Fate/stay night Episode 16 Discussion thread

[npal]

Originally Posted by andiyar

... I think I love you. ^_^

Two Weapon fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Exotic Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)


... that should do it. I'm assuming Saber's a high enough level character, and is a figher class, yes?

^_^


-Andiyar

I'm so lovable.

Well, Saber can't be straight fighter. Her resistance to magic means either high Saving throws, or straight MR, which would make her either a prestige class with MR or high saves, or a Paladin (who's a warrior class with high saving throws due to the Divine Grace ability, and since Saber apparently has high Charisma, it can work), if put in D&D. Although, if she did dual-wield, she would be an unorthodox Paladin regarding ability scores' allocation (because a typical Paladin player uses his lowest score for Dexterity for a number of reasons) or her stats must be insane in order to keep the vital stats as high as possible while allocating probably the best stat for Dexterity.

So it could be done, although I question a player's sanity to have a Paladin dual-wield, when there are useful Divine Feats to get

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by npal

I'm so lovable.

Well, Saber can't be straight fighter. Her resistance to magic means either high Saving throws, or straight MR, which would make her either a prestige class with MR or high saves, or a Paladin (who's a warrior class with high saving throws due to the Divine Grace ability, and since Saber apparently has high Charisma, it can work), if put in D&D. Although, if she did dual-wield, she would be an unorthodox Paladin regarding ability scores' allocation (because a typical Paladin player uses his lowest score for Dexterity for a number of reasons) or her stats must be insane in order to keep the vital stats as high as possible while allocating probably the best stat for Dexterity.

So it could be done, although I question a player's sanity to have a Paladin dual-wield, when there are useful Divine Feats to get

Whoa...so many technique terms...
Anyways if Saber's master was Rin it'd be all over...infinate beam cannon...wipe everyone out in one go...(lol another excuse to see more RinxSaber)

[npal]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Whoa...so many technique terms...
Anyways if Saber's master was Rin it'd be all over...infinate beam cannon...wipe everyone out in one go...(lol another excuse to see more RinxSaber)

Yup, that's probably the reason Rin wanted Saber so much. I think Berserker would have a hard time with those two. Even Archer, who was supposedly weaker that Saber, with Rin as his Master managed to kill Berserker 5 times. Plus, she's able to communicate with Servants as she's supposed to, which enhances both hers and her Servant's efficiency.

[rooboy]

Well, I'm working from memory here:

Originally Posted by npal

Well, Saber can't be straight fighter. Her resistance to magic means either high Saving throws, or straight MR, which would make her either a prestige class with MR or high saves, or a Paladin

I think it's much more likely that this is the result of a template that has been applied (think like an undead template), rather than an innate feature of her class. Abilities that the person she is reincarnated from would equal her class. Abilities she's picked up since becoming a Grail Champion would belong to the template.

Originally Posted by npal

(who's a warrior class with high saving throws due to the Divine Grace ability, and since Saber apparently has high Charisma, it can work)

However, I have to disagree with this part. Charisma is not looks, I actually read Saber as having a low charisma (which is weird, when you think of who she's reincarnated from). Non-talkative, abrupt, slightly rude does not equal high Charisma it equals low Charisma. Though I guess she could have a high charisma side we're just not seeing.

[gammaoh]

usually a knight have many swords, but when in battle, they bring one and only one sword, which is the one their lords give them to. Chivary doesn't limit them to use other swords, but doing so would show that they'd use someone else's swords rather than the one their lord have given them. This would imply that they don't trust their lord and show disloyalty to them. The other swords a knight keep are for sparing, decorations, defense and for their squires to clean(for no darn reason, yeah right) and train with.

Yes and no. This worked in the early days of Chivalry. That is to say, before the first Crusade and the setting of aristocracy.

Afterwards, knights and aristocrats were one and the same : people who were allowed to bear arms and were the core of the army (or armies...). So they didn't have to obey a greater lord. The swords they used was theirs. And for instance, if a heavy knight charges with a lance but falls during the assault, what weapon will he use during combat? A sword, whether it is one-handed or two-handed depends on his taste.

And skill is necessary, even with a two-handed sword to be able to pull out precise blows and reach one's target. Try to make a decent swing with that kind of sword, you'll find out it's not that easy . It's just less fine than a one-handed sword or an elegant katana.

It is true that lords were often themselves the vassal of another greater lord but this didn't matter when it came to war (usually, people were not vassal of another lord for no reason, they were beaten in combat and pledged loyalty until their lord is defeated).

Thus, there were no "lords", except the king, to put one's trust into. Hence the fact that when a war occurs, knights, or aristocrats, used their own weapons. This works during feodality of course.

Afterwards, the army was open not only to aristocrats who were rather commanders than troopers.

[andiyar]

Hrm. You know, rooboy, I think you're right. Saber's character isn't being played as a high charisma character - I'd say she was higher than 'human' but not above a 12 or 13.

As for character class, she'd probably fit nicely into one of the prestige classes - though I don't have a DMG with me to check which ones. There aren't any templates that I can think of that would really apply to a character such as Saber - unless, and this is from memory, she's part celestial.

All this aside - I am so going to be a dual-wielding paladin next time I'm not DMing. Curse being the master of a long and involved campaign, curse it! Of course, being a Cthulhu player is fun and all... but I miss actually playing D&D. :/


-Andiyar

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by andiyar

Hrm. You know, rooboy, I think you're right. Saber's character isn't being played as a high charisma character - I'd say she was higher than 'human' but not above a 12 or 13.

Really? I thought more like a 6 or 7. She pretty much acts the way my dog does when there's a strange person in the yard. Plus part of Charisma is the ability to manipulate people, something she seems particularly poor at considering Emiya basically ignores her.

Originally Posted by andiyar

As for character class, she'd probably fit nicely into one of the prestige classes - though I don't have a DMG with me to check which ones. There aren't any templates that I can think of that would really apply to a character such as Saber - unless, and this is from memory, she's part celestial.

I'm assuming the template would be a custom one named "Grail Champion".

[npal]

Originally Posted by rooboy666

Well, I'm working from memory here:I think it's much more likely that this is the result of a template that has been applied (think like an undead template), rather than an innate feature of her class. Abilities that the person she is reincarnated from would equal her class. Abilities she's picked up since becoming a Grail Champion would belong to the template.

However, I have to disagree with this part. Charisma is not looks, I actually read Saber as having a low charisma (which is weird, when you think of who she's reincarnated from). Non-talkative, abrupt, slightly rude does not equal high Charisma it equals low Charisma. Though I guess she could have a high charisma side we're just not seeing.

Well, if there are many abilities, it's a good Level Adjustment, that would hinder her Base Attack bonus, add the MR to that, and it becomes pretty hard to play. Templates are not to be taken lightly, I've had template characters and their usual weakness are attack bonuses and hit points. But yes, it could be a template.

I based my second argument a) to Shirou's comment about Saber's grace when she first appeared and b) to Saber's forceful and unyielding personality. Force of personality and personal magnetism are characteristics of high Charisma, and Saber showed she possessed all of those, until the fanservice idiocy started.

BTW, Half-Celestias have a +4 LA. I have played one, it has its ups and downs. Well, he died But that doesn't mean anything.

You know, Saber not getting to Shirou doesn't necessarily mean that her Charisma is low, it might mean that 1) people can only be persuaded so far (eg. it's very hard to persuade a Paladin to commit an evil act), or 2) Shirou himself has enough Charisma.

[gammaoh]

Saber's charisma is quite high. It is fit to "command a country".

Spoiler:

Gil-sama has the highest charisma ever... "Closer to mind control than mere popularity"

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by npal

Force of personality and personal magnetism are characteristics of high Charisma, and Saber showed she possessed all of those, until the fanservice idiocy started.

Oop, I forgot about the force of personality part. I still say she exhibits little to no personal magnetism, but she does have a forceful personality that I could at least see the 13 someone else mentioned.

I still have a hard time seeing her as a paladin, but, again, as a fighter (with associated prestige class) from her days as

Spoiler for hard to imagine anyone doesn't know by this point:

Arthur

, with some kind of custom template added upon becoming a Grail Champion.

Ahh, F/SN, how I love thee.

EDIT: Btw, I think the template must be offing the CHA to compensate for having a lower LA. If you think about it, none of the Champions has been portrayed to be as charismatic as their actual counterparts should be.

[andiyar]

Originally Posted by gammaoh

Yes and no. This worked in the early days of Chivalry. That is to say, before the first Crusade and the setting of aristocracy.

Just a brief point here (I need sleep ^_^) I wouldn't say that the days before the firsts crusade were very chivalric at all, especially not in the way you're referring to them. The medieval/chivalric period in the classic sense wouldn't arise for a a century or so after the first crusade (which was the late eleventh / early twelfth century). This was still the tail end of the Dark Ages - the medieval period was still in its very beginnings.

The chivalric values of loyalty to God and to King were certainly on the rise in this period, though much of it was fractured due to the shifting powerplay of the European stage. But the chivalric ideals of courtly love, courtesy to a lady etc, these were all just in their early infancy. At a guess (it has been a little while, and not all the books I need are either handy or digestable at 1am ^^) I'd say it was towards the end of the twelfth century - by this point the orders of the Poor Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, and the Knights Hospitaller were in full swing, and the medieval romantic culture was blossoming in France - Troyes, Champagne, and elsewhere. I'd say the first real 'evidence' of courtly behaviour, per se, would be coming out of works by men such as Chrétien de Troyes, and later Wolfram von Eschenbach. So I'd say late twelfth, early thirteenth century. Of course, there'd need to be some basis in cultural behaviour... ah, I'm rambling.

But at any rate - chivalry as we understand it today, I'd think, would be more a latter twelfth/early thirteenth century concept, rather than a pre-Crusade one


-Andiyar

[npal]

Originally Posted by rooboy666

Oop, I forgot about the force of personality part. I still say she exhibits little to no personal magnetism, but she does have a forceful personality that I could at least see the 13 someone else mentioned.

I still have a hard time seeing her as a paladin, but, again, as a fighter (with associated prestige class) from her days as

Spoiler for hard to imagine anyone doesn't know by this point:

Arthur

, with some kind of custom template added upon becoming a Grail Champion.

Ahh, F/SN, how I love thee.

Well, that's because the only person she actively interacts with is Shirou. And having only one case to judge is not much of an indicator of one's ability to persuade. Plus, without skill points in Persuade, even a fighter with a charisma of 6 that spent his whole career adding skill points to Persuade (cross-class) would fair better in persuasion than Saber with a, say, 16 charisma and no skill points in Persuade. I still think a Paladin is the easiest and most viable option for Saber.

Servants are servants, their display of personality is limited by their Master's wishes. To display Charisma, a character has to LEAD, not follow.

[gammaoh]

Originally Posted by andiyar

Just a brief point here (I need sleep ^_^) I wouldn't say that the days before the firsts crusade were very chivalric at all, especially not in the way you're referring to them. The medieval/chivalric period in the classic sense wouldn't arise for a a century or so after the first crusade (which was the late eleventh / early twelfth century). This was still the tail end of the Dark Ages - the medieval period was still in its very beginnings.

The chivalric values of loyalty to God and to King were certainly on the rise in this period, though much of it was fractured due to the shifting powerplay of the European stage. But the chivalric ideals of courtly love, courtesy to a lady etc, these were all just in their early infancy. At a guess (it has been a little while, and not all the books I need are either handy or digestable at 1am ^^) I'd say it was towards the end of the twelfth century - by this point the orders of the Poor Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, and the Knights Hospitaller were in full swing, and the medieval romantic culture was blossoming in France - Troyes, Champagne, and elsewhere. I'd say the first real 'evidence' of courtly behaviour, per se, would be coming out of works by men such as Chrétien de Troyes, and later Wolfram von Eschenbach. So I'd say late twelfth, early thirteenth century. Of course, there'd need to be some basis in cultural behaviour... ah, I'm rambling.

But at any rate - chivalry as we understand it today, I'd think, would be more a latter twelfth/early thirteenth century concept, rather than a pre-Crusade one


-Andiyar

I fully agree. I was just referring to the sword you have to fight with. Otherwise, you are completely right.

Edit: I'd have given some more reputation but the admin refrained me to do so (gotta spread some around before giving you some more points )

Edit2: you seem pretty aware of French and European culture (somewhat more than I am, which is a shame since I'm French), is that what you study or is it just an interest?

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by npal

Well, that's because the only person she actively interacts with is Shirou. And having only one case to judge is not much of an indicator of one's ability to persuade. Plus, without skill points in Persuade, even a fighter with a charisma of 6 that spent his whole career adding skill points to Persuade (cross-class) would fair better in persuasion than Saber with a, say, 16 charisma and no skill points in Persuade. I still think a Paladin is the easiest and most viable option for Saber.

Actually, I was basing the personal magnetism part on how she interacts with other characters. Except for the fact that Shirou ignores her, I would say that he seems to find her very, uhh, "magnetic". With everyone else, though, she acts like an unfriendly dog. But, again, I had forgotten about the force of will part, and Saber definitely has that in spades.
The Paladin/Warrior thing is strictly personal preference, I was just basing it upon the fact that Saber seems to possess a number of fighting feats that would seem rather odd as a paladin.
Also, I'm unsure how these two things are tied together, as I recall, Paladins are no longer required to have a high Charisma. If Saber is a paladin (or a warrior), she would be a very unique one and unlike a standard build anyway.
This has now devolved into a pretty pointless discussion, as we're both simply reading from externalities (meaning we're never going to get a "right" answer and there may not even be a "right" answer). I liked your interpretation, I just had a different one.

Originally Posted by npal

Servants are servants, their display of personality is limited by their Master's wishes. To display Charisma, a character has to LEAD, follow.

Even if Saber's force of personality is being limited by Shirou, what difference does that make to the discussion at hand? We've never seen her without him so for all we know he's making her more charismatic.

[npal]

Yes, although taking a Paladin with a low Charisma is idiotic if you ask me The best Paladin abilities are based on Charisma, so if you put less that 14 in Charisma, provided you can do otherwise, you're heavily limiting your Paladin character.

About the interaction with other characters, well, Sakura and Taiga had no problem with Saber once they talked with her alone, so, her answers must have been very convincing

And it is apparent that Saber is not accustomed to taking orders. I mean, she knows her part and she always tries to impose it. I mean, she isn't just waiting orders, she acts and then Shirou just tells her off most of the time and she gets frustrated (like when she was set on escorting him to school). From her strict adherence to rules, he has to be at least Lawful, and since she specifically states that she will not use underhanded tactics to win (like hurting innocents etc.) she must be Good. Well, ok, we'll either have a LG warrior with MR or high saves, a specific moral code, two-handed feat chain, and maybe a template, or a first class (high stats) unorthodox Paladin

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by npal

Yes, although taking a Paladin with a low Charisma is idiotic if you ask me The best Paladin abilities are based on Charisma, so if you put less that 14 in Charisma, provided you can do otherwise, you're heavily limiting your Paladin character.

About the interaction with other characters, well, Sakura and Taiga had no problem with Saber once they talked with her alone, so, her answers must have been very convincing

And it is apparent that Saber is not accustomed to taking orders. I mean, she knows her part and she always tries to impose it. I mean, she isn't just waiting orders, she acts and then Shirou just tells her off most of the time and she gets frustrated (like when she was set on escorting him to school). From her strict adherence to rules, he has to be at least Lawful, and since she specifically states that she will not use underhanded tactics to win (like hurting innocents etc.) she must be Good. Well, ok, we'll either have a LG warrior with MR or high saves, a specific moral code, two-handed feat chain, and maybe a template, or a first class (high stats) unorthodox Paladin

The unorthodox and high stat part could come formt he fact that Sabre is a Outsider. Either with full or half celestial templete. Her current body is basically made up of magic so there is a lot of leeway to work on.

btw anyone care to work on class levels for Archer and Rider?

[Mirtual]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

The unorthodox and high stat part could come formt he fact that Sabre is a Outsider. Either with full or half celestial templete. Her current body is basically made up of magic so there is a lot of leeway to work on.

btw anyone care to work on class levels for Archer and Rider?

Rider would be a rogue if you ask me. Mostly sneak attack, agile, but can't really take damage and is more agi based then strengh.
Archer would be a fighter, wouldn't he? With some weapon specialisation, focusing on rather light and fast weapons.
BTW, what is this class thing all about?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Mirtual

Rider would be a rogue if you ask me. Mostly sneak attack, agile, but can't really take damage and is more agi based then strengh.
Archer would be a fighter, wouldn't he? With some weapon specialisation, focusing on rather light and fast weapons.
BTW, what is this class thing all about?

With Archer and his dual wielding, I am thinking Ranger Class with some sort of prestige class.

With Rider the best i can come up with is a Rogue with Exotic weapons feats and a Outsider Template on top of her Gorgan Template.

[npal]

Nothing, we just started arguing about if and how Saber could dual-wield, and then moved on to what could Saber be in D&D.

Well, a Half-Celestial template could justify the high stats, but it's still +4 LA, which is not very easy to play. It seems great when you think about it, but in actual play it has drawbacks that you didn't think about, more so if you are a magic-wielding character.

Standard Celestial template it just +2 LA, but the ability gain is low, and the MR is low, too, from what I recall.

[Sinestra]

and yet another girl joins Shirou's ever expanding harem house. IF i were him i would just keep winning all the girls over shack them up in my house and live the good life untill the war is over i mean he has enough rooms. Seem like ilya really did like berserker. I want to why she wants to stay with shirou does she seem him like of onii-chan and wants to remain by his side. she said she would have any other servant except for Berserker so i dont think we have to worry about her trying to kill Shirou and take Saber. My Rin Rin still providing support i hope they dont reduce her role with Archer gone