2013-03-04, 13:41 | Link #142 | |
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Still, given the fact Nixon opening trade with China almost made China what she is today, I would say China got the better deal out of this? |
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2013-03-04, 13:48 | Link #144 | |
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Even when the Japanese surrendered and 1/5 of her Navy, the only "material" repatriation given to China, the ships were transferred to ROC, not PRC command. |
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2013-03-04, 13:49 | Link #145 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2013-03-04, 13:50 | Link #147 |
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
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I really would like to see the source on that one. Especially since I can't even recall anytime in history Chiang and Mao sat in the same room and agreed on the flavor of the tea to be served, much less give the islands to an enemy of the nation.
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2013-03-04, 13:51 | Link #148 | |
Nyaaan~~
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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There was significant corruption in the government and he (Mao) gained enough popular support to effect a regime change. He had his own personal experiences and from that his own personal vision. He went about crafting this vision -- so does that make him a good man? Was Stalin a good man? Hitler? Iran's Grand Ayatollah? Castro? Anyways, China and Taiwan are both (relatively) stable functioning societies now .. as a result of one man or one party's vision or the resilience of humankind? (PS: I noticed an article the accuracy of which I'm unsure of, but has made the allegation that Mao's reforms resulted in more deaths than those caused by Hitler (excl. wartime deaths) and Stalin. You can find it easily if you google it, not sure if it's legitimate.)
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2013-03-04, 14:04 | Link #149 | |
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
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2013-03-04, 14:33 | Link #151 | |
Nyaaan~~
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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2013-03-04, 14:36 | Link #152 | |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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Chiang was also a bad dude, but at least he had some reservations. After Zhang Xueliang kidnapped and threatened him in Xi'an, Chiang simply put him under house arrest and let him live out the rest of his life (he lived for 100 years). Mao on the other hand, could kill or harm anyone for any reason. Peng Dehuai was a great general who had fought the Japanese and commanded the PLA in Korea. After the Great Leap Forward, Peng felt Mao had gone overboard, and wrote him a letter about the matter. He did not kidnap or threaten him. He merely spoke up for the millions of people who had been starved to death. And what happened? Mao put Peng in detainment, criticized him, and had him tortured for years until he finally died. That was his own comrade. I will not talk about people like Liu Shaoqi, who met an even more gruesome death. |
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2013-03-04, 14:56 | Link #153 | |
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
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That and daring to fight anyone who get in his way. |
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2013-03-04, 15:14 | Link #154 | |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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It's not "no matter what I think", or even what the Chinese people think, it's what's correct. It's frankly disgusting that people like Mao can be respected while someone like Hitler is 100% the devil. In many ways Mao surpassed Hitler. Saying "oh but Mao wasn't corrupt!" is like saying "but Hitler discouraged smoking and built the German highways, so he can't be a bad guy". Earlier you equated Mao with Jefferson and Washington, which is exactly the kind of moral relativism that is the disgusting habit of modern Chinese. By contrast, if you went to Germany and said Hitler was "good and bad like George Washington" they would probably kick you out of the country. |
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2013-03-04, 15:20 | Link #155 |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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Sorry that I am writing so much. I just think it is really irresponsible for people to talk about historical figures and act like they were all the same.
Also, you mentioned corruption as the #1 problem in current China? Going back to Mao, I'm sure that his underhanded methods, total disregard for existing Chinese culture or ethics, and propensity to do anything he wanted did not do anything to improve the ethical or virtuous thinking of modern Chinese. So even if Mao was not corrupt in the same way as modern officials, he did not do anything to create a system that would stay "clean". |
2013-03-04, 15:34 | Link #156 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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In US history the two presidents tha are generally held in high regard are Washington and Lincoln. Jefferson and his faults are generally known and yet he remains at least respected, but not on a pillar like the other two. We don't have a holiday for Jefferson's birthday, while we had them for Washinton and Lincoln (combined into President's Day in the last few decades).
Washington gets nation wide rememberance, while Lincoln gets decidedly less in the more Southern parts of the country. A fourth added to the list has been Theodore Roosevelt for being a Progressive Republican that went after Big Business and moved to make the US at least a viable world power (Great White Fleet) plus negotiating the peace treaty that ended the Russo-Japanese War (he won a Nobel Prize for that). FDR is held high by some, but still hated by others as there are still some people alive that voted for or against him.
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2013-03-04, 15:46 | Link #157 | |
Master of Coin
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Mao won his :P Also, if you use the argument that system he created left problems that are also his fault, then I think a certain carpenter who had a great message about faith 2013 years ago would also be responsible for some of the greatest genocide and mass murder known in human history. Last edited by ArchmageXin; 2013-03-04 at 16:00. |
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2013-03-04, 17:15 | Link #158 |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 32
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Jesus taught universal love, tolerance, and virtuous conduct. That people later on appropriated this teaching to commit wrongdoing was not his fault. Mao set up a system that could not be anything other than corrupt, because he denied and damaged the Chinese system of ethics and values, rewarded only behavior that was beneficial to his own political power (like Shang Yang or Qin Shihuang), and denied morality as "idealistic".
You are making an idiotic comparison again. I don't know what your intent is. |
2013-03-04, 19:03 | Link #159 |
formerly ogon bat
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 53
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I do not see the crisis in "North Korea Crisis"; a crisis is something that must be solved ASAP or you lose the small opportunity window you have to solve it i.e. The cuban missiles crisis. But chances are we will be talking about this issue this year, next year, etc.
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