Character Discussion - C.C

[GundamFan0083]

Destined_Fate wrote

It isn't bias, she literally says she doesn't love Lelouch and is just there for the ride when asked by Kallen. And no, I'm not using some bible as reference, I'm using the series and drama CDs(That you got if you bought the series). C.C. has never once said she loved Lelouch nor has Lelouch said he loves her and all the times C.C. has kissed him was when he was about to go somewhere dangerous, while the girls like Shirley and Kallen wanted to and have kissed him even when they didn't know he was going to be in danger. They just did it because they cared for him no matter what he was doing.

No it didn't and I already posted the damn clip from the anime.
CC doesn't NEED to say it.
Christ! Do you need to have the writer hold your damn hand and tell you every friggin detail to understand it?
You've never had a girlfriend have you?
I can tell.
Women don't come out and say "I love you" unless the moment is right.
They like to play games, and it's worse if they're confused about their feelings.
Okouchi is a master writer in this respect.
He has CC playing the part of a woman who knows she's in love, but is unsure if she should pursue it.
That's why in S1 she keeps telling Marianne, "you know I don't feel that way about him."
It's a classic trope of "Can Not Spit it Out."

Of course, using your logic, since Lelouch NEVER mentions being in love with Kallen, he clearly doesn't love her (using the "logic" you posted above).

I know it kills some Kalulus to have to admit that CC x Lelouch is the most popular pairing after Suzaku x Lelouch (yes, it was the most popular Geass pairing in Newtype Romance 2010 January issue).
But you're going to have to learn to deal with it.
The anime is crystal clear on this, there is no ambiguity as to the feelings of the women towards Lelouch.
Hell, even Milley and Kaguya have feelings for him.

This is why I go by the anime, and only the anime.
When you start adding in the extraneous materials everything starts becoming muddled and in some instants outright contradictory.

If you stick with the anime you see clearly that CC was in love with Lelouch by the end of Code Geass.
She's not a mother figure, a buddy, an accomplice, or any of that crap any more than Kallen is just his serving wench.
Both women loved Lelouch, and I maintain he loved them both as well, but chose CC because she couldn't die.
Whereas Kallen nearly died at the Damocles, among other occations.
This is the reason Lelouch let Kallen go at the end.
He didn't want her to die, you as a Kalulu should be well aware of that.
CC on the other hand stayed with him until the bitter end.
That's a cue from the writer, you're supposed to pick up on it.

[Destined_Fate]

Yes she does, especially when her response is pretty much "No, I don't love him. I'm here just for the ride.". So no, she didn't love Lelouch in that way just like she didn't love Mao in "that" way. Just because she hangs out with Lelouch doesn't mean she has to want to get in his pants and she has made it a point, more than once througout R1, R2, and the drama CDs, that she doesn't like Lelouch in "that" way while observing constantly that there is something between Kallen and Lelouch as well.

The thing is that there were plenty of moments to say "I love you", she never even tried to say it when they were alone or tried anything that would lead to that. C.C. never saw him in that light and was more of a motherly figure to him(Which means she does still care for him in a manner of speaking, just not in a way that she wants to be with him or love him as a lover would), which makes sense because she's extremely old and has already been through many lovers throughout her long life.

And no, sticking to the anime alone and C.C. saying multiple times that she doesn't love Lelouch like "that". It's her words not me making anything up. Are you saying that C.C. was lying the entire time and just never had a chance to open up? If that's the case than I call BS because there have been plenty of chances if she wanted anything more out of her contract with Lelouch which she clearly didn't.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Yes she does, especially when her response is pretty much "No, I don't love him. I'm here just for the ride.". So no, she didn't love Lelouch in that way just like she didn't love Mao in "that" way. Just because she hangs out with Lelouch doesn't mean she has to want to get in his pants and she has made it a point, more than once througout R1, R2, and the drama CDs, that she doesn't like Lelouch in "that" way while observing constantly that there is something between Kallen and Lelouch as well.

Using your logic, there is nothing between Lelouch and Kallen.
You cannot have it both ways.
Lelouch NEVER says he loves Kallen or even has feelings for her.
CC clearly has feelings for Lelouch as does Kallen, but to say that Lelouch had feelings for Kallen but not CC is simply ignorant.

The thing is that there were plenty of moments to say "I love you", she never even tried to say it when they were alone or tried anything that would lead to that. C.C. never saw him in that light and was more of a motherly figure to him(Which means she does still care for him in a manner of speaking, just not in a way that she wants to be with him or love him as a lover would), which makes sense because she's extremely old and has already been through many lovers throughout her long life.

So?
Okouchi obviously chose to make it subtle, he is far from the first author to do that.
Many other writers from all over the world do this type of thing.
Okouchi is simply using the same style of romantic expression.
No, she is not looking to be a motherly figure.
She is looking for someone to fulfill her wish, which was to be truly loved as made crystal clear at the end of episode 15 of R2.
Lelouch promises her to fulfill that wish, which means he actually loves her.
Stop trying to marginalize their relationship to fit your fantasy.

And no, sticking to the anime alone and C.C. saying multiple times that she doesn't love Lelouch like "that". It's her words not me making anything up. Are you saying that C.C. was lying the entire time and just never had a chance to open up? If that's the case than I call BS because there have been plenty of chances if she wanted anything more out of her contract with Lelouch which she clearly didn't.

She doesn't ever say she "doesn't like him like that."
All she says once to Marianne in S1 is that "you know I don't feel that way."
But that's S1, not the end of R2, where Kallen asks CC is she loves Lelouch and CC says "she doesn't know."
She doesn't know because her Geass was to have everyone love her.
True love is difficult for her, and she said so herself in C's world.
So if she "doesn't know" that is a clear indication she does in fact love him.
Again, stop trying to twist the situation into something it isn't.
You are wrong, and you will have to deal with it.

The drama CDs are useless.
Hell in one of them Suzaku actually proposes to Lelouch: I think that's "Shirley's Dream."
They're side materials for fans to get a kick out of.
Stop acting like they have any bearing on the official storyline.
There's also one where Lelouch pretends CC is his girlfriend when Suzaku bursts into his room.
Does that mean Lelouch loves CC because of the picture drama?
Hmmm?
No, it doesn't using only the picture dramas, so enough about them already.
Stick to the anime.

[azul120]

To be fair, some of the supplementals are canon (i. e. the Picture Dramas).

Heck, it was revealed through there that Lelouch had other options aside from Zero Requiem.

C. C. as I said in the other thread stayed with Lelouch because she had nothing to lose, unlike Kallen, rather than it be a sign that she was "loved" more.

I didn't mean to insinuate C. C. was less plausible, btw. It's just disingenuous to imply she was more viable than Kallen, at least the way things played out.

And I only made one cursory character couple characterization to Bleach there. Not an entire arc.

[Destined_Fate]

Not at all, using my logic there was everything between Kallen and Lelouch which the writers supported considering that pairing got the most screentime. And as I said in the ther topic we aren't going to change each others minds so we might as well end this on a note of agreeing to disagree.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Not at all, using my logic there was everything between Kallen and Lelouch which the writers supported considering that pairing got the most screentime. And as I said in the ther topic we aren't going to change each others minds so we might as well end this on a note of agreeing to disagree.

Screentime?
Do I have to go and add up all the time we see Lelouch with CC in tender moments verses the tender moments between Kallen and Lelouch?

For Kallen, tender moments equal ZERO.
CC, too many to list, from the time she moves in with Lelouch to the hangar on the Avalon is just one continuous bonding between CC and Lelouch.
That's the point you're supposed to get by the end of the show.
CC was a cold, heartless witch, who didn't care about anything at the begining of S1, by the end of R2 she was in love with Lelouch, he changed her and made her happy.
That's called love dear and it takes two-to-tango as the saying goes so it is clear Lelouch loved her as well.
When you get a girlfriend and you actually fall in love, you'll see what I mean and go "AH HAH!" that's what GundamFan meant.

[Destined_Fate]

I thought we were through with this, now you're just being petty.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by azul120

To be fair, some of the supplementals are canon (i. e. the Picture Dramas).

Heck, it was revealed through there that Lelouch had other options aside from Zero Requiem.

C. C. as I said in the other thread stayed with Lelouch because she had nothing to lose, unlike Kallen, rather than it be a sign that she was "loved" more.

I didn't mean to insinuate C. C. was less plausible, btw. It's just disingenuous to imply she was more viable than Kallen, at least the way things played out.

And I only made one cursory character couple characterization to Bleach there. Not an entire arc.

I realize that azul, but none of them support the idea that CC didn't love Lelouch.
You and I both know that, we've been discussing this since 2009.
Every angle of every pairing has been discussed on these boards.
It is clear that CC loved Lelouch and he her.
That does not eliminate Kallen from the harem Lelouch's heart yearned for, in fact it fits the personality that Okouchi portrayed Lelouch had in the anime.
CC's feelings are also clear.
She doesn't need to stay with Lelouch during ZR, and Kallen calls her on it during their fight.
Kallen knows CC loves Lelouch, and it pisses her off which I contend is why Kallen tries to kill Lelouch in the KMF hangar when CC uses the pink Lancelot to stop her.
It's also interesting that CC and Kallen change roles during their fight.
CC is amazing that she cares about winning whereas Kallen states it doesn't matter to her.
Kallen has become cold (at that point) like CC was, and CC has become caring like Kallen was.
Granted that only lasts until after Lelouch dies, but it was still interesting to see Okouchi put that role-reversal in there.

[TheAbyss]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Yes she does, especially when her response is pretty much "No, I don't love him. I'm here just for the ride.". So no, she didn't love Lelouch in that way just like she didn't love Mao in "that" way. Just because she hangs out with Lelouch doesn't mean she has to want to get in his pants and she has made it a point, more than once througout R1, R2, and the drama CDs, that she doesn't like Lelouch in "that" way while observing constantly that there is something between Kallen and Lelouch as well.

The thing is that there were plenty of moments to say "I love you", she never even tried to say it when they were alone or tried anything that would lead to that. C.C. never saw him in that light and was more of a motherly figure to him(Which means she does still care for him in a manner of speaking, just not in a way that she wants to be with him or love him as a lover would), which makes sense because she's extremely old and has already been through many lovers throughout her long life.

And no, sticking to the anime alone and C.C. saying multiple times that she doesn't love Lelouch like "that". It's her words not me making anything up. Are you saying that C.C. was lying the entire time and just never had a chance to open up? If that's the case than I call BS because there have been plenty of chances if she wanted anything more out of her contract with Lelouch which she clearly didn't.

Did we watch two different shows, sir? It seems you may have, seeing you keep saying C.C said she doesn't love him. She didn't say yes or no. She said "I don't know" And also I have listened to all the drama episodes and all of the picture dramas. I have the entire collection of them on my PS3. The sound episode 15.631 "A Women's battles" Kallen asks, "So do you love Zero or well..." C.C replies "Is it a carnal relationship, you mean?" "So you are his mistress! Kallen exclaims" C.C replies "No I am Zero's accomplice." She does not answer Kallen question about her loving Lelouch she just answers her question having a purely sexual relaionship. She avoids it. To be honest I believe Kallen affection for Lelouch is solely from the fact he was her hero. The infamous Zero. The Japan's last hope. Then to find out she actually knew him made her begin to "love" him. Admiration is all I see.

[azul120]

Kallen tried to kill Lelouch because he became the enemy of the world, not because she suddenly went yandere like so many seem to speculate, lol.

As I stated in the other thread, circumstances kept Kallen and Lelouch from having personal time together, save for the "return with me to Ashford" moment in Turn 10, and the heart to heart that came right before the betrayal.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by azul120

Kallen tried to kill Lelouch because he became the enemy of the world, not because she suddenly went yandere like so many seem to speculate, lol.

Doesn't matter, she still wanted to kill him.

As I stated in the other thread, circumstances kept Kallen and Lelouch from having personal time together, save for the "return with me to Ashford" moment in Turn 10, and the heart to heart that came right before the betrayal.

When did Okouchi say that?
Or are you simply extrapolating from the anime?
I'm not saying you're wrong azul, I just want to know how you know this because I don't see circumstances being the reason, unless you mean his Geass.
That was the main reason Lelouch rejected Kallen and ended any chance of their being together.
It is also the reason he chose CC in the end, she couldn't die and he was obviously in love with her.
So the choice between which of his harem he would keep by his side to the end was easy.

Originally Posted by TheAbyss

Did we watch two different shows, sir? It seems you may have, seeing you keep saying C.C said she doesn't love him. She didn't say yes or no. She said "I don't know" And also I have listened to all the drama episodes and all of the picture dramas. I have the entire collection of them on my PS3. The sound episode 15.631 "A Women's battles" Kallen asks, "So do you love Zero or well..." C.C replies "Is it a carnal relationship, you mean?" "So you are his mistress! Kallen exclaims" C.C replies "No I am Zero's accomplice." She does not answer Kallen question about her loving Lelouch she just answers her question having a purely sexual relaionship. She avoids it. To be honest I believe Kallen affection for Lelouch is solely from the fact he was her hero. The infamous Zero. The Japan's last hope. Then to find out she actually knew him made her begin to "love" him. Admiration is all I see.

That is an interesting take on their relationship.
I agree that in the begining, Kallen loved only Zero and that her love for Lelouch only developed because he was Zero.
Afterwards I think she grew to actually love Lelouch.

[TheAbyss]

Doesn't matter, she still wanted to kill him.



When did Okouchi say that?
Or are you simply extrapolating from the anime?
I'm not saying you're wrong azul, I just want to know how you know this because I don't see circumstances being the reason, unless you mean his Geass.
That was the main reason Lelouch rejected Kallen and ended any chance of their being together.
It is also the reason he chose CC in the end, she couldn't die and he was obviously in love with her.
So the choice between which of his harem he would keep by his side to the end was easy.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

That is an interesting take on their relationship.
I agree that in the begining, Kallen loved only Zero and that her love for Lelouch only developed because he was Zero.
Afterwards I think she grew to actually love Lelouch.

Possibly, but I believe it was one sided. The official book supposedly states that Kallen never captured Lelouch's heart. I tend to believe that. Not because of the I am a hardcore fan of C.C x Lelouch(even though I am) its because she was just a good friend and his ace in the hole. His best soldier in his disposal. So I'm pretty sure he cared for her in some way. Hell, he even asked for her to return to the school with him once everything is over. But, he didn't choose her in the end. He chose C.C and Suzaku.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

When did Okouchi say that?
Or are you simply extrapolating from the anime?
I'm not saying you're wrong azul, I just want to know how you know this because I don't see circumstances being the reason, unless you mean his Geass.
That was the main reason Lelouch rejected Kallen and ended any chance of their being together.
It is also the reason he chose CC in the end, she couldn't die and he was obviously in love with her.
So the choice between which of his harem he would keep by his side to the end was easy.

Given the circumstances, it hardly seems like Lelouch rejected her because of Geass. The much more obvious and reasonable explanation is that his life was going down the tube either way and he didn't feel the need to take anyone else with him (C.C. and Suzaku notwithstanding). He doesn't show any hint of trying to get rid of her before things take a nosedive, and C.C.'s presence, to be perfectly frank, is something he had no control over. He's rarely been able to keep her in check. I'm not trying to argue that he didn't have feelings for her, cause he clearly did, but the circumstances of who he chose and why are not so simple as you portray here.

[GundamFan0083]

I have to disagree.
Euphie died because of his Geass, Shirley's dad died, Shirley died, Rolo died, he nearly lost Nunnally because of it, etc.; I'd say what CC told him was accurate about Geass bringing only isolation.
I really don't see any other reason why he would have rejected Kallen accept to save her from the fate everyone else he loved had suffered due to his Geass.
CC was immune to it, so was Suzaku (due to his "live" command), therefore CC was the logical choice for Lelouch...or Suzaku if you wanna go that route.

[morbosfist]

Except rejecting her in that situation is independent of Geass. Geass has nothing to do with the fact that he doesn't intend to walk away from his plan. It's only what brought him to that point. He's rejecting her because it would only ruin her life to aid him. Suzaku is giving up his identity and C.C. can just disappear. There's no harm in them aiding him.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Except rejecting her in that situation is independent of Geass. Geass has nothing to do with the fact that he doesn't intend to walk away from his plan. It's only what brought him to that point. He's rejecting her because it would only ruin her life to aid him. Suzaku is giving up his identity and C.C. can just disappear. There's no harm in them aiding him.

I'll split the difference with you.
Lelouch pushed her away because he didn't want her getting hurt.
Do we agree there?

[Xagzan]

Oh wow, I didn't know people were discussing this this long after the anime ended. I guess that's the mark of a good show, huh?

I always just assumed C.C.'s feelings for Lulu were a given, by the end (and his for her, though less obviously if I remember correctly, as he played the role of Celibate Hero quite well). Not that I don't think he didn't have feelings for Kallen as well, but after everything that happened, he realized that with his vilification in the eyes of the world, the ZR, etc, he had to let her go, and for her own sake she couldn't be with him.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I'll split the difference with you.
Lelouch pushed her away because he didn't want her getting hurt.
Do we agree there?

Of course. That much is obvious.

[Yamiken]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

I have to disagree.
Euphie died because of his Geass, Shirley's dad died, Shirley died, Rolo died, he nearly lost Nunnally because of it, etc.; I'd say what CC told him was accurate about Geass bringing only isolation.
I really don't see any other reason why he would have rejected Kallen accept to save her from the fate everyone else he loved had suffered due to his Geass.
CC was immune to it, so was Suzaku (due to his "live" command), therefore CC was the logical choice for Lelouch...or Suzaku if you wanna go that route.

Actually, if you're including Suzaku there, you'll have to include Kallen as well. Remember that she was Geassed as early as the third episode, when Lelouch quizzed her about her role in the Shinjuku incident.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Yamiken

Actually, if you're including Suzaku there, you'll have to include Kallen as well. Remember that she was Geassed as early as the third episode, when Lelouch quizzed her about her role in the Shinjuku incident.

Hah!
Sorry I didn't make what I meant clear in my post.
I meant that the command put on Suzaku made it so that he would not get killed easily. The command Lelouch put on Super-Suzaku makes it so he will do anything to escape death.
Whereas the command on Kallen was simply to forget what Lelouch had said to her.