2010-07-07, 16:23 | Link #13321 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Didn't forget. Not sure if Dlanor would accept that though since she said you can call his corpse anyone else's. That's why she said "no red would be effective"
Also Dlanor is a neutral party. I don't think she's on either side really.
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2010-07-07, 16:38 | Link #13323 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Let me try again.
Let's create 3 kakera. Kakera 1: Shannon - Kanon - Battler Battler saw everyone, not together Red Truth: Kanon is death Kakera 2: Shannon - Kannon - Battler - Erika Battler saw everyone, not together Erika saw everyone, not together Red Truth: Kanon is death Kakera 3: Shannon - Kanon - Battler - Erika - Kinzo. Battler saw everyone, not together Erika never saw Kanon but belived in Battler's point when he said he saw Kanon. Red Truth: Kanon is death At the forth Kakera i say in red: Kanon and Shannon are the same person! Kanon is just a disguise! That applies at all kakera! Would the previous reds became a lie or would still be functional? moreover, what would Erika think about that in the 3rd kakera? don't focus on the corpses, just accept the reds. |
2010-07-07, 16:47 | Link #13324 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
There is no apparent connection between Dlanor's power to seal red and the theory that reds are dependent on belief rather than being simply the truth. But to clarify, Dlanor only seals the use of reds and blues not their validity. Kinzo is dead is a perfectly valid red. Dlanor simply denied the possibility that that particular red could be used in that duel.
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2010-07-07, 16:49 | Link #13325 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
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2010-07-07, 16:58 | Link #13326 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Quote:
But in Kakera 1 we still don't know that, so it's truth because SOMEONE WITNESSED Kanon. In Kakera 4 we learn that in reallity Kanon doesn't exist as a person, and there's someone else disguised as him. So we should not accept that truth anymore. But, since at that time we believed Kanon existed, the red truth was effective. EDIT: it's getting late here, good night gentlemen Happy investigation! |
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2010-07-07, 17:07 | Link #13327 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quote:
(Well besides the duel theory)
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2010-07-07, 17:09 | Link #13328 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The way I see it, if Shannon and Kanon are the same person then Kanon is only an alias of Shannon, and therefore "Kanon is dead" simply means "Shannon is dead". Alternatively "kanon died as a personality".
Anyway let's assume that "it's impossible to claim that someone who doesn't exist died". In that case using a red to claim what's impossible is the very definition of logic error. The case you presented is a logic error. Quote:
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2010-07-07, 17:20 | Link #13331 | |
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Quote:
Ok, here's my theory for the Red Truth. I know not everyone agrees with me, but I felt like I need to re-iterate this, especially based on observations in EP5 and 6. I believe those episodes actually provided answers for us, not just hints. First of all there are two types of Red. - Red that applies to a certain game - Red that applies to all games Red can apply to only certain games because the surrounding text whether red, blue, white/black or gold, contextualizes them into certain games. The answer from EP6 shows us that red is dependent on context since many of the reds in EP6 are merely the word: "Acknowledged." Without the surrounding context of what was acknowledged, the red is useless. I believe this was a deliberate change in presentation of the red for EP6 to force us to face this issue. As for Reds that apply to all games the question is, do they apply to all games now, but not new games? This appears to be heading down right now and I want to stop it with this reasoning. EP5 showed us a red that was spoken in EP4 and applied in EP5. "No person would mistake Kinzo by sight." In fact this was the linchpin in Battler's battle so this wasn't just a minor scene but deliberate. This shows us that there are some Reds (with a generalized context) that must apply to all future games. I would say at this point that all non-contexted reds must apply to the future, including things like, "There is not more than 17 people on this island." But this conversation seems to be heading towards the idea that some of these reds could be broken in the future. The question is.. which reds? Because at least one was not able to be broken. In order for us to be able to determine which reds can be broken, there must be some kind of clue or hint but I don't think one can be found. Can anyone find anything? I propose that all non-contexted-into-certain-episode Reds must apply to all episodes, including future episodes. |
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2010-07-07, 17:21 | Link #13332 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Or was it EP2 where Kanon died? Anwyay I think with this kind of theory though it would be hard to claim one person dies in the duel in every episode. So there is a loophole. In EP3 the duel could be a draw. And in EP4 they could be imprisoned before the duel could even takes place kind of like how George didn't get a chance to propose to Shannon in EP 4
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2010-07-07, 17:22 | Link #13333 | ||
Intellectual Rapist
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Quote:
Quote:
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2010-07-07, 17:27 | Link #13334 | |
Mystery buff
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Quote:
there is also the fact that no corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story
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2010-07-07, 17:29 | Link #13336 |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Sorry for such an abrupt change, but I came across something interesting while watching a friend read EP2:
When Beatrice talks to Shannon in the beginning of EP2 (when she makes the bruise on her hand) and offers her the deal, Beatrice herself never mentions George's name. Instead, she uses vague terms such as "your loved one" or the "one you love." This is rather odd, reading that part a second time; Beatrice does not seem to mention the obvious choice for Shannon's loved one. Is this another hint for Shannon falling in love with Battler, that is brought up in EP3? The thing that bothers me is the narration, though; while the witch doesn't use any names, the narration does. Is the narration to be trusted when it uses George's name? If Shannon is the narrator for that part, then she could possibly just be in denial. |
2010-07-07, 17:29 | Link #13337 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Quote:
When Gohda said "at first it was Kanon, but then it wasn't Kanon anymore.." could mean that Shannon acted like Kanon without the disguise... Simply Godha aknowledged that Shannon was Kanon.. but not literally Kanon. And Kanon is still "dead" but "brought back to life with magic". After all , Gohda can be an accomplice and not lying. Also, when Shannon dies, her "visual form" dies, but she still can exist disguised as Kanon. |
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2010-07-07, 17:30 | Link #13338 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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Quote:
Corpse may not be defined as a dead body. Who said they have to be on the island?
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2010-07-07, 17:32 | Link #13339 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Random minor observation:
Ep3. Maria receives a sealed envelope from Beatrice. It contains the standard First Letter. In the very next scene Kinzo throws out the ring. Ronove recovers it and brings it to Beatrice, who is still hanging out in the garden. I'd say that if it's not evidence of scenes being out of order, it's a clear hint that the First Letter was prewritten long ago.
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2010-07-07, 17:34 | Link #13340 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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You have to explain 8 other victims to just to make your one theory work. When all it would take for the witch to deny it is to say that 9th victim died at the specified time in Kyrie's group. it doesn't work.
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