trying to call him up to help her with Ozma.

Ergo sum, it´s just the same as always... she is talking about herself to Alto.

Hmmm...I'll have to rewatch the episode then. I recall getting the impression that they were texting a lot more than that...

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Pardon me, he really tried to say he got all those super-detailed radio shows from 2chan rumors? Does he think we are brain dead? Incredible.

Yep. And I'm but a pawn in Iker's sinister plot to take over.

Originally Posted by cheesie

Hmm, it looks like I've trained the waifu well. Swamp is almost moe. Almost.

Anyway, yes, you'll find that you'll often learn something new from the people you disagree with the most. However, this often gets lost in several distractions, especially in shipping issues when it becomes more provocative. There's that certain mentality that denotes one has to beat down over the other as a show of support for their respective sides, so as a result, it becomes more about who's 'right' and 'wrong' and less on the opportunity of drawing from another perspective as well as reaching a reasonable consensus. It's very common in a lot of shipping fandoms, but not all fans are categorized that way, and you'll meet people who just wish to understand things from your side, so it'll be worthwhile to invest time in the discussions knowing that both sides just wants to get down to things without getting pissy.

Carry on.

I agree with you. As I said, I think a lot of times, egos get involved, and it becomes a case of "My girl can ee farther than your girl" (or something like that).

The problem now is that I think both sides have made their points abundantly clear, and each side has found the other unconvincing. So we get locked in a cycle of repetition, which gets old and dull very, VERY quickly.

And then people get frustrated, and start insulting others, and...then we've got a mess on our hands.

It seemed like everyone had it pretty much contained until the movie trailer came out...I wonder if there's some solution that can be found before the movie itself arrives? I'd hate to see it all flare up in earnest again.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Hmmm...I'll have to rewatch the episode then. I recall getting the impression that they were texting a lot more than that...

Unless I´ve missed something, that´s as far as the texting went.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Yep. And I'm but a pawn in Iker's sinister plot to take over.

Oh, lol. Okay. I´ll look out when you are made an admin on the board which uses a language you don´t speak. ^^

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I agree with you. As I said, I think a lot of times, egos get involved, and it becomes a case of "My girl can ee farther than your girl" (or something like that).

The problem now is that I think both sides have made their points abundantly clear, and each side has found the other unconvincing. So we get locked in a cycle of repetition, which gets old and dull very, VERY quickly.

And then people get frustrated, and start insulting others, and...then we've got a mess on our hands.

It seemed like everyone had it pretty much contained until the movie trailer came out...I wonder if there's some solution that can be found before the movie itself arrives? I'd hate to see it all flare up in earnest again.

I´d say it is a natural result of such an emotional show as Macross Frontier. We are now at a stage at which the really high emotions have been behind us already. How the future develops is up to how the movie plays out, simple as that.

If Kawamori & co. go the DYRL route and work up a much more likeable Ranka, I think people would be fine, even if the triangle doesn´t swing their way. It´d largely depend on how Sheryl is portrayed in the movie, too... "The false Diva" doesn´t exactly make me look forward to that, to be honest.

All in all, speculating how to keep the board from flaring up again, even if we don´t yet know the slightest how the movie will play out, seems to be a bit premature. As soon as we get the first reports from Japan in November, I expect a lot of panic reactions to happen anyway, one way or the other.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Snowblind

And a letter is a good way of saying 'goodbye for now', which is what she was doing. She wasn't planning on coordinating some massive action with the SMS.

Which she should.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

Unless she learned how to pilot and had access to some sort of fighter or ship unbeknown to everyone who watched the series... she had to go with someone. And she didn't go with the intention of fighting, so no, she probably didn't think he'd get hurt...

I think this is where her naivety comes in.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

Which wasn't the case here. Hurray for everyone.

Actually, hold your hurray, for millions did not survive to see her return, and died as a result of her being alongside the Vajra. I wouldn't be so quick to cheer.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

Refresh my memory here?

Really? I think the answer is more than obvious.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

...Right, because everyone else always has things go according to plan...

You sure you can call that a plan?

Originally Posted by Snowblind

Only Ozma and Cathy were on the hit list (and with the backing of the SMS, they probably could have gone ahead with trying to expose Leon), the rest of the SMS was supposed to be folded into NUNS. They disobeyed orders and fled...

The crew also realized that Leon had assassinated the president and took a conscious objection.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

So we have Ozma and the Quarter crew taking their own paths, Alto taking his own path, and Ranka taking her own path, yet only one is vilified for it...

Because only one became the Vajra emulator, and only one managed to help kill millions in the process.

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I´d say it is a natural result of such an emotional show as Macross Frontier.

Ah...so any shrillness, outright imbecility, and lack of civility can be blamed, not on any particular members, but on THE SHOW ITSELF, for being so emotional.

"I can show no restraint, because the show is just TOO AWESOME!" Something like that, perhaps?

Originally Posted by magnuskn

We are now at a stage at which the really high emotions have been behind us already. How the future develops is up to how the movie plays out, simple as that.

If Kawamori & co. go the DYRL route and work up a much more likeable Ranka, I think people would be fine, even if the triangle doesn´t swing their way. It´d largely depend on how Sheryl is portrayed in the movie, too... "The false Diva" doesn´t exactly make me look forward to that, to be honest.

All in all, speculating how to keep the board from flaring up again, even if we don´t yet know the slightest how the movie will play out, seems to be a bit premature. As soon as we get the first reports from Japan in November, I expect a lot of panic reactions to happen anyway, one way or the other.

So Ranka has to be to your liking, and Sheryl must be as awesome as she ever was, or else the Ranka-Hate hissy-fits will start again with a vengeance.

That's quite a threat. I'm sure Yoshino is taking it into account.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by cheesie

Anyway, yes, you'll find that you'll often learn something new from the people you disagree with the most. However, this often gets lost in several distractions, especially in shipping issues when it becomes more provocative. There's that certain mentality that denotes one has to beat down over the other as a show of support for their respective sides, so as a result, it becomes more about who's 'right' and 'wrong' and less on the opportunity of drawing from another perspective as well as reaching a reasonable consensus.It's very common in a lot of shipping fandoms, but not all fans are categorized that way, and you'll meet people who just wish to understand things from your side, so it'll be worthwhile to invest time in the discussions knowing that both sides just wants to get down to things without getting pissy.

I don't think that the desire to "win" arguments is specifically related to shipping. For that matter, people rarely try to "reach a reasonable consensus" (whilst holding hands and skipping) in any debate.

The problem is moreso that most discussions get rejected on their premises themselves. If I open with the claim that "Nanase is a bad friend because she's secretly trying to steal Ranka's man", then Yot's obviously going to reject the premise about "Nanase trying to steal Ranka's man" because he sees the direction in which I'm taking my argument from the start. Taunting him until he ragequits isn't going to work very well, either (which is usually the tactic employed next, once people start to get frustrated).

The workaround to this is to state your premise in red start from your opponent's premise and show how it leads to a contradiction. This kind of thinking forces you to come up with new ways of expressing your ideas - if the other person can still find an escape route, then you're forced to think up new ways of making your arguments watertight.

But none of this is unique to shipping; this applies to any debate. I've a hunch that the specific "concern" directed towards shipping instead of the more "rational" debates over "which mecha has the largest epeen" has more to with the fact that the latter is more encoded in a masculine system of values than the former, but that's a story for another day.

No need to apologize on behalf of shippers, cheesie.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I agree with you. As I said, I think a lot of times, egos get involved, and it becomes a case of "My girl can ee farther than your girl" (or something like that).

While that's certainly one reason why people's emotions may get heated up, there's much more to it than that.

If you take a look at the early episodes, for example, it seems as if a lot of Ranka's misfortunes were indirectly caused by Sheryl. Likewise, Ranka's rise to success is juxtaposed against Sheryl's illness and fall from Grace, close to the end of the series. While you can't really blame either Sheryl or Ranka for this, the fact that there's isn't anybody to blame makes people tend to want to shift their anger on to the other girl. Unfortunately, you rarely see both girls flying high at the same time (perhaps by design).

As a result, turning points in the series, such as Ep. 10-12, and Ep. 19-21 tend to be places where a lot of backlash is generated, simply because it feels cathartic for fans of one girl or the other. If you want to get a better feel of this kind of thing, then just find a blog aggregator and trace your way through the episodes. It should illustrate how these kinds of viewpoints evolve.

Note that this happens even before we bring shipping into the picture. It simply comes with empathizing a lot with a given character.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Ah...so any shrillness, outright imbecility, and lack of civility can be blamed, not on any particular members, but on THE SHOW ITSELF, for being so emotional.

"I can show no restraint, because the show is just TOO AWESOME!" Something like that, perhaps?

Well, it´s quite seldom that such a fine lass as Sheryl comes along.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

So Ranka has to be to your liking, and Sheryl must be as awesome as she ever was, or else the Ranka-Hate hissy-fits will start again with a vengeance.

That's quite a threat. I'm sure Yoshino is taking it into account.

I´m sure he and Kawamori are. Not exactly because of ME, but because complaints about Ranka have been quite numerous... I´d seriously have to wonder what Kawamoris intent with Ranka really was ( i.e. was Crusader right about Ranka serving as a deconstruction of moe? ), if she´d remain unchanged in the movie.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Unless I´ve missed something, that´s as far as the texting went.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they texted more then what you initially thought. Before Alto and Ranka texted each other during the Miss Macross contest, they were constantly texting each other while Alto was training. We don't know exactly what the texts were about but it's pretty obvious that Alto was probably talking about his own difficulties with the training.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Actually, I'm pretty sure they texted more then what you initially thought. Before Alto and Ranka texted each other during the Miss Macross contest, they were constantly texting each other while Alto was training. We don't know exactly what the texts were about but it's pretty obvious that Alto was probably talking about his own difficulties with the training.

It only seems like Alto Received the texts, and rather then texting back, he went to sleep. It only shows 2 texts the entire episode too.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Actually, I'm pretty sure they texted more then what you initially thought. Before Alto and Ranka texted each other during the Miss Macross contest, they were constantly texting each other while Alto was training. We don't know exactly what the texts were about but it's pretty obvious that Alto was probably talking about his own difficulties with the training.

Like Foreshadow said above. I actually went back and checked the episode ( twice ) before responding to Gubaba. I´d recommend doing that next time, before posting.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

It only seems like Alto Received the texts, and rather then texting back, he went to sleep. It only shows 2 texts the entire episode too.

I thought that scene was made to show us how much they were getting along and how they were helping each other through their respective difficulties.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Like Foreshadow said above. I actually went back and checked the episode ( twice ) before responding to Gubaba. I´d recommend doing that next time, before posting.

I see, well I figured that I've watched the series so many times over that I have every seen memorized and it helps that we've gotten into our own little "discussions" before where I had to review certain scenes

[Snowblind]

Originally Posted by Tak

Which she should.

As my first point, which seems to have been excised from the discussion, pointed out... not everyone will come to the same conclusion. Just because she didn't do what you thought she should have doesn't make it wrong.

Originally Posted by Tak

I think this is where her naivety comes in.

And what is naivete but a lack of experience? Naivete isn't a crime. Look at her circumstances. She did the best she could with the knowledge she had.

Originally Posted by Tak

Actually, hold your hurray, for millions did not survive to see her return, and died as a result of her being alongside the Vajra. I wouldn't be so quick to cheer.

The hell...? "...died as a result of her being alongside the Vajra." Are we forgetting that Leon's 'battle plan' (if you want to blame someone who was supposed to have experience for lack of planning, look no further) was a full, head on assault on the Vajra homeworld? This wouldn't have been different if Ranka had been there or not. Vajra reacted no differently to the Frontier fleet than they did to Brera all alone... it was a defense mechanism... 'defend the homeworld'. Ranka's 'Minmay attack' was strictly Grace's doing. Ranka wasn't exactly a willing participant at that point (which should be obvious by Ep 24). Ranka wasn't being used to motivate the Vajra, she was being used to assert Grace's influence over them... and if it hadn't been Ranka, it would have been Sheryl in that position... don't forget why she was infected in the first place.

Originally Posted by Tak

Really? I think the answer is more than obvious.

Afraid not? Enlighten me.

Originally Posted by Tak

You sure you can call that a plan?

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck...
Yes of course it's a plan. Maybe not the best plan, maybe not the worst plan, or a plan you approve of, but it was a plan.

Originally Posted by Tak

The crew also realized that Leon had assassinated the president and took a conscious objection.

And rather than following proper channels, they fled (with good intentions... they were trying to get to the bottom of things... but good intentions are bad, bad, bad, bad. Right?). They could have gone to NUNS command at that point. That's all they did at the end...

Originally Posted by Tak

Because only one became the Vajra emulator, and only one managed to help kill millions in the process.

See above. Absolutely no difference in the Vajra reaction before or after Ranka's arrival. They were defending the homeworld against what was an all out military assault. What do you think they'd do? Just sit back and take it?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I thought that scene was made to show us how much they were getting along and how they were helping each other through their respective difficulties.

Only that it was Ranka sending text messages to Alto, not the other way around.

Okay, we can assume that Alto didn´t just ignore them but texted her back, but nowhere is it indicated that he send her messages talking about his problems. Which I´d find strange anyway, because Alto is a pretty reserved person... he talks about his feelings when prodded ( i.e. by Sheryl and Michael, most of the time ), but otherwise he is pretty stoic. Unless it comes to his father, when he is in combat or when his masculinity is questioned.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I see, well I figured that I've watched the series so many times over that I have every seen memorized and it helps that we've gotten into our own little "discussions" before where I had to review certain scenes

I won´t say that I´ve watched the whole series more than you, but certainly a number of episodes. Episodes 4 to 7 are the ones I have watched at least 20 times, each, since they were the ones which set up the whole relationship dynamic.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Only that it was Ranka sending text messages to Alto, not the other way around.

Okay, we can assume that Alto didn´t just ignore them but texted her back, but nowhere is it indicated that he send her messages talking about his problems. Which I´d find strange anyway, because Alto is a pretty reserved person... he talks about his feelings when prodded ( i.e. by Sheryl and Michael, most of the time ), but otherwise he is pretty stoic. Unless it comes to his father, when he is in combat or when his masculinity is questioned.

I see where you're coming from but it still is a possibility since we don't exactly know what the conversations were about. The texts could have just been casual topics for all we know.