Learn Japanese online

[Eelco]

Yeah, the Japanese writing system has to be the worst writing system in the world

But those stubborn Japanese won't abandon it :'(

[Eelco]

I have decided to hold off on publishing the Japanese grammar section until it's finished. There are too many cross links to put it online section by section. This would result in many dead links. Though these dead links would be solved over time, I fear that many people would be put off when they keep ending up nowhere when clicking many of the links.

I can't say when the grammar section will go online, but I'll try to get it up as soon as possible. Preferably before the end of February 2004 (this month), but it might be later due to the sheer size of the project. (Over 70 pages.)

[Shii]

Originally Posted by Eelco

Yeah, the Japanese writing system has to be the worst writing system in the world

I beg to differ-- hiragana and katakana beat hell out of the Roman alphabet. They're nearly perfectly phoenetic!

It's just kanji that's the worst writing system in the world.

[Eelco]

Originally Posted by ashibaka

I beg to differ-- hiragana and katakana beat hell out of the Roman alphabet. They're nearly perfectly phoenetic!

It's just kanji that's the worst writing system in the world.

It's exactly the kanji that make it so bad. If Japanese were written completely in hiragana and katakana it would be illegible. Kanji helps with that. But it makes reading infinitely worse by assigning at least 2 or 3 different readings per kanji, and then completely ignoring those for certain combinations again. On top of that there are the hiragana after the kanji for verbs (aka okurigana)... don't even get me started on that

When it comes to reading and writing there is no writing system in the world as difficult as Japanese. Trying to adapt a writing system completely unsuitable for your language is bound to lead to disaster... and that's exactly what happened when they chose Chinese characters for writing Japanese.

[TangentZ]

Originally Posted by Eelco

When it comes to reading and writing there is no writing system in the world as difficult as Japanese. Trying to adapt a writing system completely unsuitable for your language is bound to lead to disaster... and that's exactly what happened when they chose Chinese characters for writing Japanese.

You haven't seen or heard of the Arabic family of languages, have you?

At least CJK (Chinese/Japanese/Korean) can be written left-to-right (and sometimes top-to-bottom). But try, just try, to read and/or write right-to-left.

Of course, the reverse is also true. Arabic people would find it hard to learn a left-to-right language.

[Shii]

It's not that hard for me to read right-to-left. I guess I learned it from Japanese.

Arabic is nearly as good as Latin letters, but they leave out short vowels which is a bit annoying.

[Mr. Bushido]

korean and chinese is left-to-right.

i have a question.... its kinda been bothering me. I know u read japanese from right-to-left.... but in animes the teachers at school write from left-to-right.

for example if i wanted to spell Zoro wouldnt the japanese write it as (assuming it was written in hiragana, katagana, or kanji)

OROZ

everytime i see japanese being written, its either top to bottom or left to right.

Z or Zoro
O
R
O

[Shii]

i T
t h
  e
l y
i
k w
e o
  u
t l
h d
i
s w
. r
  i
  t
  e

(Or just plain left-to-right and then top-to-bottom, in some places, but top-to-bottom and then right-to-left is the traditional style and is used in manga.)

[TangentZ]

Originally Posted by Zoro

korean and chinese is left-to-right.

i have a question.... its kinda been bothering me. I know u read japanese from right-to-left.... but in animes the teachers at school write from left-to-right.

You are veerrrrrrryyyyyyyy confused.

Japanese is also left-to-right when written horizontally.

CJK are read right-to-left when written vertically. Now, that's something not commonly found in other languages. I'll give you that.

[Eelco]

Have a look at this page. You can get examples of ways of writing (in Japanese) when clicking the links under "reading Japanese".

Have a look at the following 6 pages as well, and probably all your questions about the Japanese language will be answered

Good luck

[Mr. Bushido]

Originally Posted by TangentZ

You are veerrrrrrryyyyyyyy confused.

Japanese is also left-to-right when written horizontally.

CJK are read right-to-left when written vertically. Now, that's something not commonly found in other languages. I'll give you that.

lol i thought u meant direction to read books.

Originally Posted by Eelco

Have a look at this page. You can get examples of ways of writing (in Japanese) when clicking the links under "reading Japanese".

Have a look at the following 6 pages as well, and probably all your questions about the Japanese language will be answered

Good luck

i dont read japanese yet, so that looks like jibberish.

If Japanese is written modern style, do they still read the book "backwards"

[TangentZ]

Originally Posted by Zoro

lol i thought u meant direction to read books.

i dont read japanese yet, so that looks like jibberish.

If Japanese is written modern style, do they still read the book "backwards"

No problem.

The way to read books depends on how things are written: horizontal or vertical.

Vertically written books are right-to-left or "backwards". Horizontally written books are left-to-right, just like English.

Both styles are equally commonly used. Newspapers are usually vertical, and web pages are usually horizontal. I think that's as "everyday use" as it gets.

Well, I hope you get the idea.

[Mr. Bushido]

Originally Posted by TangentZ

No problem.

The way to read books depends on how things are written: horizontal or vertical.

Vertically written books are right-to-left or "backwards". Horizontally written books are left-to-right, just like English.

Both styles are equally commonly used. Newspapers are usually vertical, and web pages are usually horizontal. I think that's as "everyday use" as it gets.

Well, I hope you get the idea.

how about books?? Or are books just 50/50 vertical and horizontal. (excluding traditional literatures)

[Eelco]

Originally Posted by Zoro

how about books?? Or are books just 50/50 vertical and horizontal. (excluding traditional literatures)

Books are almost always read back to front, and writing is almost always vertical.
Newspapers, though written vertically are read front to back though. It's just like the Japanese not to stick to a single system

Sometimes on cars, stands or shop signs you can find Japanese or Chinese written right to left horizontally:

ーシクタ = タクシー (ixaT = Taxi)
ばそんどう = うどんそば (aboS & nodU = Udon & Soba)

But it's not common.

[Eelco]

Well, just when you figure you're gonna make it, just when you think you're really close, it all goes to hell again.

In this case it's my own fault, I applied for a job, and actually managed to get it. Unfortunately this means I don't know when I'll be able to finish the Grammar section.

Between now and 1,5 weeks I'll be leaving for Iraq. I will stay there for at least 4 months as a liaisons officer and interpreter/translator between the Japanese and Dutch army.

I will keep working on the Grammar section when I have the time, and I will also keep webmastering for The Foreigner, but other things will have priority as you can probably understand.

If you'd like more info on what things are "really" like in Iraq, then feel free to leave a message on The Foreigner's forum.

[Eelco]

After a long wait, now finally the first half of the Japanese grammar section is online. This section will be expanded upon over time, but in essence already deals with every aspect of the Japanese grammar.

The introduction of this section lifts Japanese 101 above the level of a mere online course, and brings it to being a reference point for those who wish to know more.

As an alternative to the grammar section of Japanese 101 I recommend TheJapanesePage.com and A Logical Japanese Grammar, though these are still far from finished.

[NaweG]

OK, while I'm learning some basic phrases rather well using the Rosetta Stone software, I'm not anywhere close to where I'd like to be in order to start helping out with fansubs or dubs. Doing some online research, I discovered that getting an hour of material professionally translated cost about $1200 (something to think about the next time you're wondering where the next episode is...).

I am not aware of whether it's possible to get a raw that has closed captioning turned on - which would be one option courtesy of google and some decently priced software out there for Kanji and similar translation. Anyone?

I did find the following device:

http://www.ectacodeal.com/ECTACO-EJ800/

but am wondering if anyone has experience with it? It's a little pricey to buy in the "hope" that it will cover enough phrases to let me just fill in a few blanks now and then.

TIA,
NaweG

[FatPianoBoy]

I suggest Rikai-chan. It won't compensate for a lack of grammar, but it will compensate for vocabulary. For fansubbing, simply transcribe the dialouge into notepad, save as an html document, open in FireFox, and have at it. It's a bit of an inconvenient method, but it's free, and it'll help improve your Japanese.

[NaweG]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

For fansubbing, simply transcribe the dialouge into notepad...

Ummm... I think I've given the impression I know a lot more than I actually do about japanese if the first step is to take what I think I've just heard a character say, and then try to figure out the Kanji for it. At best, I could do a phonetic translation which I gather is not supported by Rikai-chan.

Hence the reason I was looking for something that would accept voice input. Figure that it's more likely that the machine will get close than that I would.

Oh, and a little more research has turned up the following item:

http://store.aikotradingstore.com/nelittvo.html

which appears to be somewhat cheaper - although with a somewhat smaller vocabulary. Again, if anyone has actually used this device...

Thanks again,
NaweG

[Quarkboy]

Not to burst your bubble, but you need formal japanese education (or immersion) to learn the language. A talking dictionary isn't going to help at all.

I actually wrote a faq on the subject:

http://www.fansubbers.org/index.php/...oBeATranslator