Sword Art Online - "Real-World" and Legal Implications [Speculation, NO Spoilers]

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Oroboro

I think the human element has a lot to do with it too. If you do nothing and leave them alone, there's a decent chance they'll survive. But if you try to save them, there's a pretty good chance something goes wrong and you kill them, and this time their death is on your hands.

Suppose they get a decent idea on how to disarm the device from used copies. A couple families volunteer their loved ones, hoping for a miracle, but the first couple attempts are failures. There's a huge public backlash, and even if they feel like they might be getting close, nobody is willing, and they can't just go experimenting on people without friends or family.

This is all just speculation, but I think that's ultimately why the NervGear was never cracked. Because nobody wants the death of an innocent on their hands if they should fail.

Probably. A lot of people that talk about ways NerveGear could have been removed seem to forget that failure = death of a player. Worst case scenarios involve killing large numbers of them with a single mistake, or freeing some, only for the system to catch on, and kill the rest.

Authorities charged with dealing with the incident would be very hesitant to try and free people that way because of the risks. Any politician that pushed them into careless attempts that got people killed could likely kiss re-election goodbye.

Even if you are willing to attempt to free people, it's going to be difficult to make the attempt. You'd have to get the consent of family members, and a lot of family members aren't going to want to consent, and even for family members that would consent, they might be the families of players you really don't want to experiment on. For example, a failed attempt at freeing someone resulting in the death of the leader of a frontline guild would actively harm players chances of escaping instead of being just one more casualty.

Bottom line is that even if a means exists of freeing the players from the NerveGear, trying to find it would be the proverbial minefield.

Originally Posted by Vmem

now I've been having this weird thought. so after a few weeks pass after SAO started, thousands of people have already died, that's thousands of NERVEGEAR helmets freed up for research in fully gov't funded (probably heavily privately funded as well) research to figure out how to get the rest of the trapped people out without killing them. now you mean to tell me the entire nation of Japan can't figure out this one puzzle over YEARS? I would've just put maybe 10 or 20 on manequins, turn them on and shoot parts with a gun or hit it with a hammer lol, eventually I'd find the right place to hit to disable the "microwave emitting" chip

Difficulties with freeing users was never a result of a lack of NerveGear to experiment on. NerveGear isn't some magical black box for which only 10,000 exist. It's a commercial product, with known designers and manufacturers. It's basically a cross between a computer, and a next generation videogame console that you wear on your head. If they needed some to experiment with for physical destruction experiments, they could order as many as they need, with the only question being who pays for them.

The problem is that destroying it physically isn't going to be so simple. Kayaba designed the NerveGear, so he also got to make it as tamper proof as he could get away with. The only surefire way to physically disable it is likely disconnecting the battery. In the name of quality and robustness, the NerveGear can be made pretty durable making that difficult. It's case isn't going to be cheap plastic, it's going to be metal like a computer case. The battery's connection is likely located around the base of the skull. In other words any force sufficient to breach the case and destroy the battery's connection, stands a high chance of being transmitted to the back of the wearer's head, in what's probably the worst place to get hit in the head. It's not very helpful to prevent the SAO players from dying from microwaves frying their brain, only to kill them with blunt force trauma to the brain. And of course even if they do come up with a method of removing it 100% successfully, they'd have have to apply it simultaneously to all SAO players, without the media catching wind of it for fear of Kayaba learning of it and taking steps to prevent it.

The bottom line is that the potential for failure would be extremely high, and no one would want the responsibility, or the liability.

[kyp275]

@Kronos

Basically, people doesn't seem to realize that it's effectively a hostage situation where there are 10k hostages with bombs strapped to them with a guy holding a detonator that can kill all of them at any time, and he isn't gonna just stand there while the authorities frees a couple hostages at a time.

[miroku2192]

Mod Edit: This conversation topic carried over from the Episode 23 discussion thread.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Not really. She's been dead for months. Maybe more than a year. Why reopen old wounds? And what could he tell them?

Proper closure for himself and for the parents. I'm sure the parents would welcome any extra news about their daughter since he's the only one (aside from Asuna) who knows of how she really died in game/what it was like for her. The fact that she died smiling to some extent is also something reassuring for the parents, knowing their daughter didn't die in vain/scared/etc.

[Oroboro]

While it would certainly be interesting, (I'm half tempted to bust out the old fanfic chops again), I think Kirito as a person would honestly be far too scared to even consider doing something like that, and the person who could push him into it (Asuna) doesn't know how much it weighs on him since he keeps that burden to himself.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by miroku2192

Proper closure for himself and for the parents. I'm sure the parents would welcome any extra news about their daughter since he's the only one (aside from Asuna) who knows of how she really died in game/what it was like for her. The fact that she died smiling to some extent is also something reassuring for the parents, knowing their daughter didn't die in vain/scared/etc.

He would have nothing to back up his claim, and more importantly, he'd be telling people who couldn't understand.

[Dengar]

There's also the matter of whether the family who has probably tried their hardest to move on even appreciates the reminder of that hearbreaking event that happened over a year ago.

[miroku2192]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He would have nothing to back up his claim, and more importantly, he'd be telling people who couldn't understand.

Can't tell if you're purposely trying to go against everything I say...but, sure, you can claim he has no official proof since no official news was released regarding the "hero" of the game that defeated the SAO boss, Kayaba.

Secondly, people who couldn't understand? What? I'd beg to differ; parents that have lost a loved one/child in such a gruesome game/way would love to know the truth behind their child's death.

Originally Posted by Dengar

There's also the matter of whether the family who has probably tried their hardest to move on even appreciates the reminder of that hearbreaking event that happened over a year ago.

Firstly, I highly doubt they'd be able to just "move" on after a year. As a parent, they would want to know what exactly happened to their child in hopes of finding some justice for their child's death. You don't simply just "forget" or choose to forget. Any level of reassurance and hope would help a lot more in getting them to move on than leaving them in a shroud of darkness/mystery.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with the both of you here. But this is all subjective again, so can we not argue about this random off topic crap now and just move on?

[Clarste]

It's important to keep in mind that from the perspective of the people outside, everyone trapped in the game was just in a coma. They might know intellectually that the players were fighting for their lives and interacting with others, but all they saw was a poor victim slowly wasting away in a hospital. And sometimes they die. From the family's perspective, she was just a victim of a terrorist attack and wasn't lucky enough to recover. The idea that she had a "life" in the game would just agitate them more than anything else. They already have closure, or at least as much closure as people ever get in reality. Or... actually I guess catching Kayaba would give them closure.

This isn't just random speculation, this is exactly what Suguha said in one of her monologues. Kirito's adventures in SAO never felt at all real to her, and she certainly never considered that he would be changed or traumatized by it. She just watched him in a coma for two years and then he woke up.

[Oroboro]

Originally Posted by Clarste

It's important to keep in mind that from the perspective of the people outside, everyone trapped in the game was just in a coma. They might know intellectually that the players were fighting for their lives and interacting with others, but all they saw was a poor victim slowly wasting away in a hospital. And sometimes they die. From the family's perspective, she was just a victim of a terrorist attack and wasn't lucky enough to recover. The idea that she had a "life" in the game would just agitate them more than anything else. They already have closure, or at least as much closure as people ever get in reality. Or... actually I guess catching Kayaba would give them closure.

This isn't just random speculation, this is exactly what Suguha said in one of her monologues. Kirito's adventures in SAO never felt at all real to her, and she certainly never considered that he would be changed or traumatized by it. She just watched him in a coma for two years and then he woke up.

Pretty much this. I imagine the vast majority of the public is completely unable to comprehend what Sword Art Online truly meant to the people inside of it, and given its incredibly limited release, even by the time ALO is thing I imagine 95% or more of Japan's population has never even stepped inside of virtual reality.

Not something you can really explain.

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by Oroboro

Pretty much this. I imagine the vast majority of the public is completely unable to comprehend what Sword Art Online truly meant to the people inside of it, and given its incredibly limited release, even by the time ALO is thing I imagine 95% or more of Japan's population has never even stepped inside of virtual reality.

Not something you can really explain.

Mad Scientist: Ha Ha Ha, I have trapped 10,000 people in my highly-advertised virtual reality universe, and if you try to remove their helmets they die in real life so don't try anything stupid!

Government Spokesperson: We believe it best to wait for the trapped players to clear the game instead of getting everyone killed if we mess up.

Parents of trapped players (according to GP): So they're in a coma?

Government Spokesperson: Well, not exactly, more like...

Parents of trapped players (according to GP): OK! So they're in some kind of coma and will die any time, thank you we won't try to understand more now excuse us while we go cry in this corner over there.

Government Spokesperson: Hey we got some material we compiled based on the developer's testimonies and... and... wait, where are you guys... hey?... don't you... want to know? Hello?

Edit: In addition, is the phenomena of parents spending extraordinarily large amount of time studying a subject if their child is afflicted with some life-threatening condition... unfamiliar to you guys?

[Oroboro]

Knowing something is true, and fully understanding what it means are different things.

Much of SAO was dedicated to the theme of players coming to terms with the concept that the reality they are in is [real]. It took many of them years to accept this, and some never did.

Looking in from the outside, you don't see their struggles, their fights, their moments lying in a field enjoying a sunset, sharing a meal and laughing with friends, or crying because their heart was broken. You just see them lying there, sleeping next to the endless beep of a hospital monitor. The idea that somewhere, they are [living] is there, but its a distant idea. It's the difference between visiting the worlds greatest wonders, and looking at pictures of them on the internet, or knowing that life sucks in third world countries compared to witnessing it firsthand.

I'm not discounting the experiences of parents and loved ones so easily (The general public though yeah probably), but even though Suguha started playing a ALO in an effort to understand her brother better, she never really "got it". She loved the freedom and exploration and flying, but it was all still a game to her, and when Kazuto came back, she didn't make the effort to understand what he had gone through.

Likewise, Kazuto made no effort to understand or care about what she was doing or going through (Because Asuna), and thus that brings us back to the conclusion reached in episode with the "Fairy Dance", where they essentially promise to try and understand one another better, and if they rescue Asuna they can be a family again.

(HAH. I knew I could work this into being on-topic.)

[Dengar]

Long story short: Parents can research SAO all they want but they can't know what it's like to be trapped in the game.

Originally Posted by miroku2192

Firstly, I highly doubt they'd be able to just "move" on after a year. As a parent, they would want to know what exactly happened to their child in hopes of finding some justice for their child's death. You don't simply just "forget" or choose to forget. Any level of reassurance and hope would help a lot more in getting them to move on than leaving them in a shroud of darkness/mystery.

First: Where, oh WHERE did I say the parents have moved on?

Second: They know what happened. She started playing a game that put her in a coma and subsequently killed her. That's what happened.

Oh, and just in case you're like "What happened in that game was REAL". Try being an actual outside observer. You won't feel the same.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by miroku2192

Can't tell if you're purposely trying to go against everything I say...but, sure, you can claim he has no official proof since no official news was released regarding the "hero" of the game that defeated the SAO boss, Kayaba.

It's more than that. He was the only eye witness of what happened. And very few people know he was involved with the Black Cats at all.

Secondly, people who couldn't understand? What? I'd beg to differ;

Plenty of tales of alienation from soldiers returning from war. Most notoriously Vietnam. Even when people try to understand, they can't. Now imagine that instead of fighting human beings in the real world, it's about fighting monsters in an artificial, shared dream world. Who the hell's going to understand that?

parents that have lost a loved one/child in such a gruesome game/way would love to know the truth behind their child's death.

They know she's dead because of Kayaba's manipulations. To know more would require them to know about MMORPGs. But ok, let's say they studied up on that, like Suguha. But that they took it even more seriously, to try and understand what their daughter went through. Also, because they want to torture themselves for some reason.

Even given all that, to understand Kirito's tale, they'd need to understand what a beater is, and the mistakes he made. It'd end up being about him a lot more than about Sachi. And what would be the point of that?

Firstly, I highly doubt they'd be able to just "move" on after a year. As a parent, they would want to know what exactly happened to their child in hopes of finding some justice for their child's death. You don't simply just "forget" or choose to forget. Any level of reassurance and hope would help a lot more in getting them to move on than leaving them in a shroud of darkness/mystery.

Even so, all Kirito could do would be to undo whatever little healing there's been.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with the both of you here. But this is all subjective again, so can we not argue about this random off topic crap now and just move on?

Then stop arguing instead of trying to get the last word.

[erneiz_hyde]

Can someone remind me how exactly the government explains the whole SAO incident to the public? Or, what exactly did Kayaba tell the government and what did the government decide to relay to the masses?

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Can someone remind me how exactly the government explains the whole SAO incident to the public? Or, what exactly did Kayaba tell the government and what did the government decide to relay to the masses?

I don't think we ever see it directly because the perspective for that arc stays completely within the game, but it seems to be generally assumed that he told them exactly what he told the players: that they die if the remove the helmet, they die if they die in-game, and that they're freed if they clear it. There's no indication that the government hid anything other than privacy-related information.

Well, he might have skipped the part about being stuck with their own faces because that's hardly relevant outside.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Clarste

I don't think we ever see it directly because the perspective for that arc stays completely within the game, but it seems to be generally assumed that he told them exactly what he told the players: that they die if the remove the helmet, they die if they die in-game, and that they're freed if they clear it. There's no indication that the government hid anything other than privacy-related information.

Well, he might have skipped the part about being stuck with their own faces because that's hardly relevant outside.

But if that is the case, imo the following doesn't really hold up:

Originally Posted by Clarste

It's important to keep in mind that from the perspective of the people outside, everyone trapped in the game was just in a coma. They might know intellectually that the players were fighting for their lives and interacting with others, but all they saw was a poor victim slowly wasting away in a hospital. And sometimes they die. From the family's perspective, she was just a victim of a terrorist attack and wasn't lucky enough to recover. The idea that she had a "life" in the game would just agitate them more than anything else. They already have closure, or at least as much closure as people ever get in reality. Or... actually I guess catching Kayaba would give them closure.

This isn't just random speculation, this is exactly what Suguha said in one of her monologues. Kirito's adventures in SAO never felt at all real to her, and she certainly never considered that he would be changed or traumatized by it. She just watched him in a coma for two years and then he woke up.

Because if the populace knew that they're actually still playing the game (supposedly, as relayed by government and mass media), then they don't view them as "just comatosed". Suguha should at least be able to empathize closer to Kirito especially after starting ALO herself. Speaking of ALO, the fact that people seems to accept the game just fine seems to me that the government is manipulating information. They probably make it so that no one suspects the software(the game itself) to be somewhat responsible and place all the blame on the hardware and Kayaba. That's why people are less wary even by simply replacing the Nerv-Gear.

probably the government announced it somewhat like this: "Kayaba has hijacked all online NervGear and put everyone under comatose and is able to send killer pulse to any individual unit should he feels like it" and no mention that they're actually struggling within the game to reach 100th level to escape the game.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

But if that is the case, imo the following doesn't really hold up:



Because if the populace knew that they're actually still playing the game (supposedly, as relayed by government and mass media), then they don't view them as "just comatosed". Suguha should at least be able to empathize closer to Kirito especially after starting ALO herself. Speaking of ALO, the fact that people seems to accept the game just fine seems to me that the government is manipulating information. They probably make it so that no one suspects the software(the game itself) to be somewhat responsible and place all the blame on the hardware and Kayaba. That's why people are less wary even by simply replacing the Nerv-Gear.

probably the government announced it somewhat like this: "Kayaba has hijacked all online NervGear and put everyone under comatose and is able to send killer pulse to any individual unit should he feels like it" and no mention that they're actually struggling within the game to reach 100th level to escape the game.

Someone mentioned Vietnam. That's... basically it. I've said since my first post on the subject that they may know "intellectually" what's going, but that of course has absolutely nothing to do with actually being able to relate to it. And of course Suguha playing ALO may show her what a VRMMO looks like, but she still has no idea what it's like to live in a death game. This is basic human psychology. You can't relate to what you can't relate to. No matter of information is going to change that.

[erneiz_hyde]

What is "relating" anyway? Sure, people outside may not be able to fully 'understand' what it's like inside, but surely people can also empathize? Or is empathizing alone does not mount to 'relate' with them? I believe empathy does allow some 'relation' though indeed it may not be as strong as 'fellow-sufferers' kind of 'relation'. But it shouldn't be "you either fully understand them or you don't".

And empathizing is better done with more information, so I disagree with "no information are going to change anything". However, I agree that some people are indeed unable to relate to what they can't relate to, just not everyone in general.

[Oroboro]

No amount of empathy, knowledge, or understanding will let you know what it's like the first time you step out of a plane to skydive. Or hell, understanding what [cold weather] really means if youve lived/ never left areas closer to the equator your entire life.The only way to know is to be there.

Maybe Sachii had great parents who would be comforted to know that at some point, their daughter was happy. But it's equally likely the information would just confuse or hurt them. The point about relatability is that there's no easy way for Kirito to explain with words what SAO meant. And considering how much he still blames himself anyway, would not likely be able to convey any information in a way that doesn't just open old wounds.

... Urge to write fan fiction... Must resist

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Oroboro

No amount of empathy, knowledge, or understanding will let you know what it's like the first time you step out of a plane to skydive. Or hell, understanding what [cold weather] really means if youve lived/ never left areas closer to the equator your entire life.The only way to know is to be there.

Indeed, I may never know for real if I never experienced it first hand. But I can create conjectures based on people's information who did experience them. The more people I ask, the more information I get, and the more vivid that conjecture becomes. Even if it will not be as vivid compared to first-hand experience, it certainly is not "nothing" nor "futile".

From your title and your sig, perhaps you can understand when I say "this is what R07/Beatrice wants the readers/Battler to do".

Originally Posted by Oroboro

Maybe Sachii had great parents who would be comforted to know that at some point, their daughter was happy. But it's equally likely the information would just confuse or hurt them. The point about relatability is that there's no easy way for Kirito to explain with words what SAO meant. And considering how much he still blames himself anyway, would not likely be able to convey any information in a way that doesn't just open old wounds.

With all that I've said however, I also agree that it's probably better for Kirito to not divulge information to Sachi's parents unless they actually pursues it, and perhaps even despite that (I'm 'pro golden-land', or 'anti trick-end', if you know what I mean, I can't conjure up the words to explain it).