2009-12-07, 03:38 | Link #1801 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Yeah,someone with ultra-hax limitless MeoDP(Shiki 3rd personality) or half-vampiric body full of crazy reinforcement spells(Ciel, who also has special Black Keys) is able to fight defensively against a Servant. Shirou obviously is much more inferior to them in terms of experience, strenght or speed(in Ciel's case).
And Gil isn't much inferior to anyoe in terms of fighting skills. The thing he lacks is perfect weapon expertise. But still he IS a Servant(and one of the best physically). And lastly UBW is only enough to Shirou have a way to counter GoB. It still doesn't give him suddenly enough power and weapon skill to beat a Servant in mellee! Gil or any other Servant would laught off such a foolish approach. I know Gil has to worry about UBW, but he can manage it due to his experience and reflexes. Not to mention the one he have to defeat is so nice and "walk"(as running by human speed is like that to a Servant) to him to be finihsed off. Shirou's projection can give him the sword's experience which shows in a more refined swing, but it still can't give him speed or strenght to be a threat. If Nasu's writing keeps up the realism Shirou would've ended up 20 meters away in a pool of blood after he tried to melee Gil. |
2009-12-07, 07:38 | Link #1802 | |
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2009-12-07, 07:49 | Link #1803 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Really? A human can jump 30-40 meters in lenght and else? Ciel is either by her being Roa's previous host or using reinforcement magic(or as I suspect both) can surpass human capabilities by far.
And Nasu did include Shiki's MEoDP as he also stated that R.Shiki with self-suggestion is about as good of a fighter as Taiga. And yes, Shirou did chop off Berserker's arm with a surprise attack and him being half-enceased in ice...really a valid point. If you mean the anime then it has tons of problems regarding the fights so leave it... If it's true then why Nasu didn't mention Shirou as someone being able to fight against Servants defensively? Nasu only mentioned Ciel and then added Shiki's 3rd personality as someone who might also be capable of doing something like that.(perhaps he might've only mentioned characters from other stories than FSN...I don't remember exactly). |
2009-12-07, 14:05 | Link #1804 |
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Not all Servants are proficient at close combat. Look at Caster, getting her ass completely kicked by Rin in close combat because that's not what she's good at. And I'm almost sure that Nasu stated normal Ryougi as about as good as swordsmanship as Taiga, not 3rd.
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2009-12-07, 16:01 | Link #1805 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Right...but Gilgamesh's whole legend and stats and the whole Fate scenario contradicts to that he isn't profient at all. He isn't a master of any weapon, but has extreme senses and experience and thus quite good fighting abilities. His sword-raining style is only a sign of his lasyness and arrogance to actively fight.
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2009-12-07, 16:13 | Link #1806 | |
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2009-12-07, 18:20 | Link #1807 |
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There really isn't any basis to judging Gilgamesh's swordsmanship. All that is really stated is that he is inferior to Saber in swordsmanship, which doesn't mean all the much considering how talented Saber is. There's no logic behind simply saying Gilgamesh is a Servant, therefore his swordsmanship exceeds all human swordsmanship.
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2009-12-07, 19:09 | Link #1808 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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But his obviously better than Archer's as he was disarmed 15 times in mere seconds by Lancer...somone who should be inferior in weapon mastery compared to Saber. While Saber had much more difficulties at disarming Gil at Ryoudo Temple. She did it abot 3 times at maximum in a multi-minute-long fight. And if Shirou's enchanced and well-experienced version is so inferior in terms of weapon skill then you can imagine how many chances Shirou should have realistically speaking.
And Ciel IS using reinforcements...or otherwise she shouldn't be able to be that fast. It is simple a rough fact of realism. If there's a way to make someone by pure capabilities and training to almost mach Dead Apostoles then the olimpic records should be much muhc more better, like achieving 100m dash under 3 seconds and else...which of course won't happen as there are certain limits of humans. So Ciel SHOULD use reinforcements and quite excellent ones. And it also has a quite explanation as she inherited the magical knownledge of Roa. |
2009-12-07, 19:45 | Link #1809 |
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It's actually not that easy to judge Lancer's weapon mastery. If your simply comparing by their first encounter, remember that Lancer was under the command spell and wasn't able to fight at his maximum power. And Saber was having difficulties fighting Gilgamesh because weapons kept on appearing out of his GoB, slowing her down. If it was simply a fight in pure swordsmanship, without GoB getting the way, there is little question of whether or not Saber would have demolished Gilgamesh in a swordfight.
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2009-12-08, 00:47 | Link #1810 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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No...it was a pure contest of swordsmanship until he got bored with it and unleashed GoB. Saber's main problem was that even when disarmed him a new sword apppeared in Gil's hand, but if we exclude that then actually fought with swords alone there.
And right, we don't know how goodLancer in melee is, but I bet he shouldn't be better than Saber...and Gilgamesh had a somehow normal fight with Saber while Archer had to resort to cheat against Lancer constantly just to keep up. Enough indication of the fact how weak Archer is even with the borrowed experience of the swords. |
2009-12-08, 01:31 | Link #1811 | |
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First, it's literally almost impossible to judge Lancer against Saber in melee. In fact, if you compare the two in pure stats, this being Shirou Saber who fought Gilgamesh against Lancer, Lancer actually has the upper hand there.
Also, in the Saber vs Gilgamesh fight, swords kept appearing from GoB to block for him. Or, to quote the game, Quote:
I'm almost sure Archer uses his own skill when wielding Kanshou and Bakuya. Which is almost the only thing he actually uses.
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2009-12-08, 03:18 | Link #1813 |
Onii-chan~
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I still can't grasp WHY Gilgamesh was made an Archer. I can understand the stretching of his myth (or actual history) for Gates of Babylon, as he did technically own everything in the world (all that lived outside of Mesopotamia died shortly afterward). Allowing him access to all Noble Phantasms, I can understand the stretch. Yet, making his class out of something already so stretched out? That's going too far. Gilgamesh was NOT famous for throwing rocks at people. He was famous for his strength, tyranical rule, his friendship with Enkindu, and his quest for immortality.
Oh, and willy, if Lancelot wasn't a Beserker, he wouldn't have sucked up so much mana with his NP, allowing him to use A Knight Does Not Die With Empty Hands much more freely. Even if he got hit with the warp scythe in the first fight, it would only work once. As Gilgamesh lacks Knowledge of Foremost Harmory, he can't use the same exact attack twice and expect it to work again (even a Beserker wouldn't fall for that... unless they were REALLY stupid... *cough* Don Quixote *cough*). Gilgamesh would have no effective way to win without pulling out Ea, and even then, Lancelot could close the distance in no time. With that in mind, Lancelot would likely be able to survive the first hit due to his high endurance and luck, allowing him to inflict a fatal wound with Arondite. I personally think it would've been more interesting that way.
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2009-12-08, 03:21 | Link #1814 | |
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2009-12-08, 09:12 | Link #1816 | |
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Spoiler for How to gangbang a tank:
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2009-12-08, 09:31 | Link #1817 | ||
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Also, the thing is, in the Nasuverse, apparently some people are able of achieving inhumanly specs through sheer training and without reinforcement. Example, Tohno Shiki. There's on way he's using reinforcement magic during Tsukihime, yet he still pulls off some impressive feats, like killing Nero's 999 beast form. And yes, he has MEoDP, but that doesn't do anything for his actual physical stats. Or, look at Kotomine from Fate/Zero, where he literally uproots a tree through sheer upper body strength.
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2009-12-08, 16:17 | Link #1818 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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And I thought Avenger was based mostly around counterattacking and being rather anti-heroic? Not just the relation to Angra Mainyu. |
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2009-12-08, 16:32 | Link #1819 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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We don't know if the Einzberns not made the Avenger class simply for the War itself later and they planned it specifically for Angra Mainyou...I have a feeling they did. If so then there's no other Avenger than Angra Mainyou. It's somehow like Hassan=Assassins
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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