Code Geass R2 - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating

[azul120]

He may have been quite self-absorbed and arrogant, but you clearly missed a lot of details if you thought Lelouch didn't care for anything but revenge.

Besides, aside from Nunnally and Euphie, his fellow family members really were no less tainted than he was, and they didn't even have the excuse of going through much of the crap he did, and they, with the possible exception of Schneizel, were just fine with the Britannia status quo of discrimination, which Lelouch was at least willing to break. (Unless you count Charles and V. V.'s own past and secret distaste of said social malaise, but they had both long since certifiably passed the Moral Event Horizon, so that's basically null and void for them.)

And that includes Cornelia, who was quite willful in her enforcement of said discrimination, and yet you defended her side at the same time yesterday in the other thread.

I would pontificate on what you said about Kallen being useless, but I'm sure someone else here will do it.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by azul120

I would pontificate on what you said about Kallen being useless, but I'm sure someone else here will do it.

no point really
the very fact that the kallen thread just broke 1000 pages should really say all that there is to say about that comment

[Xander]

The irony is that one could argue that the relative and absolute numbers of posts from both Kallen lovers and Kallen haters, whether in Animesuki or elsewhere, don't really mean anything, either way, but then again that won't change anyone's opinion either.

Honestly, I think it's better to trade arguments and not...do something else. Kallen wasn't the protagonist, by any means, but I think she did have a role to play in terms of the plot and that was enough for me. She didn't need to be too complex of a character in order to be interesting and, while her background wasn't used much, it was at least presented and provided us with her motivation. Compared to a lot of the cast, which didn't get even this much focus, that was pretty good.

Whether people like her hotheaded personality or not, whether they like her physical traits (read: character design and its use for fanservice purposes) or not, whether they liked her use as a mecha pilot or not, whether they liked her interactions with Lelouch or not...that's all a matter of preference and opinion. I can say I did, but if others don't...well, what can be done? Nothing, unless people are open to debating the issue.

[azul120]

True, but opinions have to have some sort of factual grounding, something that Dyllani totally lacked when he/she said that Kallen brought nothing to the story. Nothing could have been further from the truth.

[Dyllani]

Originally Posted by azul120

He may have been quite self-absorbed and arrogant, but you clearly missed a lot of details if you thought Lelouch didn't care for anything but revenge.

Besides, aside from Nunnally and Euphie, his fellow family members really were no less tainted than he was, and they didn't even have the excuse of going through much of the crap he did, and they, with the possible exception of Schneizel, were just fine with the Britannia status quo of discrimination, which Lelouch was at least willing to break. (Unless you count Charles and V. V.'s own past and secret distaste of said social malaise, but they had both long since certifiably passed the Moral Event Horizon, so that's basically null and void for them.)

And that includes Cornelia, who was quite willful in her enforcement of said discrimination, and yet you defended her side at the same time yesterday in the other thread.

I would pontificate on what you said about Kallen being useless, but I'm sure someone else here will do it.

Lelouch was who he was, but all I saw was an arrogant child with a vendetta. It's possible, that there was more driving him than just revenge. I'm sure he even cared about his pawns. It's just that I felt like his entire rebellion was about daddy failing him. You know, I think truly he fooled himself into believing that it was for Nunnally or the Japanese, but it wasn't. It was about his need for vengeance and he got it. He got his truth. He got to tell mommy and daddy that they were horrible. But now, people were dead, and he needed to make those "sacrifices" mean something. So even if it meant thousands, no, hundred of thousands more were going to die, he had to do it. For peace. Now, I say he just wanted to ease his his guilty conscience, have a "yay, I did good" moment before he died, but whatever. Maybe I'm not being fair to Lelouch, but that's how feel...

The Royal Family wasn't perfect. Their ideals, whether we agree with them or not, were shaped by their upbringings. By virtue of their birth, they were superior to everyone else. They had privilege and power. As we know, power can corrupt. From the looks of things, Charles knocked up ever other female in his court, there could have been many more in the family like Nunnally and Euphemia. Or not, who knows? Sometimes people see things that are wrong, but do nothing stop it. They accept the status quo, even if they don't agree with it. Schneizel may not have liked his father's Ideology, but for years he conquered nations in his father's name. Cornelia, she bought into it. She truly believed that her country was something worth fighting for.

By all account, Lelouch was happy and content with his Britannian childhood. I'm sure there were a few asses he didn't like, but he had a good mom and siblings that he got along with. Had Marianne and Nunnally, not become victims of V.V.'s jealousy, Lelouch would have grown up every bit as twisted (in the Britannian sense) as his siblings, IMO. Lelouch had the unique benefit of being cast out of La La Land. I could put Cornelia in his place, her and Euphie being cast aside, and we probably be watching a very similar show. Clovis... he'd crawl into a corner and die. Lelouch didn't break away from "weak is bad and strong is good", because he wanted to. He was forced to. He had to for his and Nunnally's sake.

Kallen. Useless!

Code Ceass was an awesome show (Season 1), I just didn't like Lelouch. Hated Kallen. Was iffy on Suzaku. Thought Cornelia Li Britannia was awesome...

[bladeofdarkness]

so you didnt like 3 of the main characters of the show
and the one character you find fit to name as awesome is ONE of the antagonists
what exactly did you LIKE about it then

[Dyllani]

Sure, I didn't really like those 3, but I loved the overall flow of the story, especially in Season 1. Lelouch, C.C., what-her-name-zero-fangirl, Suzaku, Euphie and everybody else did their thing. I bawled for Suzaku when dumbass turned his woman into the terminator. I gasped when the Schniezel made his grand appearance in the Avalon. My heart broke for Cornelia when Euphie died. Ashford Academy brought just the right bit of comedy to Code Geass. Their were even a few brief moments when I didn't hate Lelouch. C.C. was awesome. Cornelia was extra awesome. Llyod and Cecile stole ever scene they was in. Hell, I had a man crush on Schniezel, until he shot poor sweet Cornelia. I liked the show, I just wasn't in love with those 3...

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Dyllani

Sure, I didn't really like those 3, but I loved the overall flow of the story, especially in Season 1. Lelouch, C.C., what-her-name-zero-fangirl, Suzaku, Euphie and everybody else did their thing. I bawled for Suzaku when dumbass turned his woman into the terminator. I gasped when the Schniezel made his grand appearance in the Avalon. My heart broke for Cornelia when Euphie died. Ashford Academy brought just the right bit of comedy to Code Geass. Their were even a few brief moments when I didn't hate Lelouch. C.C. was awesome. Cornelia was extra awesome. Llyod and Cecile stole ever scene they was in. Hell, I had a man crush on Schniezel, until he shot poor sweet Cornelia. I liked the show, I just wasn't in love with those 3...

thats the part i dont really get
granted, you can love whatever character you want
but poor sweet cornellia ?
in season 1 (which you claim to like more) britannia was portrayed with all the warmth and depth of nazi germany in most WWII movies
a conquering empire fighting against the entire world, who discrimintes all other people as lessers (numbers) and led by a darwinist madman who believes in might makes right above all else
and cornellia was portrayed as one of the most hardcore in those beliefs among them
1)she sets up a massacre similler to what happened in shinjiku for the sole purpose of luring zero out (basiclly saying, if you dont come, i'm going to start slaughtering people)
2)she shelves the most powerful KMF ever built (at that stage) which had repeatedly proven its EXTREMELY powerful abilities, just becouse its pilot is a number (and she doesnt change that choice even after it bites her in the ass in narita, when kallen shows her what an 11 can do, and suzaku is the one who saves her ass)
3)she later on has the same reaction to when suzaku is CHOSEN by her sister as her knight, and when euphie forms the SAZ
with the exception of her interactions with euphie, she is portrayed as cold heartedly and racist as any other britannian
you can like her for lots of reasons, she IS pretty awesome in some ways
but her "poor sweet" side is hardly one of her main traits ?

in fact MOST (if not ALL) of the characters you named are britannian
who were NOT portrayed in a very positive light during most of the show
i liked Llyod and Cecile too, but even THEY had parts where they made me wonder if they are suffering from the sunnydale syndrom about what use their work is put to

[azul120]

Word bladeofdarkness. If you're going to not hold out sympathy for Lelouch, that's one thing. But overlook what Cornelia did at the same time, let alone the fact that she didn't have to put up with as much hardship as Lelouch did? Downright hypocritical. And that's the issue I have with the camp that hates Lelouch yet adores Cornelia. That girl was Dick Cheney with a uterus.

The worst part was that in addition to that, while Lelouch atoned for what he did through Zero Requiem, Cornelia all but got off scot free in the end. One of the show's biggest Karma Houdinis.

Almost forgot:

Originally Posted by Dyllani

By all account, Lelouch was happy and content with his Britannian childhood. I'm sure there were a few asses he didn't like, but he had a good mom and siblings that he got along with. Had Marianne and Nunnally, not become victims of V.V.'s jealousy, Lelouch would have grown up every bit as twisted (in the Britannian sense) as his siblings, IMO. Lelouch had the unique benefit of being cast out of La La Land. I could put Cornelia in his place, her and Euphie being cast aside, and we probably be watching a very similar show. Clovis... he'd crawl into a corner and die. Lelouch didn't break away from "weak is bad and strong is good", because he wanted to. He was forced to. He had to for his and Nunnally's sake.

Correction: he was happy with his Britannian childhood, until the incident where his mother was killed and his sister was crippled. When he confronted his father about the incident and why little was done to prevent it, his father told him that violent struggles for the royal throne were the norm. It was upon hearing this that Lelouch said he no longer wanted part of the royal family, and in response to this, Charles told him he was dead inside, and exiled him and Nunnally to Japan. This was covered in flashback in the intro to stage 7 of season 1. In short, it was because he already disagreed with the Social Darwinism that he was cast out.

Cornelia, she bought into it. She truly believed that her country was something worth fighting for.

For someone who bought it, she sure loved what she was doing. The bloodlust on her face and pure venom in her words was hella scary.

Kallen. Useless!

If it weren't for her, Lelouch would've given up his rebellion early on in R2. And she was the only one who picked up on the Zero Requiem through pure intuition. I could go on...

I bawled for Suzaku when dumbass turned his woman into the terminator.

Oh yeah, like he meant to do that, or even wanted to.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by FruitsPunchSamurai

Correction, if it weren't Rolo and his friends he would have given up his rebellion, also by pure intuition do you mean cop out, cause that's all I saw considering there was no mention that she knew about the plan and was gunning to kill Lelouch the previous episode how she managed to put two in two together in that span but had no understanding of Lelouch's plan previous was just a way to save her derailment.

Actually Rolo showing up right after Kallen did threatened to negate what Kallen did, as he nearly convinced Lelouch to give up being Zero once and for all. While the fireworks scene did give him that ultimate push, Kallen's appearance was the significant earlier push.

Hmmm...still responsible though, milking out her demise to the public doesn't make him any better.

What I was saying was that it affected Lelouch too, contrary to the apparent feelings of viewers who hated him for that incident. And while it was crass and disrespectful to use the incident as an impetus for the Black Rebellion at the expense of her good name, he had no other apparent course of action at the time when it came to neutralizing Britannia, and trying to explain what happened might not have worked, and in a worst case scenario, it made him look like a sympathizer to the then oppressive Britannia in front of an enraged Japanese public.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by azul120

Actually Rolo showing up right after Kallen did threatened to negate what Kallen did, as he nearly convinced Lelouch to give up being Zero once and for all. While the fireworks scene did give him that ultimate push, Kallen's appearance was the significant earlier push.

People ignoring the facts, what can you do? Even the writers said, that this scene was supposed to be a very significant scene for Lelouch, firstly initiated by Kallen. Ah.

[bladeofdarkness]

actually, she DID change him the most
its not like his friends got him thinking that he needs to be zero again
what they did was show him that the "better world" he was trying to create was already there, and he just had to get the people he loves back to it
kallen was the one who got him to understand that his fight is about MORE then just nunnaly, and that there are OTHER people who depend their hopes and dreams on him
there by changing him from a self-centered (or sis-centered) dick into into a LESS self-centered dick
which is more then anyone ELSE did

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

actually, she DID change him the most
its not like his friends got him thinking that he needs to be zero again
what they did was show him that the "better world" he was trying to create was already there, and he just had to get the people he loves back to it
kallen was the one who got him to understand that his fight is about MORE then just nunnaly, and that there are OTHER people who depend on him

People are just ignoring facts blade, i am giving up. One of the rules stated not long ago in this same section {oh hai, i am going by the books lately, yah} that we should not engage in troll replies, so shall we go and reply to something better? 8)

p.s i agree with what you said, like 95% btw.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

People are just ignoring facts blade, i am giving up. One of the rules stated not long ago in this same section {oh hai, i am going by the books lately, yah} that we should not engage in troll replies, so shall we go and reply to something better? 8)

p.s i agree with what you said, like 95% btw.

95% ?

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by azul120

Not to mention that he's accusing other people of failing to back themselves up. Major case of pot/kettle/black.

Oh you should not worry about that, most of the times, when we cannot support our opinions, we go to delete-post, that is nice and so easy. 8D

Btw, i do agree with what you said about the Euphie-incident, you pretty much summed it up in a nice way.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Oh you should not worry about that, most of the times, when we cannot support our opinions, we go to delete-post, that is nice and so easy. 8D

Btw, i do agree with what you said about the Euphie-incident, you pretty much summed it up in a nice way.

Thanks. Though I can't blame anyone too much for disagreeing on the Black Rebellion part. Provided with good reason, at least.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by azul120

Thanks. Though I can't blame anyone too much for disagreeing on the Black Rebellion part. Provided with good reason, at least.

not sure i understand what you mean
can you expand

[Solace]

Get back on topic. Last I checked this wasn't the Kallen thread.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

not sure i understand what you mean
can you expand

I'm referring to Lelouch starting the Black Rebellion on account of the SAZ massacre.

[bladeofdarkness]

lelouch was PLANNING the black rebellion well before (they spend ep 21 planing it)
he just put his plan into action using the SAZ as the wind at his back

Get back on topic. Last I checked this wasn't the Kallen thread.

never said it was
the debate (that part of it not composed of pointless trolling) was about LELOUCH and what effected him in ep 7 the most
then it sorta got derailed