2013-05-16, 13:54 | Link #32321 | ||
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As for at which point it is we've reached the point in which Bern returns Ange to the party (chap 16). If Ep 8 is as long as the others (6 volumes) we should be halfway. Quote:
2) Yes, he said so on his forum in response to something if I'm not wrong. It seems Yasu though perceives himself/herself as a female as he believed to be female for most of his/her life. |
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2013-05-16, 15:57 | Link #32322 | |||
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When I described umineko to one of my friends, I told that it could be improved very much by hiring someone that can actually draw (and maybe let ryu do the character design, as some of the dresses are simply gorgeous) and hire someone that could actually write (most of the time the tempo and pacing of ryu's writing is terrible, even though I personally like the bit boring slice-of-life-stylish writing that many of the events have, I can easily see why that is considered terribly bad writing). So in other words, in order to next when they cry to achieve perfection, ryu should be doing much more work as a background supervisor or something. Quote:
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Is the manga any good? Closer to VN or anime? |
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2013-05-16, 16:26 | Link #32323 |
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It's not exactly a problem of writing. He can be a good writer sometimes and there are certain things he does do well, like suspense.
He needs to simply play to the areas where is a strong writer and get several very good editors. People not afraid to tell him that long tangents about tea need to be excised from the story if they don't add anything to it.
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2013-05-16, 17:13 | Link #32324 |
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Pretty much yeah. There are times when I genuinely enjoyed his writing. But things like mentioned pacing can make it pretty difficult to bear with sometimes.
But what I like in ryu and generally in most of the projects he has been included in, even if there are some problems, he is very good at writing stories. And by stories I mean like umineko, every 8 chapters included, and how it creates somewhat consistent story. Even if there are some inconsistencies (like yasu, if you decide to start analyzing things) most of the things fit together beautifully, and when progressing with the story and gaining information everything you have read previously makes gradually more sense. That's why I believe he would be much better at writing scripts and such, while someone else writes the actual text or at least someone keeps him in check. But VNs in general seem to have poor pacing, at least the ones I have been playing, even if that is a harsh generalization. Usually the plot and sometimes the characters keep the story interesting, but too many times games consist only out of poor dialog: I understand the dialog-heaviness is one trait of most VNs as they tend to focus on character interaction, but poorly executed makes hard to classify games as games or even any form of literature. When they crys at least have been written in a way that they seem more like a book than actual game, being officially "sound novels" and all. Maybe the difficulties and poor execution with some VNs is because the format offers change to convert stories into some form with fairly small job, as most of the tools are easy to use and create with, making it easy to share even though the maker would have nearly zero writing skills. |
2013-05-16, 19:15 | Link #32325 | |
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The Chiru ones are definitely good so far and even give extra hints. So far Ep 8, plot wise, is definitely better in the manga version than in the VN version as far as I'm involved. The plot had been changed slightly and it works much better this way. I've also liked quite a bit Ep 5 for how he represented certain things and some extra bits. Ep 7 is still ongoing but so far seems good (even if it's more or less as the VN plot wise). Ep 6 is pretty and close to the VN. Ep 3 & 4 are closer to the visual novel plot wise compared to the anime and with extra hints. I'm not particularly fond of Ep 3 drawing and in Ep 4 Ange has a bigger brother complex than in the VN. Ep 1 is the less good as far as I'm involved both in plot and draws. If you ask me it's the only manga chapter which is clearly less good than the anime. On Ep 2 there are contrasting opinions. |
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2013-05-17, 21:08 | Link #32326 |
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Whether he was was right or wrong, Ryu seems to have thought Ange was better not knowing the truth. I mean, she essentially committed suicide after learning what was in Eva's diary, and not in a "my quest is done" sort of way.
Also, since there are only two ways for Ange to go back to Rokkenjima (Battler to tell her or Eva's diary), I wonder if at least most of Ep 8 isn't Ange deciding whether or not to read Eva's diary. All of your past character development about not knowing the truth would fall apart if someone handed you the key to finally reaching it. If taken literally, you could read ep 8 as Tohya sending Ange the book (or deciding to) and hoping she doesn't read it. Also in an unrelated note, I recently began to wonder if the red truth Beatrice whispered to Eva-beatrice was in fact "Neither you or Eva is the culprit", or something like that. |
2013-05-17, 21:18 | Link #32327 |
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Also did anyone else see the episode of the Big Bang theory relating to Howard's letter from his father? It was so umineko themed. To summarise:
- Howard's father abandoned his family when Howard was a child - He sent a letter to Howard on his 18th birthday, Howard decided not to read it as his father didn't deserve understanding - YEARS later, one of his friend's accidentally finds and reads it - Howard, still sure he doesn't want to know what is in it, burns the letter - All of his friends soon learn what was in the letter by asking the one who read it - Howard is torn between wanting to know what it could have said, and sticking to his resolution that he never needed to know. Especially since his friends all know. He also worries about what it might actually have said. - His friends decide they can't tell him outright as he doesn't want to know, but can't keep him in the dark because it is weighing so heavily on him. So all six offer him a possible account of what had been in the letter, but do not let him know which is true. |
2013-05-17, 23:40 | Link #32328 | |||
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He would need an editor who is equally passionate about the project, but I sometimes almost think that maybe even Ryukishi should be a little more vocal about what he wants in his game and what not, he seems to waver easily. Quote:
Emotionality is not necessarily as highlighted as it was in 19th, early 20th century Western discourse, with women being deemed "hysterical" at every corner. When looking at how the construction of self-image for many Japanese people proceeds it's interesting to note that there is, to a certain degree, still a larger focus on the division of roles based on sex and less on the "performance". This is often found in the claim that Japanese men behave "womanly" compared to their Western counterparts. Eva's struggle as a person for example stems from the fact that she wants to take on the role that is traditionally assigned to a man, which is providing for the family and thus ensuring that the lineage is able to carry on. Natsuhi's struggle stems from her incapability to ensure the two things a woman is supposed to carry out, which is producing an heir (which might or might not have been her fault), raising a proper heir (not raising Jessica into what she is supposed to be) and caring for the household (which is why she is so angry at servants not doing their expected work). I wouldn't say though that this is played as a "these women should behave inside their social roles" but rather to highlight how much stress was put on people in these social circumstances. The same goes for his depiction of masculinity as well though, as he shows the constant stress that is put on the husbands and the escapism that both George and Battler move towards. Men are supposed to provide for the family and ensure it's stability, which is why he terms them as "traditionally more interested in legacy and lineage" because it is the only thing they pass on in terms of family. The raising of children is to be carried out by women and a man who does not provide is useless. It is this division of the spheres of life, the home- and the work-space, which creates the dilemma of Japanese gender identity. This was also why Kyrie was admitting that she was beaten by Asumu, because she existed in both spheres and thus could not provide Rudolph with escapism from his worries when he came home. She had to become cunning and sly in order to hide her ambitious persona from her own husband to chain him to herself. Quote:
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2013-05-18, 00:51 | Link #32329 | ||
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If these episodes are going to grow in size to such an extent, is a delay really unreasonable? I suppose they've still got their booth or whatever booked, but I'm sure they can figure out what to do about that. It's reaaaaaaally obvious from internal file extraction that ep8 was rushed out the door. Just guessing, but I would imagine that the writing got bogged down somewhere, some sort of "just get it finished" situation came up between him and his editors, and the scripting was dashed out as quickly as humanly possible (hence the lack of even assigning portrait expression names to the Young Ange and Tohya portraits). It's possible the ep8 manga contains bits and pieces that were actually mostly written and just not properly presentable for the VN. Maybe with more delays we would've gotten the "proper" ep8 from the start, and some of the problems we've discussed wouldn't exist because he could get his proper point across. Quote:
I stand by my statements though. People ain't that different. Especially since your interpretation of Eva seems entirely at odds with her actual objective at pretty much all times.
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2013-05-18, 01:18 | Link #32330 | ||
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I would also be torn between the aspect of quality and answering to the current demand, I think. Yes, the delay back in the time of Higurashi didn't completely shatter their fanbase, but they probably lost sales to a certain degree and (alluding back to the curry shop example that Ryukishi used) once you gain a certain level of fame it's hard not to meet the demands, because the backlash will be much bigger. I would have probably been able to wait half a year or maybe even a year longer for the last Episode had it been a more polished result than what we got. Not only the technical side you mentioned reveals this, also the fact that many scenes transition without much rhyme or reason, some things are pretty much discarded mid-sentence and certain events are alluded to but never fully explained. It's as if this Episode was merely a best-of of what could have been. Quote:
I also agree with you that Yasu's issues are a lot more personal than the society-based issues of the other family members, yet I'd say that it revealed to a large degree what kind of a world she was presented with and it poses the question of what an impact this would make on a person with identity problems in the first place. It also reveals that Yasu is not the only person with a conflicting identity in the story, all the characters are basically broken by being forced into what society appears to request of them. The dual identity is not only a problem for Yasu. I agree on the other hand that most of these conflicts are more alluded to than being a center focus, but it is questionable whether they have to be drawn to the front in order to be functional devices within the whole of they story. I would be interested though in what way Eva's objective is at odds with my interpretation. Her conflict is basically wanting to inherit the family, to beat her brother and become the one to carry on the family, which is traditionally not what is expected of a woman (of her circles). To counter this she pushes her dreams unto George and basically makes him what she wanted for herself. She forces herself into the role of woman and mother, but can't let go of her wish for being in power, which creates her controlling and often very vile personality. |
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2013-05-18, 22:12 | Link #32331 |
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While you cannot expect every person in the heterogeneous group that is "the Japanese" to conform to an idea, surely you must except that there were societal norms at the time? Like how even today medicine in Japan is much more focused on the good of the group than on autonomy (which is a huge part of medicine here).
E.g., over there it is considered acceptable for families to make decisions for sick patients against their wishes, while here we expect that any person who can should make their own decisions. And sometimes this also extends to a mindset of a sorts, like how many Japanese strongly believed that dying for the country (e.g. Kamikaze pilots) was more important than their own lives, while this was never a popular tactic in Western minds. |
2013-05-18, 23:17 | Link #32332 | |
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Now, convincing them to agree to something fake that you or someone else intends to exploit for real murder, even if the fakery itself is mean-spirited or potentially criminal? I could see that. But you'd have to absolutely not be aware of a huge number of explosives and an implicit threat to detonate them while your entire family is in the blast radius. That's just... unfathomably silly.
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2013-05-19, 12:51 | Link #32335 | |
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Yes, for you it might be insanity, but you have to try and think in the patterns of people involved, which in these cases are high profile business people of the Japanese 1980s...which I highly assume you were not. |
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2013-05-19, 13:10 | Link #32336 |
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Haguruma, could you please stop trying to use Japanese culture to try and justify this sort of thing? I actually am a Japanese citizen and this is complete horseshit. Harakiri has been going out of practice since after WW2, and even then it never justified forced-suicide of other people with you. That's just disgusting for you to insinuate otherwise.
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2013-05-19, 14:03 | Link #32337 |
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Well if anything Umineko itself seems to relate to some of these things.
Ange is from modern Japan. She cares about finding the truth, the culprit. Traditionally however Japan is seen as a society of shame rather then guilt (in simple terms that it's more important if others believe you did it or not or not then if you actually did it or not - something generally considered more immature even when applied to a society... but again this is a strong theme of Yasu). I'm saying this in the same way that the western world is still influenced by remnants of Judeo-Christian beliefs and culture. I'm not going to suggest Ryuukishi is telling us to embrace the values of the former, but I believe this is an important aspect of how he handled the concept of "truth" in Umineko. Young Beatrice broke a vase but Virgilia erased the "shame" and made it alright. ShannonXGeorge, Shannon doesn't feel guilt about it, but shame. At least that's what Beatrice torments her about in arc 2. Then you have Rudolf and Kyrie talking about reputation being a bad investment since it can all fade away in a single wrong move. Various aspects of the value of reputation is explored. Ronove even equals honour and love in arc 5. I don't think Ryuukishi intended for one to be pictured negatively and the other positively. I simply believe he wanted us to understand the world view of someone seeing things in a way that he probably knew was unusual for even modern japanese people to perceive thing. Looking at RGDs he certainly seems to care about cultural aspects of the past that is becoming lost in modern Japan. I know this thing has been mused over again and again, but the whole stuff about "without love it cannot be seen" probably refers to that perception of things. Even if to you this is insane and amoral, it's still within the bounds of what humans as a society or a group most certainly can and did do. Edit: I guess he does have fun pointing out that tho we claim to care about the truth, in reality we can't ever have anything more then our perception of it. Red doesn't exist for real - there is no red in the real world (but there's close enough...). Maybe he's getting that to someone like Yasu, it simply doesn't make sense to care about something you can't possibly have and thus built her entire world view around perception of truth. Oh hm I'm also not suggesting that what we're dealing with is a shame suicide taking along everyone else. More that Yasu's motivations primarily revolves around creating and preserving a perception of truth. It's like Natsuhi never felt any guilt about hiding Kinzo's death and the primary reason she was afraid to be found out was shame. It's simply a matter of understanding characters under the axis they reason with. If you don't like associating this view in any ways with Japan, just think of personality types. It's basically the difference between a perceiving type and a judging type. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2013-05-19 at 17:19. |
2013-05-19, 22:57 | Link #32338 | |
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Seppuku is a completely different topic that does not even apply here. I'm also not trying to say that suicide was ever a justifiably enforceable method of dealing with problems, but it still was and is a social reality that people do act this way. What I refuse to let stand here is Renall's claim that people act this way out of mere insanity, not social pressure, not historical evaluation of conduct in the face of tragedy, not cultural context but simply claiming "everybody who does this is insane", which is oversimplification. I am not implying that anybody who is Japanese would thus act in such a way, probably not even 1%, maybe not even 0,1% of Japanese citizens would consider this course of action as reasonable under normal circumstances. I am also not claiming that this is inherently Japanese. I'd say there have been similar considerations of "avoiding shame" in almost every society, as long as honor is seen as more important than mere survival from an socio-ideological standpoint. |
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2013-05-19, 23:42 | Link #32339 | ||
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2013-05-20, 01:39 | Link #32340 | |
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I'm actually pretty sure that Yasu is INFJ, but the INFJ/INFP border is pretty vague and she's almost certainly in one of those categories. But certain characteristics such as seeing her own heart as an unsolvable riddle while intuitively understanding the people around her make her seem extremely INFJ-ish to me. INFJ is kind of considered a perceiving type anway, weirdly enough. |
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