Code Geass Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[FlareKnight]

Well looking at the first episode I'm assuming it's after Japan has lost/surrendered whatever. I wouldn't say Suzaku's expression is 'omg, what have I done'. It's more of a depressed face that would match looking at the worn torn remains of your country.

I could imagine Suzaku's confronting his father could have been mixed with worrying about the loss of Japanese lives and along with those lives Lelouch and Nunally. If the war was fought to the bitter end they probably would be caught in the battles at some point.

[Twisted Reality]

I voted for "poor." I think the episode just outright sucked. Yeah, I know I'm the only guy who did.

The redeeming parts of the episode are that Lelouch and Suzaku get a character comparison and Suzaku's past is opened up. But otherwise, I hated it.

Did we really need to have Mao brought back from the dead? I'm sorry, but he's dead to me now that he has served his purpose with Shirley, Lelouch and CC. He was also excellent in emphasizing the gravity of Lelouch's powers and responsibilities and CC's character. After that, bringing him back seemed pointless. And after all was said and done, does he really have anything more to contribute to the show? He's just an incredibly annoying jackass without either Lelouch or CC to play off of him.

One of the fun parts of watching this show is to watch Lelouch kick proverbial ass. But seeing him do it for a second time to Mao, in a highly improbable scenario, is a buzz killer. There was really no point to the conflict in this episode other than to just have a conflict that serves as filler. It doesn't really bring up any interesting points about Lelouch and Suzaku's screentime was just a laughable way of introducing the topic of his father. ("You mean they brought back Mao to talk about Suzaku's daddy issues?!")

By improbable scenario: I mean the fact that we have to take a lot of things at face value (more than usual) to make it work. First off, Mao is somehow able to secure a large number of resources and manpower to transport a bomb onto a secure campus and then somehow thread it through the maintenance ducts and string it up off a high ceiling. Perhaps not impossible, but still it smacks of irredeemable cheesiness and has little worthy payoff.

And of course, we have to also assume that Lelouch was careless enough to not go to lengths to make sure that Mao is really dead. Really, I'm not used to seeing such a meticulous planner forget to put in the final nail into the coffin of somebody who presents the biggest threat to him. I mean, Lelouch wasn't just passive about Mao, but was actually disarmed and afraid of him. It's hard to believe he'd just dismiss him for dead because he saw him get shot. (Man, Brittanian medical science is really amazing!)

Suzaku can dodge bullets and knock a machine gun turret that's firmly mounted on the ceiling? What?! He jumps and cuts a wire without any leverage behind his knife? What?! "Hmm...judging by the appearance of the boxy shape and red color of this bomb's casing, I'd say it has a 500-meter blast radius." What?! Are you kidding me?!

Okay, these aren't exactly delicate plot points. But really, being a character I already despise, it doesn't help that Suzaku is being made to seem badass by being thrown several large and improbable bones that he solves with equally magical athletic abilities. It's hard to respect him when the show's producers will only bother to showcase his abilities as a diversion to the main story. Sure maybe he really deserved more development as a character, but this seems like a half-assed way of doing it. Lelouch is not entirely innocent of this either (i.e. magical sinkhole in episode 2), but this is still too much to swallow for one episode. Really this just reinforces my opinion that Suzaku is a tool.

[Salahuddin]

One thing I don't get is... Why didn't Lulu use his Geass to have Mao shoot himself? Wouldn't that have solved his problems much more efficiently?

[5_of_Spades]

Ditto to Twisted Reality, but wouldn't go as far as to hate it.

One thing I don't get, why can't Lulu just press down on his side of the balance to 'win'? I know he is geassed and all, but... (Then again maybe he is thinking that Mao is tricking him with the balance, and both sides would set off the bomb, but...)

Also another thing. Why did Cornelia seemingly blame Japan for Lulu and Nunnally's 'deaths', when it was her old man who sent the siblings there???

(The Suzaku machine gun kick reminded me so much of TRC that it is not funny.)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Salahuddin

One thing I don't get is... Why didn't Lulu use his Geass to have Mao shoot himself? Wouldn't that have solved his problems much more efficiently?

Ahh... I see. You have missed one vital detail of Lelouch's methodology.

Lelouch does not want the fact that he has a superpower to come out into the open. His Geass might be powerful, but it is not invulnerable and indeed is full of flaws. The only sure way he could prevent people from finding out about his Geass, is to:
1. Use Geass when there are no live witnesses. (Being alone with the Geassed. Note that he broke the rule with Vietta or Kallen, but that's because he didn't yet know about the one-geass-per-person problem.)

2. Use Geass in a way that even if there are witnesses, they could explain the result some other way. (Mr Orange being a supposed traitor and raving lunatic.)

3. Use the Geass to kill rival Japanese resistance groups in the form of suicide. (Using the classic stereotype "Everyone knows the Japanese just LOVE to commit suicide" as a cover. This obviously isn't true, but it is true enough for Britannians to believe.)

As for Mao, there was no way Lelouch could kill him via Geass that actually made sense. Suzaku knows how physically weak Lulu is, so any lie that Lelouch overpowers Mao would not be believable. And Mao was not Japanese so "he killed himself because I beat him at chess" won't do.
It gets even dicier when Suzaku is in the room, because then Suzaku would hear what Lulu say to Mao. Thus if Mao blow his own brains out after hearing "Why don't you just die!" from Lelouch, there would be a lot of questions.

People can't find weaknesses in your superpower if they don't know you HAVE a superpower. This is where Light in DeathNote made his mistake; he showed his hand too much out of arrogance.

EDIT: Just to emphasise, most characters in-show considers Zero a powerfully wealthy and influential person, rather than some guy with mind-control powers. Sure, there are a few individuals who suspect something, but as long as their numbers don't grow that idea wouldn't be treated seriously.

[Anh_Minh]

VCV: I think he meant after Suzaku started to freak out. Before that, well, sunglasses. And Mao might have detonated the bomb the moment Lelouch thought seriously about it anyway.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

VCV: I think he meant after Suzaku started to freak out. Before that, well, sunglasses. And Mao might have detonated the bomb the moment Lelouch thought seriously about it anyway.

Regardless, Lulu would still have a hard time explaining to Suzaku why Mao killed himself. His sister is already safe by then; Lulu now has to put the security of his mission next in priority.

[Twisted Reality]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Ahh... I see. You have missed one vital detail of Lelouch's methodology.

Lelouch does not want the fact that he has a superpower to come out into the open. His Geass might be powerful, but it is not invulnerable and indeed is full of flaws. The only sure way he could prevent people from finding out about his Geass, is to:
1. Use Geass when there are no live witnesses. (Being alone with the Geassed. Note that he broke the rule with Vietta or Kallen, but that's because he didn't yet know about the one-geass-per-person problem.)

2. Use Geass in a way that even if there are witnesses, they could explain the result some other way. (Mr Orange being a supposed traitor and raving lunatic.)

3. Use the Geass to kill rival Japanese resistance groups in the form of suicide. (Using the classic stereotype "Everyone knows the Japanese just LOVE to commit suicide" as a cover. This obviously isn't true, but it is true enough for Britannians to believe.)

As for Mao, there was no way Lelouch could kill him via Geass that actually made sense. Suzaku knows how physically weak Lulu is, so any lie that Lelouch overpowers Mao would not be believable. And Mao was not Japanese so "he killed himself because I beat him at chess" won't do.
It gets even dicier when Suzaku is in the room, because then Suzaku would hear what Lulu say to Mao. Thus if Mao blow his own brains out after hearing "Why don't you just die!" from Lelouch, there would be a lot of questions.

People can't find weaknesses in your superpower if they don't know you HAVE a superpower. This is where Light in DeathNote made his mistake; he showed his hand too much out of arrogance.

EDIT: Just to emphasise, most characters in-show considers Zero a powerfully wealthy and influential person, rather than some guy with mind-control powers. Sure, there are a few individuals who suspect something, but as long as their numbers don't grow that idea wouldn't be treated seriously.

Couldn't he have done something more practical like..."Shut up and cower in place!" He could have then just played it off as Mao as being a cowardly and depraved lunatic.

And Zero is really more like a Harry Houdini. He walks into traps or situations involving a lot of deadly weapons aimed at him and walks out unscratched and unmolested (as far as anybody knows). He conjures up resources out of nowhere like pulling bunnies out of hats or he mesmerizes powerful political figures (i.e. Cornelia, Mr. Orange). He even does this to his own "knights" when he pulled off the landslide. (You're all trapped in a box that's rapidly filling with water...well...I have a magic trick up my sleeve. Care to see it?) Zero is just so insane and blown out of proportion that he seems nothing short of legendary. I don't think it would surprise anybody when they learn that Zero has somehow gotten the Chinese Federation on his side. If the numbers of his Black Knights do increase, people will only see Zero once more as an all-pervasive presence, like a pernicious cancer or a magical genie.

[Ephyon]

Originally Posted by Twisted Reality

And Zero is really more like a Harry Houdini. He walks into traps or situations involving a lot of deadly weapons aimed at him and walks out unscratched and unmolested (as far as anybody knows). He conjures up resources out of nowhere like pulling bunnies out of hats or he mesmerizes powerful political figures (i.e. Cornelia, Mr. Orange). He even does this to his own "knights" when he pulled off the landslide. (You're all trapped in a box that's rapidly filling with water...well...I have a magic trick up my sleeve. Care to see it?) Zero is just so insane and blown out of proportion that he seems nothing short of legendary. I don't think it would surprise anybody when they learn that Zero has somehow gotten the Chinese Federation on his side. If the numbers of his Black Knights do increase, people will only see Zero once more as an all-pervasive presence, like a pernicious cancer or a magical genie.

I don’t see that at all. The thing that attracted me to Lelouch, and to the show in general, in the first place was that for once, the main character did not win his battles through insane fighting skills, willpower and hotblood or pulled-out-of-my-ass plot devices, he won because he was smart. Even the supernatural power of the Geass is made significant only by his wit at the time of using it. His plans usually employ unexpected elements, but those elements are always something conceivable. With the exception on the latest reliance on Suzaku’s Matrix powers, the plans and escapes he himself orchestrated were never unrealistic or random, they were either a result of his own micromanaging planning or someone else (C.C.) giving him a hand.

What he does to Cornelia during the hotel-jacking and to his men during the Narita battle is not something “pulled out of a hat”, it’s called psychological warfare. Knowing how someone operates and exploiting weaknesses in character is a very real method of manipulation He’s not “insane or blown out of proportion”, he’s just very very smart. In fact, it’s been clearly shown that he is neither strong, physically skilled or a particularly good pilot, he’s pretty darn weak and only makes up for it by exploiting every resource at hand.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Regardless, Lulu would still have a hard time explaining to Suzaku why Mao killed himself. His sister is already safe by then; Lulu now has to put the security of his mission next in priority.

Quite. Anyway, Lelouch didn't want Mao dead, but captured for interrogation.

[Twisted Reality]

Originally Posted by Ephyon

I don’t see that at all. The thing that attracted me to Lelouch, and to the show in general, in the first place was that for once, the main character did not win his battles through insane fighting skills, willpower and hotblood or pulled-out-of-my-ass plot devices, he won because he was smart. Even the supernatural power of the Geass is made significant only by his wit at the time of using it. His plans usually employ unexpected elements, but those elements are always something conceivable. With the exception on the latest reliance on Suzaku’s Matrix powers, the plans and escapes he himself orchestrated were never unrealistic or random, they were either a result of his own micromanaging planning or someone else (C.C.) giving him a hand.

What he does to Cornelia during the hotel-jacking and to his men during the Narita battle is not something “pulled out of a hat”, it’s called psychological warfare. Knowing how someone operates and exploiting weaknesses in character is a very real method of manipulation He’s not “insane or blown out of proportion”, he’s just very very smart. In fact, it’s been clearly shown that he is neither strong, physically skilled or a particularly good pilot, he’s pretty darn weak and only makes up for it by exploiting every resource at hand.

Umm...I'm talking about how the public *perceives* Zero. He's a man of mystery to the audience within the show, even though us viewers know that the mystery is explainable by his powers. Lelouch has *invented* zero, and he plays to the crowd with remarkable showmanship. Cornelia wasn't mesmerized, but it seems like it. Zero can produce knowledge or brilliant tricks to cow his enemies, and that's all the public can see. For example, in the hotel-jacking, guards taking Euphemia to their leaders only see that Zero has somehow convinced them all to kill themselves...and Zero himself utterly untouchable.

Above all, Zero doesn't use magic (well he actually does if you consider Geass), but it's like the way a stage magician displays his trick. It's baffling, it *has* to be a trick, but it's hard to tell because the illusion is so complete. Cornelia only half-heartedly gave chase to C.C. within the Zero costume because Cornelia so thoroughly believes that he would not show himself unless he could absolutely escape. He's so arrogant that he shows up in person to a warzone! He somehow pulls out trainloads of Knightmares and gives them to his followers. He has a mobile fortress both well-furnished and luxurious. His plans are audacious and clever. As far as anybody is concerned, he is unreal and unbelievable.

Of course, underneath all that is Lelouch with his Geass and his clever mind.

[etothex]

he could have ordered mao to go jump off a tall building, or a cliff; he might need to be more specific to ensure death, but really shut up was his lamest command ever. Mao would then run off and seek a tall building to throw himself off, any witnesses would just think he took off.

Twisted, I too thought poorly of the episode. It seemed especially pointless after a great episode 15, but I gave it a slightly higher score for CC's wardrobe expansion, finally seeing Kallen again, and LL's using his cunning to defeat Mao sans lame geass command and lulu punch.

[Jewelray]

The first half of the episode was pretty silly. Reviving Mao ("isn't Britianian technology great" -_-) , yet another mind game to challenge Lelouch, Suzaku going seed mode... It was all so over the top that I could help but think "Are you serious? Why?" But the ending was pretty exciting, and now we know the reason for Suzaku being the ultimate hypocrite.

As for Lulu geassing himself, I don't like comparing Code Geass to Death Note, but sorry Lulu, Light did it first. But it was nice to see Lulu really afraid and show what he is really feeling.

But I think there could have been a way to Lulu to win the chess match... Welcome to Lelouch's Mind's Eye Hentai Theater, staring C.C....

[FlareKnight]

I think with Lelouch geassing Mao wasn't a really big plan on his part. He was watching his best friend's mind being torn to bits by Mao and didn't want a repeat of Shirleys. Not sure if his 'shut up' command was just his anger and that triggered the geass or whether he just wanted Mao to shut the hell up which would put an end to his danger. Considering Lelouch charged and took a swing at Mao means that he probably just really angry at the time.

It was an interesting episode with Lelouch really going to the brink when he thought Nunally had been killed. Just shows that if anything happened to her it would mean a lot of trouble for everyone

[Retsoor]

Piss-poor execution. The whole episode felt like an addon that should've been included somewhere else, somehow else. Preferably before episode fifteen's climax, since that would've spared us from the ingenious way Mao managed to survive. Shoot indeed.

I don't even want to begin to imagine how much sweet-talking Mao had to do to have someone install a 500 m radius pendulum bomb in a sewer below the suburb. C.C.'s convenient entrance dealt with Mao, when it might have been fitting at any other point, here it seemed ridiculous. Suzaku's revelation was done well enough, but they could've smoothed out the points where Mao begins his tirade. The beginning felt like a lesson conducted for the audience.

For an episode titled Captive Nanally it had a woeful amount of screentime for her, and even less of dialogue.

All in all this episode required way too much convenient things happening to succeed at all. It wasn't bad per se, but I expected so much more. It wasn't without its highlights though, among others any Nanally screentime is worth its weight in gold, the sisters' feelings and that Lelouch is dramatic even in his own misery.

[blitz1/2]

Can anyone explain why Lulu's geass actually worked on Mao this time and the other times failed?

[Skane]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Can anyone explain why Lulu's geass actually worked on Mao this time and the other times failed?

He never had a chance to have direct eye-contact with Mao before. The reason for Mao's visor.

Cheers.

[Niar]

In the preview for episode 17 is Lulu saying that he was trying to get information about the contract with CC from Mao.
Lulu never intend to kill him but he impulsive order him to shut up.

[Sinestra]

A little late with post but this episode was ok. The fact that Moa was still alive and the fact that Lulu did not even consider the option that he might have survived is a testament in my opinion to Lulu not following through sometimes. The result Lulu getting bit in the ass from it and Nanali getting mixed up in it. As Mao pointed out Lulu should have said Kill instead of shoot. OPPS

I will say Nanali showed courage when she kidnapped not even worrying about her own safety. She says "I wont forgive you if intend to make my brother sad" to me that showed courage. I guess with all that she went through in the past being kidnapped is no big deal. Over all an interesting episode Im still pretty interested in what roll Viletta will play even though at the moment she is playing housewife with Ougi.

WTF's in this epsiode

Lulu Geassed himself HOLY SHIT that was weird
Suzaku going Ninja Gadien ummmmm ok...

I did like seeing Suzakus crippled face when Mao mentioned how Suzaku killed his own father. Damn that was rough. next episode looks like its going to be damn good

[monstratboy]

With all the spoilers I was expecting Mao to die, but now thats he's gone I've been wishing C.C. might have reigned in and brought him to work by her side. It would have been cliche but interesting to have someone working with Lelouch who gets under his nerves but then turns into a playful child when C.C. is present. I can imagine them them fighting over C.C., Lelouche telling misleading truths making it seem he and C.C. have an adult relatinship while Mao makes childlike rebuttals that she only loves him and then runs off to be consoled like a baby by said person.

And I have to agree this was one of the worst episodes, WTF! was with that sad, SAD attack Lelouch made toward Mao. My God it just killed any image I had of him being physically capable of anything strenuous. Imaga brought to mind is what Momoko would actually be like if she wasn't a super-powered martial artist.