[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Dude, I was referring to your previous post (id=2873175) where you said EP6 giving us "crystal-clear" hints about what happened.

I understand you have formed your understanding of that scenes, but that scene definitely was not clear at all (readers have to speculate who Battler was really talking to. Who is the "mother"? Who is talking to Beatrice, and which Beatrice? Is it really 6 years ago?). Those who have not read the episode would regard your understanding as official answer since you said it was "crystal-clear".

Wait what are you talking about? You see Battler talking to Beatrice there. You are proabably thinking about another thing

Originally Posted by ijriims

Somehow I smelled Shkatrice theory here, when you say it is an "internal struggle". So you are buying it?

yes

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That makes no sense... after all it was made clear that the "allergy" to spiderweb is something that comes from japanese folklore and not from the western one. And only big sis Beatrice is affected by them.

True, I forgot about that. Anyway, it stands that Moetrice was affected by Natsuhi's mirror. There must be some significance to that. Also, if I remember correctly, Beatrice said in EP2 that mirror had something to do with Eastern Magic.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

In that regard there is absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that Shannon has always been seen loving George. Because the Shannon we see is a "furniture" that represents the love of George. The other part, the one that loves Battler, is represented by Beatrice.

I've considered that possibility too, but in the end, it's a bit confusing if we take into account the events in Rokkenjima. Let us go by the idea that Shannon loves George and Battler, why would she have started all this chain of events in which George has also been a victim? Even if she wasn't the mastermind, wouldn't she try to keep George safe as well? Battler always lasts until the end (except when Eva killed him), but George has only had that luck in EP1. Not to mention that, if Beatrice is Shannon, then she wants Battler to remember some sin, which is one of the reasons for all these murders, in which George has died.

Shannon would be quite the twisted person, if that's how it is. But well, I honestly cannot say that cannot be denied, and that'd be interesting.

[ijriims]

If you believe Shannon as Beatrice had not planned the killing at all but just have issued the first letter to Maria, but then someone took this opportunity and started killing people, then it could make sense.

Then who is the real mastermind? Of course you should now consider the one in my signature...

(I don't buy the hypothesis I stated above, just to give you some thoughts)

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Wait what are you talking about? You see Battler talking to Beatrice there. You are proabably thinking about another thing

I saw Battler talking to someone here, he could be answering question from George, Rudolf or whoever, even if it was Beatrice. Which Beatrice? (Moetrice? Real Beatrice? Meta-Beatrice? And the time is not specified.(1980? 1986?) Though the place should be Rokkenjima.

Then the monologue was more mysterious. Someone was talking to Beatrice. Again, the time is unknown. This someone could be Real Beatrice, Moetrice, Meta-Beatrice or 1967 Beatrice when I interpret the whole thing between Battler and two Beatrices as an analogy. The Beatrice could also be Real Beatrice, TrollBeatrice, Legend-Prank Beatrice.

There is so many possibilities here so I would not say it is crystal clear to me who is talking to who and in what time, it is not even clear whether the monologue was just happening in the meta-world but not the real world.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by ijriims

If you believe Shannon as Beatrice had not planned the killing at all but just have issued the first letter to Maria, but then someone took this opportunity and started killing people, then it could make sense.

It doesn't. Remember the letters with the password for the bank accounts and the letters in the bottles? They had Beatrice's handwriting in them.

Whoever Beatrice may be, even if she's not the mastermind or a murderer, she's definitely involved. I don't think Battler surviving until the end is just mere coincidence.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Used Can

It doesn't. Remember the letters with the password for the bank accounts and the letters in the bottles? They had Beatrice's handwriting in them.

Whoever Beatrice may be, even if she's not the mastermind or a murderer, she's definitely involved. I don't think Battler surviving until the end is just mere coincidence.

This is close to my response to the previous hypothesis I quoted (I read it somewhere else). Let's see how the author of that hypothesis respond to this counter-arguement so that I can answer you back.

Though I have to say the survival of Battler could be explained purely by coincidence as he was not as imprudent as Jessica (who ran to the VIP room in EP2), or urged by the want to see his lover (George in EP3), and he was staying in guesthouse during the first night (which would be very risky for the murderer trying to perform killing because everyone was close to each other).

Though I have to admit Beatrice kept Battler as the last test subject in EP4 for some sentiment reason, but she did not necessarily have to keep his life till the end. (My choice of Beatrice is not Shannon and Jessica, I say this in case you don't understand the reason in this paragraph)

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Though I have to say the survival of Battler could be explained purely by coincidence

Mate, there are 16-17 people in Rokkenjima who always die throughout the story, except for Battler who always lives until the end. This pattern always happens except when Eva killed him, and when he pretended to be dead in EP6. I'm sure his survival is everything but coincidence. They even made a point out of this in EP5.

[Kitsu]

First of all I still deny KShanon just to much of ...weirdness....
I mean why in the world would Shannon even create Kanon? Beatrice is understandable to some degree. 10 year old Shannon developed a huge crush on young Battler who told her that he actually like girls like Jessica more. Due her conflicts about being a servant and that stupid stuff Beatrice is created, a girl that fits all of Battler's exception.
But why Kanon?? because Shannon started to love Jessica as well ?! I don't really get it.
Also neither Kanon nor Shannon show any signs of DID or something similair. No memory loss for example. So only thing that makes you say it is that Kanon miracally appears where he want but to be honet I would buy Ninja!Kanon over DID Maid.
One persona seems resonable but three?
And why doesn't anyone help that poor girl. Having three personalities is cleary unhealthy.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Mate, there are 16-17 people in Rokkenjima who always die throughout the story, except for Battler who always lives until the end. This pattern always happens except when Eva killed him, and when he pretended to be dead in EP6. I'm sure his survival is everything but coincidence. They even made a point out of this in EP5.

I was only talking about EP1-4. For EP5, my opinion is that Beatrice intentioned to murder every Ushiromiyas other than Rudolf's family. Of course Battler must have survived till the end.

But EP1-4 were different. Beatrice's motive in EP1-4 was utterly different than in EP5 and 6. She did not preserve Battler's life till the end on purpose from EP1-3, just a bit in EP4 but not necessary to do so.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Also neither Kanon nor Shannon show any signs of DID or something similair. No memory loss for example.

It may be Magical DID. You know, just how Maria and Ange make friends out of stakes, bunny figures and other things, perhaps Shannon created Beatrice and Kanon, but instead of using objects like stakes, she used herself.

Originally Posted by ijriims

I was only talking about EP1-4.

So was I mate. What I said about EP5 was that, in that episode, it was pointed out how Battler was always kept alive until the end in all the games, and Virgilia hinted that was Beatrice's doing.

[Kitsu]

It may be Magical DID. You know, just how Maria and Ange make friends out of stakes, bunny figures and other things, perhaps Shannon created Beatrice and Shannon, but instead of using objects like stakes, she used herself.

Yeah but Kanon clearly walks around in his form and Shannon does that for herself as well. Means they also change their appearance visible for others. They exist visible for others. The stakes only change appearance for the believer never for others. The stakes and bunnys are for self-comfort only while Kanon/shannon do appear for everyone and influence the enviroment. Also the whole part of changing the cloth is weird. How the heck does that work?
They can't be aware of their DID magical or not because in their POV the remember talking to each other face to face, they don't think they share the same body therefore they shouldn't even try to dress up as one another.
The only way I accepted this thing was when it was still
"Kanon/Shannon died already and the survivor went a bit nuts and started to dress up as the other in his/her insanity and sorrow over the other ones death"
But as Kanon seems to be clearly created and never was a real person in taht case I really can't see how the clothes change takes place.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Used Can

So was I mate. What I said about EP5 was that, in that episode, it was pointed out how Battler was always kept alive until the end in all the games, and Virgilia hinted that was Beatrice's doing.

I don't know it is my misreading or yours.

I remebered that Battler hypothesized that Beatrice's motive was to have revenge, then he stated that a person's hatred to people should be in different degree. And the one with greatest vengence should be left by the culprit till the end. Then he said he was the one always left to the end, and he asked himself whether Beatrice kept her till the end since she wanted to revenge on Battler. Then Virgilia denied it.

I did not read the line that Virgilia said Beatrice kept Battler's life till the end on purpose, it was Battler's conjecture.

[Used Can]

I think we should leave that as a matter of interpretation, then.

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Yeah but Kanon clearly walks around in his form and Shannon does that for herself as well. Means they also change their appearance visible for others. They exist visible for others. The stakes only change appearance for the believer never for others. The stakes and bunnys are for self-comfort only while Kanon/shannon do appear for everyone and influence the enviroment. Also the whole part of changing the cloth is weird. How the heck does that work?
They can't be aware of their DID magical or not because in their POV the remember talking to each other face to face, they don't think they share the same body therefore they shouldn't even try to dress up as one another.

It works. You see, Shannon created Kanon through magic. So, whenever Kanon is supposed to show up, she also disguises herself as Kanon, in order to make the magic stronger. Her tits are probably fake.

Since it's magical DID, she can communicate with Kanon and Beatrice. In fact, each personality may show a different aspect of the real person.

Shannon: Shy, clumsy, kind-hearted, tolerant, naive.
Kanon: Pessimistic, anti-social, serious, immature
Beatrice: Strong-willed, knowledgeable, experienced

This also reflects on their love lives:

Shannon: Likes a weak guy like George
Kanon: Likes a girl who also has teenager issues
Beatrice: Likes a strong-willed guy like Battler

So far, soooo good.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I think we should leave that as a matter of interpretation, then.

It works. You see, Shannon created Kanon through magic. So, whenever Kanon is supposed to show up, she also disguises herself as Kanon, in order to make the magic stronger. Her tits are probably fake.

So far, soooo good.

Just that in EP3 the adults seemed to have found a non-existent Kanon's body in the chapel...

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Just that in EP3 the adults seemed to have found a non-existent Kanon's body in the chapel...

That's easy to get around. Shannon's was the first body they found. Then, they went around all over then mansion following the instructions and finding the other bodies, and then finally found Kanon last in the chapel. This way, Shannon had time to change into Kanon.

[Kitsu]

I hope you are being ironic.

It works. You see, Shannon created Kanon through magic. So, whenever Kanon is supposed to show up, she also disguises herself as Kanon, in order to make the magic stronger. Her tits are probably fake.

NOT THE TITS!
joking aside... I think you didn't get my point. KKanon and Shannon face each other directly, they see each other as different persons so why would Shannon dress up to make the magic stronger if she thinks Kanon is standing infront of her etc.

Shannon: Likes a weak guy like George

"For Shannon's and my love I'll make the whole world my enemy" Defeats Eva-Beatrice, is able to put up an barrier trough pure will power. Yes, George is so weak and a complete coward. Episode 6 shows how strong the resolve of Shannon and George is. You can't call that weak.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Used Can

True, I forgot about that. Anyway, it stands that Moetrice was affected by Natsuhi's mirror. There must be some significance to that. Also, if I remember correctly, Beatrice said in EP2 that mirror had something to do with Eastern Magic.


I've considered that possibility too, but in the end, it's a bit confusing if we take into account the events in Rokkenjima. Let us go by the idea that Shannon loves George and Battler, why would she have started all this chain of events in which George has also been a victim? Even if she wasn't the mastermind, wouldn't she try to keep George safe as well? Battler always lasts until the end (except when Eva killed him), but George has only had that luck in EP1. Not to mention that, if Beatrice is Shannon, then she wants Battler to remember some sin, which is one of the reasons for all these murders, in which George has died.

Shannon would be quite the twisted person, if that's how it is. But well, I honestly cannot say that cannot be denied, and that'd be interesting.

Clearly there is something I miss in the big picture. If it wasn't for the bank accounts I'd say Beatrice never planned any murder and she only planned a fake serial murder to scare or challenge Battler which then turned out to be a lot more tragic than it was intended to be. However the bank accounts in the picture really scream "premeditated mass suicide" (except only one suicides and the other gets caught in it).

Well... the most simple logic would dictate that the most probable explanation is that a psycho with multiple personalities disorder decides to kill all the ushiromiya, by first making them participate in a sort of "let us scare Battler to death and make him believe the witch exist" and then kill them off easily after they have enacted their deaths in closed rooms and the likes. And then a big explosion in the end seals of the truth forever.
Except this person acts in contradictory ways (multiple personalities after all..) and sends money to close relatives as a way to compensate their loss, and writes message bottles as a way to make the legend live in the hope that someone will find the truth one day.

However, while I can't think of a more probable explanation right now, this is maybe a little too simple and is completely devoid of any love. In other words I find hard to believe that Beatrice is really such a person, or rather I find hard to believe would want to associate with such a person.

Originally Posted by Kitsu

First of all I still deny KShanon just to much of ...weirdness....
I mean why in the world would Shannon even create Kanon? Beatrice is understandable to some degree. 10 year old Shannon developed a huge crush on young Battler who told her that he actually like girls like Jessica more. Due her conflicts about being a servant and that stupid stuff Beatrice is created, a girl that fits all of Battler's exception.
But why Kanon?? because Shannon started to love Jessica as well ?! I don't really get it.
Also neither Kanon nor Shannon show any signs of DID or something similair. No memory loss for example. So only thing that makes you say it is that Kanon miracally appears where he want but to be honet I would buy Ninja!Kanon over DID Maid.
One persona seems resonable but three?
And why doesn't anyone help that poor girl. Having three personalities is cleary unhealthy.

There are a lot of things that are odds and I can't really find a good explanation for them. For example while EP6 screams shkannon theory, the way the reds are worded seem to deny the possibility that a real kanon ever existed. In that case the red truths in EP3 stating his death and counting him as people are a lot harder to explain.

However in my case it's not really the riddles and the red truths that made my opinion on the shkannon theory change so drastically. I was sure that the shkannontrice theory was true by the time Zepar and Fufur claimed that the three of them share one soul, and I've been suspecting it since the time they said the love miracle could only happen to either of them.
The final riddle was just the icing to the cake to me.

It is Kinzo's case all over again. Back when Ep4 was released there's been a lot of people claiming that Kinzo was already dead and a lot of others claiming it was impossible with more or less the same arguments that the anti-shkannon theorist are using now.

"We have seen this, we have seen that, it doesn't make sense if he doesn't exist, I don't want to believe it was all a lie, a lot of persons have talked to him, and so on".

But it turns out Kinzo was dead after all, and it turns out that yes many scenes involving him were just outright lies. And while I couldn't really explain everything at that time, it turned out that a pretty plausible explanation exists.

While the Shkannon theory is a riddle of a way higher magnitude, I'm quite positive this is a pretty similar case.

I saw Battler talking to someone here, he could be answering question from George, Rudolf or whoever, even if it was Beatrice. Which Beatrice? (Moetrice? Real Beatrice? Meta-Beatrice? And the time is not specified.(1980? 1986?) Though the place should be Rokkenjima.

Look, let's try to see if we can at least agree on something here.

1) It is Beatrice (the one created by Battler) remembering something that happened in the past here. I mean monochrome screen screams flashback to me...
2) This is a remembrance about Battler, I mean you see Battler there...
3) Battler is being asked by a person we can't see how would be his ideal girlfriend. Again this seems pretty straightforward...
4) Battler's description happens to match perfectly with the Beato that has challenged Battler in the first 4 arcs
5) EP6 confirms that Beatrice (again the Beato we know etc etc) isn't a real person but a "furniture", and specifically a furniture that was constructed for Battler's sake
6) We know from Ep4 that Beatrice (see above) didn't exist 6 years before, which means she has been created after that, also Featherinne says that 6 years in the real world equals to 1000 years in the magic world, hinting that Beatrice has 6 years.
7) Beatrice existed before 1986 due to the fact Maria has been talking to her for a while.

The rest is pretty simple to deduce.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Used Can

That's easy to get around. Shannon's was the first body they found. Then, they went around all over then mansion following the instructions and finding the other bodies, and then finally found Kanon last in the chapel. This way, Shannon had time to change into Kanon.

Red text: The six died instantly

None of the six suicided

Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, Kumasawa are all dead!! stated at the time when the adults were barricading themselves in the guesthouse.

Who killed Shannon in this case?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

1) It is Beatrice (the one created by Battler) remembering something that happened in the past here. I mean monochrome screen screams flashback to me...
2) This is a remembrance about Battler, I mean you see Battler there...
3) Battler is being asked by a person we can't see how would be his ideal girlfriend. Again this seems pretty straightforward...
4) Battler's description happens to match perfectly with the Beato that has challenged Battler in the first 4 arcs
5) EP6 confirms that Beatrice (again the Beato we know etc etc) isn't a real person but a "furniture", and specifically a furniture that was constructed for Battler's sake
6) We know from Ep4 that Beatrice (see above) didn't exist 6 years before, which means she has been created after that, also Featherinne says that 6 years in the real world equals to 1000 years in the magic world, hinting that Beatrice has 6 years.
7) Beatrice existed before 1986 due to the fact Maria has been talking to her for a while.

5)This Beatrice, who the red texts were referring to, was a Beatrice (moeBeatrice) created by and for Battler and was not the initial Beatrice (meta-Beatrice). This new Beatrice only existed from EP6.
4)This happened because Battler used the portrait's image as he just saw the it, in 1986.
6,7) were information from EP4, and here the Beatrice was the initial Beatrice, not the one we saw in EP6.
1) whether it is memory from the initial Beatrice, new Beatrice, or someone else, was not specified.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Red text: The six died instantly

None of the six suicided

Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, Kumasawa are all dead!! stated at the time when the adults were barricading themselves in the guesthouse.

Who killed Shannon in this case?

You answered your own question. Nobody was necessarily dead until after the adults returned to the guesthouse, and there were adults unaccounted for in the meantime (Kyrie and Rosa).

Shannon would have had to get inside the chapel without the key, but that's easy if it was unlocked to start with. Using the chapel in the ring makes complete sense then, because out of all the rooms it's the least likely for anyone to stumble across first.

...Huh. That works surprisingly well.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

You answered your own question. Nobody was necessarily dead until after the adults returned to the guesthouse, and there were adults unaccounted for in the meantime (Kyrie and Rosa).

Shannon would have had to get inside the chapel without the key, but that's easy if it was unlocked to start with. Using the chapel in the ring makes complete sense then, because out of all the rooms it's the least likely for anyone to stumble across first.

...Huh. That works surprisingly well.

Latter, when Eva's group bursted into parlor again, they saw George's body with Shannon's body. So according to what you said, Sayo posed dead in the parlor, then after the adults left, she changed clothes, imposing as Kanon, and went to the chapel to pose as another dead body. Then, she somehow changed back to Shannon, and went back to the parlor, and was killed by an unknown person.

Why she had to change back into Shannon and why did someone else know that she was not "dead" back in the parlor ?

Second: In EP2, Rosa said she had sent Shannon and Genji to call Kinzo. At the same time, Kanon was also there and were seen by Battler and others. Then Kanon ran away to chase Jessica. Latter Rosa went to find Genji and Shannon. How to reconcile this red texts "Kanon was killed in this room"

[Jan-Poo]

5)This Beatrice, who the red texts were referring to, was a Beatrice (moeBeatrice) created by and for Battler and was not the initial Beatrice (meta-Beatrice). This new Beatrice only existed from EP6.
4)This happened because Battler used the portrait's image as he just saw the it, in 1986.
6,7) were information from EP4, and here the Beatrice was the initial Beatrice, not the one we saw in EP6.
1) whether it is memory from the initial Beatrice, new Beatrice, or someone else, was not specified.

5) Even before the new Beatrice came in the picture Featherinne made clear that Beatrice was not a real being (therefore furniture) which represented the rules of the game. and the same apply for the new Beatrice Battler created. Also it is stated several time that the two Beatrice are substantially the same thing, except the new one lack the 1000 years experience.
4) This strikes me as completely unsupported, can you provide proof of this claim?
6,7) and your point is? I'm talking about the Beatrice of arcs 1-4
1) Since everything points to the fact that Beatrice was born because of this particular speech I surmise that this is a memory from the one who created Beatrice.