Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[RadiantBeam]

I'm starting to get the urge to download Tsukihime and play it, now that I'm starting to see comments related to it.

[Haak]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! XD

Spoiler for Kohaku's route:

Chaos and SHIKI hanging out, drinking coffee like old buddies is probably one the funniest mood whiplashes I have ever come across. Oh God that was so random and brilliant.

But frankly I didn't think this route was anything spectacular. Kohaku as a tragic figure at Hisui's True End was much more of an impact than anything in Kohaku's actual route.

[DragoZERO]

Okay... I think you can take it to the Tsukihime thread now that you've done all the routes...

And consider playing it, RadiantBeam.

[DragoZERO]

Cont'd from Fate/Zero Anime thread.

Originally Posted by orion

But wasn't Heaven's Feel the least popular route of the 3? At least that's what I heard online. It's also has more questionable content that prob can't be shown in theaters or on TV. So if that's the case, then I wouldn't expect them to want to waste their money on it.

Originally Posted by swtrooper42

In the way the least popular of three great routes can be the least popular. It definitely is the most discussed.
I actually think it's the most epic of the three routes.
My favorite is still Unlimited Blade Works.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Heaven's Feel is the entire point of the original game. Also, all three of the original routes have "questionable content", and that never stopped them from being adapted before....

Originally Posted by Asuras

VHHAAATTT

Is this real? Hm... I've been waiting for something else Fate to come out.

Originally Posted by orion

Heaven's Feel has more questionable content that's inappropriate for theaters. HF is only 1 of 3 routes. I don't view it as the "entire point" of the game.

Originally Posted by swtrooper42

CG dragon, CG fish, and I believe Heaven's Feel has something about blood sucking. Plus that rather nice dream sequence involving Rin and Mitsuzuri.

But Heaven's Feel is what the entire game is about. It ties up the Grail War once and for all.

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

In bizzaro world, maybe. That's Fate by a long shot, and rightfully so.



But the "point" of the game is Shirou, not the Grail War.

They can adapt Heaven's Feel. The questionable content has already been adapted or told in other anime series and movies, so it's not like it'll be the first.

Everything has a certain point of view. In regards to the Holy Grail War, it's history and truths are revealed slowly through each route, which makes Heaven's Feel (the last one) the one that finishes the explaining, thus making it the most important. But it is not the point of the game or anything. Shirou is the main character. Everything is about him. Each route gives him different conflicts, externally and internally. Everything revolves around him.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Shirou is the main character. Everything is about him. Each route gives him different conflicts, externally and internally. Everything revolves around him.

Yes, and HF develops his character a huge amount, and shows both the problem with his borrowed ideal and what his true wish is. The characterisation of Shirou is no more complete without HF than the understanding of the Grail War as a whole is.

[Haak]

Personally I'm inclined to believe that Heaven's Feel is the "true" story, but opinions matter and ultimately it really is just down to personal interpretation. At first I believed that Heaven's Feel was the true story but after Realta Nua's Last Episode, I can't really tell anymore (though it did relieve a lot of beef I had with Heavens Feel and made me understand it a bit more) so now I consider the opinion that all routes are equal to be a valid one.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Haak

At first I believed that Heaven's Feel was the true story but after Realta Nua's Last Episode, I can't really tell anymore (though it did relieve a lot of beef I had with Heavens Feel and made me understand it a bit more) so now I consider the opinion that all routes are equal to be a valid one.

Eh, what?

How did Last Episode "relieve a lot of beef you had with Heaven's Feel"? Last Episode has nothing to do with HF....

[Haak]

Frankly I didn't like Fate and UBW mostly because of the structure of the story telling. For me it seemed as if most of the effort went in Heaven's Feel. But considering Last Episode turned out to be so brilliant I decided that Nasu couldn't possibly put this much greatness into something he didn't actually believe in.

Plus just because I believed Heaven's Feel to be the true story doesn't mean I didn't raeg at it's message. In fact, it made the raeg even stronger. I felt like Nasu was mocking me. So watching Last Episode and realising all the routes were equal made Heaven's Feel easier to understand. Heaven's Feel was confusing for me because i felt like Nasu was clearly trying to portray Shirou as grey and yet the bad endings, the Taiga dojo's (particularly the last one) and the way Sakura was saved just felt so contrived, it seemed like the plot was bending to Shirou's new beliefs as if Nasu was trying to advocate that it's the ultimate truth. But I was wrong. Heaven's Feel is simply for those that think along those lines. That's all. It's not advocating it or anything. It's three routes for three different perspectives. It's message is therefore easier to take. I wouldn't hate a story just because it advocates a different perspective. In fact, Grey & Black morality ftw. I'd hate it because it advocates it and shoves it into my face.

[RadiantBeam]

I'll admit, I was... somewhat disappointed with HF, when all was said and done. I mean, I won't lie, it's the one route that probably inspired the most emotion in me while playing through it (Gaaah, Ilya, Saber...), but after playing through it I was just.... somewhat unimpressed by it, really. I spent so much time reading about it and how it would was considered the love it or hate it route of the whole game, and how Sakura was a base breaking character, and then I played through it and ultimately I didn't love it or hate it. I just thought it was an interesting story, nothing more. Somehow I expected it to be worse than it turned out to be.

[DragoZERO]

You shouldn't have come on the forums or anything. I avoid all wiki pages, forums, fan sites, etc. before I watch, read, or play something.

And HF definitely inspired the most emotion from me. I raged for weeks, seriously I did.

[RadiantBeam]

I didn't actually read about HF on the forums when I joined; I researched the game after the anime caught my interest and checked out some pages on TVTropes. I admit it probably spoiled the game for me, but eh, I was curious.

[DragoZERO]

That is a site I stay away from. Not just because of the spoilers, but because I lose hours of my life in a matter of seconds, lol.

And your old avatar was better, much better.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

And your old avatar was better, much better.

You appreciated the Rin focus?

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yes, and it also "ties up" Shirou's character development....

Yes, but tying something up doesn't make it the only existing material of importance regarding it. Shirou also receives a considerable amount of significant development in UBW, so you can hardly say HF is what the "entire" game is about, as if it completely overrides the two, which it doesn't.

[Altima of the Gates]

Well, if we're being all honest here, I raged at all the routes, and the negative interpretations of Sakura from way back. Even now, the only things I think people see in her is tits, booty, evil, and jealous yandere. Rather than being a base breaker I say that people don't look deeply enough and run off the base emotions they felt at her "revelations". . There is a rampant mijudgement in her characterization in fanfics.

But while we are on which routes we don't like, I don't really favor Fate or UBW, because Sakura is left to suffer in both. And there is no proof at all she would be saved, even Ilya who has an arguably worse Fate seems to hint she has a way to live after Fate(see hot spring omake) . And new info Shinji's changed self after UBW seems to be anything but down the line. So honestly, when I see the vieled hatred for HF and Sakura, it sours possible good discussion. And this is particularly disconcerting, that people empathize with Shinji more than Sakura , and it has become of a common sight.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

But while we are on which routes we don't like, I don't really favor Fate or UBW, because Sakura is left to suffer in both.

Sakura is a non-factor in both too. A character who was almost entirely absent and irrelevant in it possibly suffering after the ending is a lame reason to dislike a route tbqh.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Sakura is a non-factor in both too.

No, she's not. She's a very important person to Shirou and to Rin, and she has a huge amount of influence behind-the-scenes.

A character who was almost entirely absent and irrelevant in it possibly suffering after the ending is a lame reason to dislike a route tbqh.

Bollocks. Especially not when the character in question is Rin's sister, and her situation is not even mentioned. Rin (potentially) fucks off to London with the only guy Sakura carn ever be happy around, without even bothering to check why she can never be happy, and yet it's played as a fully happy ending, with no indication whatsoever that there's anything wrong. Sakura has been tortured for eleven years, and yet in two of the three routes Zouken Karma Houdini's his way out of it (as does Shinji, in one) whilst she's left to be tortured to death (potentially) so that her moronic big sister can live in blissful ignorance. I don't see how that is in any way a "happy ending", especially not if they ever discover the truth.

Why does the fact that Sakura isn't directly involved in the war in the first two routes mean that it's not reasonable for her fans to dislike those routes because she's not saved in them? Surely, the fact that she's not involved gives us even more reason not to like that route. Plus, the endings are just really grating after playing through HF, especially UBW True. Everything is played as if it's a happy ending, including for Sakura, and yet in the background she's being constantly tortured and the guy she loves is fucking off to London with her big sister, of all people. It's just really irritating, and what makes it even more irritating is idiots like you who claim that we're somehow being unreasonable for wanting our favourite character to not get thoroughly fucked over in all but one ending (and by her own big sister, at that...).

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Sakura is a non-factor in both too. A character who was almost entirely absent and irrelevant in it possibly suffering after the ending is a lame reason to dislike a route tbqh.

Sorry if I wasn't clear with that, I meant, based on the fact for every HF discussion, I'd get a well I don't like HF because Saber is killed" (which is understanable, but the rather vitrous commentary based on Saber's (and certain other matters) role is so venomous, you can't have good HF discussion because of those topics, as the convo devolves into flame.is So if I was thinking with that mindset, my point is about as valid as anyone elses, but it is silly. Which is the point. Look at any HF discussion, it is shameful how some behave when discussing that topic. I mean if people are gonna be mad about certain events forever, wouldn't I have a right to be mad that a heroine was not well off at all in other endings and the follow up info also showed things were even worse? I think so.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

No, she's not. She's a very important person to Shirou

So is Fujimura. Still mostly irrelevant to the Fate/UBW narrative.

and she has a huge amount of influence behind-the-scenes.

Zouken doesn't get involved in the war in Fate or UBW and Rider dies early on as Shinji's Servant in both. Nope, not seeing this WHOAMG HUGE influence from her.

Bollocks. Especially not when the character in question is Rin's sister, and her situation is not even mentioned. Rin (potentially) fucks off to London with the only guy Sakura carn ever be happy around, without even bothering to check why she can never be happy, and yet it's played as a fully happy ending, with no indication whatsoever that there's anything wrong. Sakura has been tortured for eleven years, and yet in two of the three routes Zouken Karma Houdini's his way out of it (as does Shinji, in one) whilst she's left to be tortured to death (potentially) so that her moronic big sister can live in blissful ignorance. I don't see how that is in any way a "happy ending", especially not if they ever discover the truth.

Why does the fact that Sakura isn't directly involved in the war in the first two routes mean that it's not reasonable for her fans to dislike those routes because she's not saved in them? Surely, the fact that she's not involved gives us even more reason not to like that route. Plus, the endings are just really grating after playing through HF, especially UBW True. Everything is played as if it's a happy ending, including for Sakura, and yet in the background she's being constantly tortured and the guy she loves is fucking off to London with her big sister, of all people. It's just really irritating, and what makes it even more irritating is idiots like you who claim that we're somehow being unreasonable for wanting our favourite character to not get thoroughly fucked over in all but one ending (and by her own big sister, at that...).

Seriously, haha oh wow. Talk about overreacting. Looks like I hit a nerve there.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Sorry if I wasn't clear with that, I meant, based on the fact for every HF discussion, I'd get a well I don't like HF because Saber is killed" (which is understanable, but the rather vitrous commentary based on Saber's (and certain other matters) role is so venomous, you can't have good HF discussion because of those topics, as the convo devolves into flame.is So if I was thinking with that mindset, my point is about as valid as anyone elses, but it is silly. Which is the point. Look at any HF discussion, it is shameful how some behave when discussing that topic. I mean if people are gonna be mad about certain events forever, wouldn't I have a right to be mad that a heroine was not well off at all in other endings and the follow up info also showed things were even worse? I think so.

So, basically, since Saber fans dislike HF because she gets screwed over in it, you, as a Sakura fan, feel that justifies you disliking Fate/UBW because Sakura gets screwed over in them instead? I see, I see.

Well I understand the why but I still think it's a lame mindset, no offense. Being obsessed over one character to the point of letting his/her fate alone determine your enjoyment of a route is not a good way to go about reading VNs if you ask me. Archer is my favorite character in FSN and you could say he gets the short end of the stick in Fate, but that doesn't instantly negate or undo everything else that's good in its overall story, because *gasp* there are other characters. Ones more important in the route in question.

FSN has a huge cast so obviously not everyone is gonna get their time to shine and their happy endings in all three routes. So instead of being entirely stuck and dependent on one character I think it's better to try and enjoy the whole cast and be entertained by the characters that do get screentime (and possibly a happy ending since that seems to be so important to the fanbase) in each route.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

So is Fujimura. Still mostly irrelevant to the Fate/UBW narrative.

Yes, but Taiga isn't being slowly tortured to death by her adoptive grandfather....

Zouken doesn't get involved in the war in Fate or UBW and Rider dies early on as Shinji's Servant in both. Nope, not seeing this WHOAMG HUGE influence from her.

She gave Rider to Shinji (leading to the setting up of the bloodfort) but, more importantly, a huge amount of Rin's personality is shaped by her interactions (or the lack thereof) with Sakura, and a large proportion of her actions (in particular, saving Shirou in the beginning) are influenced by them.

Seriously, haha oh wow. Talk about overreacting. Looks like I hit a nerve there.

Yes, you did. Because I'm fucking sick of Rin and Saber fans saying "oh, Sakura isn't important in the other two routes, so it's OK to entirely ignore her in fanfics or for Rin to fuck off to London without even giving her a second thought". Just because she's not directly involved in the war, that doesn't mean she's not important.

So, basically, since Saber fans dislike HF because she gets screwed over in it, you, as a Sakura fan, feel that justifies you disliking Fate/UBW because Sakura gets screwed over in them instead? I see, I see.

No, disliking Fate and UBW (or, rather, the ending) because Sakura gets screwed over in them has fuck all to do with Saber fans disliking HF. Sakura has had a horrible life, and has never been given even a chance to live, and Shirou and Rin both (possibly) fuck off and leave her to die without a second thought. Not only that, but Shirou is supposed to be a fucking hero. Some fucking hero he is, if he can't even protect the girl who has spent the last year cooking for him, cleaning for him etc. and who he cares deeply about because he's too fucking stupid to notice. Not to mention Rin, who has her head so far up her ass when it comes to Sakura that it's poking out of her neck....

Well I understand the why but I still think it's a lame mindset, no offense. Being obsessed over one character to the point of letting his/her fate alone determine your enjoyment of a route is not a good way to go about reading VNs if you ask me. Archer is my favorite character in FSN and you could say he gets the short end of the stick in Fate, but that doesn't instantly negate or undo everything else that's good in its overall story, because *gasp* there are other characters. Ones more important in the route in question.

But it's just plain unfair. Sakura gets totally fucked over because her moron sister is too wedded to some fucking stupid rule laid down by her long-dead father to check up on her properly, and despite knowing that she's never happy except around Shirou.

Plus, Sakura deserves better than that, and I'm sick of assholes like you claiming that she's "not important". She's a fucking heroine so, yes, she is an important character.

FSN has a huge cast so obviously not everyone is gonna get their time to shine and their happy endings in all three routes. So instead of being entirely stuck and dependent on one character I think it's better to try and enjoy the whole cast and be entertained by the characters that do get screentime (and possibly a happy ending since that seems to be so important to the fanbase) in each route.

Rin gets a happy ending in every single damn route. Saber gets a happy ending in Fate and UBW (and she's a servant, so she's already lived one life). Sakura, on the other hand, gets one, and further her in Fate and UBW is left totally hanging in the air, and the whole thing is played as a happy ending (including for her) when it most definitely is not. It's just grating, and I don't give a shit if you think it's a "lame mindset". Personally, I think it's pretty "lame" to just dismiss one of the main characters outright.