Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch From Mercury - Anime Episode Discussion

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Frontier

It's pretty clear Miorine is a kid out of her depth and just grasping at what she feels is the right thing to do while Prospera is coasting her along so she gets what she wants.

I mean, from what she's been told about Quiet Zero she probably will try to use it as a non-violent equalizer, but she doesn't know what Prospera really wants to do with it.

People don't like to be forced to do things, even if it's in their best interest. You can't achieve peace that way. It doesn't matter if Quiet Zero is "non-violent."

He plays the game better but that doesn't make him a better person for it. It probably won't actually solve anything in the long run either.

He doesn't have to be a good person, but he understands how the world and humans work. If you have two factions / countries and one is really powerful and the other is weak, the powerful one will always try to exploit the weak. This happens in the real world so it's not debatable. It's plain reality. But if both factions are equally strong, economically and militarily, an effect of mutual deterrence is achieved. It's not like they will start to like each other. That would never happen. That's something you would only expect from Disney shit. But they would not mess with each other carelessly anymore. We see it in the real world, for example between the US and China. They're big economical and geopolitical rivals, but they won't jump into a armed conflict because they know they would not achieve anything but destroying each other and maybe the whole world along with them.

That's the sort of deterrence effect Shaddiq wants to achieve by bolstering Earth's economy and weaponry to level the playing field with Space. It's a dangerous plan but it's reasonable and takes into account that you can't force people to stop hostilities. People need to find their own reasons to stop. And generally that reason is driven by economical interest and power dynamics.

[TheDoctor324]

Originally Posted by azarhal

The ED has Suletta making 5 gun-bits dance during her bloodred, goth lady phase (and then they form their own little Coven). I don't think her next ride will be a downgrade.

Here's my question/concern, Eri has been "tanking" all the DS (Data Storm) damage/feedback so that Suletta can "open the door" to level 8. But now that we've seen that she's been "cursed" since infancy, has she been eased into the DS over time or will she be getting hit full force at even level 1-2? And if she were to get a new suit (probably the new Gundam we just saw, not gonna butcher the name) will any Gundbits it has be like Aerial's or will they be AI like Guel's last suit?

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

People don't like to be forced to do things, even if it's in their best interest. You can't achieve peace that way. It doesn't matter if Quiet Zero is "non-violent."

I think Miorine's understanding is that Quiet Zero is just going to mostly be shutting stuff off to de-escalate so that people will be forced to talk and negotiate rather than escalate to another Mobile Suit fight. Which considering the tension between Earth and Space right now seems on paper to be a reasonable solution by not giving them an option to fight as terribly as they have been.

He doesn't have to be a good person, but he understands how the world and humans work. If you have two factions / countries and one is really powerful and the other is weak, the powerful one will always try to exploit the weak. This happens in the real world so it's not debatable. It's plain reality. But if both factions are equally strong, economically and militarily, an effect of mutual deterrence is achieved. It's not like they will start to like each other. That would never happen. That's something you would only expect from Disney shit. But they would not mess with each other carelessly anymore. We see it in the real world, for example between the US and China. They're big economical and geopolitical rivals, but they won't jump into a armed conflict because they know they would not achieve anything but destroying each other and maybe the whole world along with them.

That's the sort of deterrence effect Shaddiq wants to achieve by bolstering Earth's economy and weaponry to level the playing field with Space. It's a dangerous plan but it's reasonable and takes into account that you can't force people to stop hostilities. People need to find their own reasons to stop. And generally that reason is driven by economical interest and power dynamics.

I don't get the sense that he wants things to be more even, I think he wants to lean things more in Earth's favor, which would probably just make Spacians retaliate more. And the fact that he's driven by his own self-interest just makes me think it's going to end up being business as usual even if the balance of power shifts in another direction. At least I think that's their take on Shaddiq.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

He doesn't have to be a good person, but he understands how the world and humans work. If you have two factions / countries and one is really powerful and the other is weak, the powerful one will always try to exploit the weak. This happens in the real world so it's not debatable. It's plain reality. But if both factions are equally strong, economically and militarily, an effect of mutual deterrence is achieved. It's not like they will start to like each other. That would never happen. That's something you would only expect from Disney shit. But they would not mess with each other carelessly anymore. We see it in the real world, for example between the US and China. They're big economical and geopolitical rivals, but they won't jump into a armed conflict because they know they would not achieve anything but destroying each other and maybe the whole world along with them.

That's the sort of deterrence effect Shaddiq wants to achieve by bolstering Earth's economy and weaponry to level the playing field with Space. It's a dangerous plan but it's reasonable and takes into account that you can't force people to stop hostilities. People need to find their own reasons to stop. And generally that reason is driven by economical interest and power dynamics.

No, Shaddiq is deluded, utterly, with a superiority complex.

The sad and pathetic reality is that he was rejected by his childhood crush Miorine who he asked to take over the entire Benerit Group with him. He fully intended to rule space with her, because he respected her and hoped she respected him back.

But Miorine wasn't into him like that (she viewed him as a peer and friend), knew he had become selfish & arrogant, felt he had become just as tainted in elitism as everyone else around her, and ultimately still thought he acted like a child.

...and he does.

He was true and honest with Miorine when he proposed they join forces. Her rejection shocked him into a bitter state where he came up with a new plan over the past few month. Shaddiq plays a big game, but he is completely outclassed, and perpetually too arrogant to realize it. He tries to present himself as a half-Earther to somehow ingratiate himself to "empower" Earth and reset the balance of the solar system's economy. But he will never earn the respect of Earthers. Even Sabina doesn't consider herself from Earth anymore, and after an entire life in privilege in space, Shaddiq will look like a sad politician angling for votes from a base that won't believe him for a second. Just like Norea...a Spacian is a Spacian.

Shaddiq continually overleverages himself with the delusion that he can actually control any of it with his smarts or charisma. The only truly loyal people he has are the harem, or so we think. It's probably only Sabina when it comes down to it. Shaddiq juggles a dozen threats and tells himself he has them all under his control. Even in the makeshift prison, we can see that El5n has a better read on people than Shaddiq ever will.

The hags just signed a deal with him. They're known to backstab and exploit everyone they work with. They still view Real Elan as the true successor to their business, and have told him that even with his double missing, it's still not the right time.

You know what would be a perfect way to undermine and ruin Shaddiq from the hags' perspective? Shaddiq is harboring fake Elan to use against them. But all they need to do to immediately it turn around on Shaddiq by beating him to the announcement and claim Grassley is trying to kill and replace their heir.

He still wants Miorine to accept his offer. He's trying to buy the loyalty of a planet she is fascinated with to present it to her. He's going to get annihilated, either by Propsera, by the hags, or lose everything when he once again fails to account for the reality of the factions he is toying with.

edit:
The biggest difference between Shaddiq and Miorine is arrogance. She steps herself into situations where she's out of her league. She asks for help, even from people she thought she hated, people who she doesn't fully trust, but doesn't follow them blindly (except for this episode). Shaddiq believes he's the smartest person around, and never asks for advice. Why should he? He already knows "the answer."

[Frontier]

At this point I think Nika's best shot at redeeming herself is by getting free and exposing everything considering she now has information that screws over both Shaddiq and Peil...though that probably makes it harder for her to get free to do anything about it.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Frontier

I don't get the sense that he wants things to be more even.

It's what he said. I mean, sure, he could be lying, but that's a different thing altogether. My point is simply that the plan he talked about with his father makes some sense. If he goes for that plan and doesn't lose his way, he could actually put the conflict between Space and Earth to rest. It's a realistic plan, specially because it doesn't rely on using coercive force like Miorine's.

Originally Posted by Frontier

I think Miorine's understanding is that Quiet Zero is just going to mostly be shutting stuff off to de-escalate so that people will be forced to talk and negotiate rather than escalate to another Mobile Suit fight.

That's not how things work. You can't just expect people to talk and negotiate just because they're forced to. If anything, this would create even more tension because they're forced to. Force is not a solution.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

No, Shaddiq is deluded, utterly, with a superiority complex.

I'm not talking about Shaddiq himself. I'm talking about his plain. If he's not lying (and he might be, I'd give you that), then he's the only one with a reasonable plan to stop the conflict between Earth and Space.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's what he said. I mean, sure, he could be lying, but that's a different thing altogether. My point is simply that the plan he talked about with his father makes some sense. If he goes for that plan and doesn't lose his way, he could actually put the conflict between Space and Earth to rest. It's a realistic plan, specially because it doesn't rely on using coercive force like Miorine's.

Too bad he's in a Gundam show .

Though I think it is coercive, just in a different way. Like getting his father away and negotiating with Peil.

That's not how things work. You can't just expect people to talk and negotiate just because they're forced to. If anything, this would create even more tension because they're forced to. Force is not a solution.

I don't think Miorine views it as force though, more like a shutdown or negation.

[Key Board]

Prospera’s plan is looking more and more Evangelion

How far do you intend to expand the datastorm? The entire earth?

Melt some people into tang in the process?

//

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by TheDoctor324

Here's my question/concern, Eri has been "tanking" all the DS (Data Storm) damage/feedback so that Suletta can "open the door" to level 8. But now that we've seen that she's been "cursed" since infancy, has she been eased into the DS over time or will she be getting hit full force at even level 1-2? And if she were to get a new suit (probably the new Gundam we just saw, not gonna butcher the name) will any Gundbits it has be like Aerial's or will they be AI like Guel's last suit?

I think the fact that Suletta was still in the data storm once the score dropped to 0 (her, the Eris and Aerial have no glow) is a hint that she has some immunity unless hard info dumped like Eri did this episode.

Whatever that was acquire overtime or just Eri's genes is another question.

Schwarzette is the result of Prospera sharing "drone tech" to Jertuk, chance any AI it has was made by Prospera. Also, chance the drones on Guel's last suit also us Shin Sei "drone tech".

Prospera improving Ad Stella technological level everywhere!

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's what he said. I mean, sure, he could be lying, but that's a different thing altogether. My point is simply that the plan he talked about with his father makes some sense. If he goes for that plan and doesn't lose his way, he could actually put the conflict between Space and Earth to rest. It's a realistic plan, specially because it doesn't rely on using coercive force like Miorine's.

That's not how things work. You can't just expect people to talk and negotiate just because they're forced to. If anything, this would create even more tension because they're forced to. Force is not a solution.

It's not Miorine's plan, its Prospera's, and Cathedra leadership looking out for their "princess."

Miorine naively wanted to go unarmed, but that also would have meant she was acting on good faith.

Elnora wanted Miorine to go will full force so, "Earthers would take her seriously." Now that she has Aerial with her, we should have a good idea of why Elnora wanted Miorine to bring an army with her. Cathedra convinced Miorine to at least accept an honor guard.

Shaddiq's plan is just as naive as Miorine's current plan, the one manipulated by Elnora. All he would do is arm more people (Shaddiq's embezzlement, but telling himself and the harem that he will share the 'ownership' with Earth). Earthers aren't that interested in the "prosperity," at the moment. They're furious about all their dead. His delusion that it will somehow bring peace will go out the window the moment that mobile suit tech proliferates across Earth.

[Frontier]

I wonder if Eri can get at Kenanji in a Permet Storm.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Frontier

Too bad he's in a Gundam show

It's exactly because it's a Gundam show that it wouldn't surprise me if his plan succeeds after everything else fails. I mean, I'm sure no one is deluded enough to think Prospera's, and by extension Miorine's, plan can succeed. That's never gonna happen. Quiet Zero is billed as this dystopian machine for absolute control over the Galaxy. It doesn't matter if Miorine has good intentions. The thing itself is bad news all the same. And I'm sure Suletta's contribution to this story as the protagonist is to stop her mother and Miorine from making a horrible mistake.

I don't think Miorine views it as force though, more like a shutdown or negation.

Miorine's very shortsighted. We can agree on that.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Earthers aren't that interested in the "prosperity," at the moment..

I don't think so. Violent groups like Down of Fold are shown to be a minority. The people who sent Chuchu and the other Earth kids to the Academy, for instance, want a better tomorrow, and I think that's what most people on Earth want. But they can't get that until Space stops exploiting Earth.

[chaosprophet]

Originally Posted by Frontier

It's pretty clear Miorine is a kid out of her depth and just grasping at what she feels is the right thing to do while Prospera is coasting her along so she gets what she wants.

I mean, from what she's been told about Quiet Zero she probably will try to use it as a non-violent equalizer, but she doesn't know what Prospera really wants to do with it.

I don't know if Shaddiq is so much more reasonable so much as just trying to skew the conflict the other way around because of his own personal interests. He plays the game better but that doesn't make him a better person for it. It probably won't actually solve anything in the long run either.

It does seems like she needs the president of the group position, and for that someone to be aware of quiet zero and willing to go with it, to finish and activate it. Don't think it is likely they can activate it now.

Miorine plan seemed to be to try talking things out, without using weapons. Prospera was the one who said she needs to show force so she decided to bring aerial along. So using it wasn't what Miorine was thinking of.

[vic-vic]

Oh dear, Elnora REALLY had a lot of influental fugures in her pocket right now. Granted, most of these cahracters are kids and she is adult with an intense (Id even say insane) drive AND much more expirience and thus Mio and Guel have no chances against her (and IMHO Shaddiq wouldn't fare much better in the end).

It could be refreshing after all these times in anime where super-kids beats adults (with supposed years and years of expirience) in their games... but Prsopera are SO shady (and onbviovly not well in her head) that I really don't want to cheer for her

Especially after she "saved" Sletta at the end of the episode. Okay, thank you madam for giving Su a beacon to make sure she gonna be saved, but you know... maybe BRINGING her back with that huge robot of daughter you have there IS a sole right choice, no?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Speaking of Schwarzette, I'm glad that the show actually planted the subplot & hints at it since episode 2 with Vim's backdoor-dealings with Prospera. Otherwise, it can easily feel like an asspull. But Peil apparently beat Jeturk to the punch by completing Pharact waaay before Schwarzette (after receiving Aerial's data in episode 3 that prospera promised in episode 2). They worked on Pharact so goddamn fast (sasuga AI-led company ).

Originally Posted by ryllharu

I'm starting to wonder if we've been misled about her the entire series.

Consider that we've basically been watching the entire series from the perspective of the villain's patsies (Suletta and Miorine), who despises the Spacians almost as much as Norea does, if not more. Several of the twists have been telegraphed carefully across multiple episodes. "Hidden" from the audience because of the deliberately limited perspective we get.

The main cast of the series are generally princes and princesses of megacorporations or massive conglomerates, plus Chuchu (skilled Earther with a scholarship from her factory) and Nika (spy). Fans even root for the malevolent, selfish, and jilted Shaddiq as if he should be the main character.

Then we have Secelia. She's apparently from one of the much smaller Burion House with the blue haired boy usually beside her. Yet, she sits on the Dueling Council as its third in line behind the great houses. Her so-called tiny house with very little influence.

You know what mobile suits they make? Because I didn't until I just looked it up.
All the trainers at the school, and the generic security suits we see getting vaporized by Dawn of Fold or in the riots on Earth, defending every important asset in space at the public level.

We've absolutely seen her drop the act and show real concern when actual lives are at stake. Secelia is in the position to hear all the gossip, all the backstabbing, all the arrogant posturing from the future leaders. Maybe she's just been nasty and vicious to the callous, detached, and arrogant main houses all this time. It's the only time we really see her; interacting with the other corporate elites.

I was thinking she was working for the Space Assembly League. I'm starting to think she works for the school itself. She's behind the wall of a seemingly secure counseling space, after all.

Well, that certainly would be fascinating if true. I really wanna see the show does something more with her other than being a snarky-thighs commentator .

Originally Posted by vic-vic

It could be refreshing after all these times in anime where super-kids beats adults (with supposed years and years of expirience) in their games... but Prsopera are SO shady (and onbviovly not well in her head) that I really don't want to cheer for her

Gundam IBO really showed the audience how a competent & seasoned adult can play the young protags like a goddamn fiddle all the way of S2 to the end....which is depressing but also realistic.

[vic-vic]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Gundam IBO really showed the audience how a competent & seasoned adult can play the young protags like a goddamn fiddle all the way of S2 to the end....which is depressing but also realistic.

And this is the reason Why Gundam IBO one of my favorite Gundam shows and Rustal Ellion is my favorite Gundam's villain

Still, Prospera just leaving Suletta to float in space (okay, with emergency beacon)... is a such bitch move!!!

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Speaking of Schwarzette, I'm glad that the show actually planted the subplot & hints at it since episode 2 with Vim's backdoor-dealings with Prospera. Otherwise, it can easily feel like an asspull. But Peil apparently beat Jeturk to the punch by completing Pharact waaay before Schwarzette (after receiving Aerial's data in episode 3 that prospera promised in episode 2). They worked on Pharact so goddamn fast (sasuga AI-led company ).

They had Bel working for them the past ten years at least. Pharact wasn't built in a matter of months.

They were just able to reveal its new weapons faster thanks to the "offer" to share technology.

[Collbrande-Ex]

Well this has no chance of blowing up in their face, Elnora and Eri definitely just planted the biggest bomb possible into their plan.

Ditching her in space was extreme though especially in that emotional state. If she goes homicidal I think this could be a minor factor.

The phone with the wishlist going black was nice considering after this I doubt that list is going to have any importance to Suletta ever again or just until the end of the series.

Also considering I haven't read the novel for Witch from Mercury does it ever confirm the fates of all three Vanadis incident units

One - destroyed
One - escapes becoming Aerial
One - last seen inoperable but intact

The reason I am asking is that I highly doubt Elnora has dished out the best stuff to everyone else in regards to Gund-bit tech.

Lfrith series if any originals are properly functioning or repairable are your best at getting a good base to make a unit to match Aerial. Doubt anything Benerit can pop out can match them.

Well Pharact is pretty good(but they have been doing RnD for it for years) but no way Suletta will get a hold of it let alone find people to give it a major overhaul.

Might need an enhanced human to use it at 100% or as some have speculated someone that has built up a resilience to the influence of GUND format.

Finally we have Bel that will tell SAL everything that is happening even if it results in life in prison because she can see this is heading towards the polar opposite of what GUND format was meant to do. Question is will she warp her principles even more to achieve that because she is one of the only survivors of Vanadis incident therefore best choice for new unit if one ends up in the works

[Wandering Soul]

I have to wonder if we're going to get some reaction from Prospera towards Kenanji. He helped deal the killing blow to her husband, so that might be referenced. That said, she worked with Deiling just fine, so she's more than capable of restraining herself.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Collbrande-Ex

Also considering I haven't read the novel for Witch from Mercury does it ever confirm the fates of all three Vanadis incident units

One - destroyed
One - escapes becoming Aerial
One - last seen inoperable but intact

The Cradle Planet novel is mostly about Suletta's life on Mercury narrated by Aerial. So there's no further confirmation on those other two units.

Originally Posted by Collbrande-Ex

The reason I am asking is that I highly doubt Elnora has dished out the best stuff to everyone else in regards to Gund-bit tech.

Mind you that the manga Vanadis Heart pointed out that there are some Vanadis scientists/mechanics/engineers still out there even 5 years after the Prologue event like Belmeria. One of them is Vilda Miren:

Images

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Now, you can use your imagination on who built those Lfrith variants that DoF possessed & used these days.