2009-12-04, 18:53 | Link #1781 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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I doubt...if anything he would've gone serious at last. He almost defeated Berserker easily in an areial battle. Berserker was forced into defenisve as he had no way to break throug Gil's shields and he was assaulted constantly with swearm of Noble Phantasms. If Gil had a faint idea about the F-15's structures and the fact the Eldricht Ambionation Berserker supposed to crash into would dissapear instantly then he would've won eventually(Or if the tentacle monster disspear few seconds later and Gil's almost perfect plan finishes Berserker). And on the first encounter which you mentioned Gilgamesh would eventually get serious and use the abilities of his Noble Phantasms(for example sneak attack him with his Warp-Skythe...without instincts like Saber's Berserker is hopeless against it).
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2009-12-04, 19:56 | Link #1782 | |
Heroic Spirit
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Honestly, I'm getting the impression you're a little bit of a Gil-wanker here. Shirou pushed himself to his limits, and with an assload of external factors working in his favor, he managed to deal a wound to Gilgamesh. It is simply mind-boggling how you have so much trouble accepting this. |
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2009-12-05, 02:09 | Link #1783 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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No...I am more of a Servant wanker if anything. There's no way for a human to defeat a Servant in actual combat without a great surprise attack. And UBW's surprise long gone by then.
I am just a realist. If someone with better reflexes, strenght, agility, speed, endurance, senses, combat experience, intelligence(as Gil is quite intelligent actually even if super-arogant) fights then it's pretty much decided as an easy victory. Gil can't be cornered in melee as for a Servant Shirou's whole moveset is foolish even if the sword guides his strikes. Even if intentionally holding back Gil would still be superior enough to simply counter Shirou, a mere human with crude fighting skills and borrowed experience of the swords. Those are pretty much stated things in the VN. even with E class agility, endurance or strenght a Servant is over the limits of what a human can achieve. And Gil has the second best stats in the game(after berserker, if we don't count the corrupted Servants) And your speed-giving sword is somehow baseless as Nasu didn't mention it even once to be exisiting. It's possible to be existing but it's entirely speculation as we don't know what kind of weapons Gil urled at Shirou before. And alsoö inside UBW Shirou usually can't memorise new weapons(as it costs prana to do so...inverted rule). The fight's last part pissed me off so, because it completely changed Gil's character and power, to make him close to a whiny coward which he isn't(as any of the Heroic Spirits). It was a somehow underhanded method to make Shirou look like a total hero. |
2009-12-05, 05:38 | Link #1784 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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A theoretical Servant with an E in everything (like, say, Avenger) could easily be trounced by a powerful human... their only advantages are, yes, their immunity to nonmagical damage and sheer ability to keep going even when missing several appendages. |
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2009-12-05, 06:36 | Link #1785 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Doesn't it also cost extra prana to use a broken phantasm? I mean if it were a simple move to execute, why didn't Emiya chain spam them against Berserker? I should add that Emiya used a bow and loaded the broken phantasm as an arrow. Since the bow Emiya has is specific to his class as an Archer (to the extent of my knowledge anyway), where the hell will Shirou get a bow to launch his swords with? I think the best way to explain how the fight went is how your typical shonen fight usually goes. The big bad has this uber awesome power that should be insurmountable to the hero. Then out of nowhere the hero gains a new power inside of him! The hero then channels this new power along with guts and maybe a hint of stupidity and beats the big bad through sheer will! Hell the Gil/Shirou fight isn't even the largest plot hole that existed in UBW. A certain Emiya still lingering around to give the finishing blow cements the final nail in the WTFness that is UBW. |
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2009-12-05, 10:05 | Link #1786 | |||||||||
Heroic Spirit
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2009-12-05, 11:40 | Link #1787 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Oh and You say for somone a normal human's movement is like seeing a film in slow motion is a great surprise to see somone charging to him? No. Gil have plenty of time to counterattack and toss Shirou away with spilled guts the instant as he tries such a ridiculously idiotic move.
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2009-12-05, 12:25 | Link #1788 |
Onii-chan~
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Additionally, Gilgamesh shouldn't even qualify for Archer. If anything, Beserker, Saber, or maybe Lancer. With that in mind, you should remember how deadly he would be in close-quarters. Sadly, it'd probably be safer to fight that Archer from a distance.
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2009-12-05, 13:04 | Link #1789 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Yeah. Now imagine an "insane" Gilgamesh as Berserker. We all speculate how powerful would be a serious Gil...now imagine him ragefully ramaging at full power
Contrary to the belief Gil supposedly gone crazy or at least engrossed himself in greif after loosing the elixir of inmmortality. If we berlieve saber's words literally then he actually destroyed his own country soon after. If it's not enough to be counted as a berserker then... Also he's a damn good class for Saber too. He can be Lancer also with his agility. He can be Rider with Vimana(or other machine he also should be possessing). And according to few Gil might be able to cast spells too as his good understanding of magic and the statement of "He was the best in everything in his era" suggests. perhaps all those are speculations.We don't know Ea's post-retcon full power yet we actually can't be sure how much he holds back even against Saber. That's why Gilgamesh is the prime topic of powerlevel discussions |
2009-12-05, 13:08 | Link #1790 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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Technically, any legendary hero can be any class. The class just augments their natural abilities and changes their noble spirits. Because in reality probably Caster Shiro would be a pretty nasty person to deal with, and his noble spirit most likely would be some ridiculous overpowered reality marble. But the point is hero is not restricted by class, all that changes are their mana capabilities and the powers that are emphasized. Althought it would be hard to see Saber/arturia as a anything but saber/beserker class.
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2009-12-05, 13:47 | Link #1791 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Lancer and Rider actually can be pretty possible. Arthur had a named horse and a legandary spear, shield and dirk to use. So it's quite possible for her to become Lancer or Rider...though as Saber (s)he is the easiest to imagine.
And not every hero is good for any class. Actually there aren only a few with such wide palette of abilities. Heracles is one of those, Gilgamesh is likewise. But for Arthuria I can't imagine her as Arcehr or Cu Chunnlain as anything but Berserker or Lancer. Medea also pretty much hard to imagine as a fighter class. Archer is far unskilled to be a Caster...though he's good as Assassin(or Saber if he has much better stats) not just as Archer. Lastly I should mention Iskander who should be maybe even better as Saber and has some documented moments which enables him to be used as Berserker also. In short most of the Servants not only fit to a certain class though it's still rare for them to fit to almsot every single one. |
2009-12-05, 13:52 | Link #1792 | |||||
Heroic Spirit
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2009-12-05, 14:08 | Link #1793 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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LoL. You seemingly lack something. Nasu is a human. He can be wrong. And the story stated before how superhuman the Servants are. And it was stated earlier so it's the base of the things. And the thing Shirou did was contradictory to that. If you force yourself of the denial of Nasu can make errors then I don't have much to say. The way Shirou defeated Gilgamesh was full of plot errors.
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2009-12-05, 19:27 | Link #1794 | |
Heroic Spirit
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Keep deluding yourself if you wish. The facts are there. There are no mistakes. The only mistake is viewing the scene through a lens of bias and refusing to stretch your imagination a bit to encompass something that is completely valid. |
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2009-12-05, 19:43 | Link #1795 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Reasonable? Speed-giving sword which never gets mentioned...perfectly reasonable...yeah.
Do you know how the way of battles and fighting really work? Better physica stats and experiences almost always giving an upper hand. Even with sword-spamming abilities. If someone can react 3-5 times faster than the other then the other pretty much have close to zero chance to surprise that person. Even if the said person holds back. |
2009-12-06, 01:46 | Link #1796 | |||||||
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2009-12-06, 16:32 | Link #1797 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Been reading through a lot lately and if I have to give any reason why Shirou could win agains't a servant that has a inferior skill in noble phantasm usage (compared to other servants) it would be his self determination. To be more precisely his determination gives him some sort of self sugestion (see third personality Ryougi Shiki) that allows him to fight beyond his human limitations. Add his sword reading abilities to this and you basically get a pretty decent fighter. Gil at the final fight obviously underestimated this (+ his reality marble), and with Shirou having the advantage in sword speed + all of the above, his defeat really isn't that hard spell right? I doubt Nasu would just throw all the so called "rules" just give the golden boy a spanking.
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2009-12-06, 16:50 | Link #1798 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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But you disregard the huge rift between a mere human and a Servant in terms of fighting abilities. Shirou has no way to win by simply that. The only exception if he uses for example Overedge or something similar to confuse Gil,but he didn't. He was just marching forward like he's capable to fight with him on par. Gil would have plenty of way even there to kill Shirou and even if he still keeps up his arrogant reason to defeat Shirou's projections there's no way he can be beaten by Shirou in melee. Determined or not a superhuman still remains a superhuman who has thousands of ways to defeat the mere human opposing him. With the abilities of Servants there's no way Shirou can beat Gil in a fight...the only exception if he does surprise him with a battle technique(Overedge...), but he didn't even have a good plan there.
Nasu did a quite writing error in that fight. |
2009-12-07, 01:07 | Link #1800 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Last edited by frenze12; 2009-12-07 at 01:32. |
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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