2010-07-01, 13:15 | Link #12341 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Other letters and messages from Beatrice are instead improvised, very different in style, often not confirmed to be sealed, sometimes even come without envelopes (Ep2 in the VIP room) and refer to current events. ...scary thought. The portrait was put up in April 1984... Could that be 1st of April?!
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2010-07-01, 13:32 | Link #12343 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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...but some of the jokes they do now look quite harsh.
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2010-07-01, 15:23 | Link #12345 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
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But gold only shows up on screen in three locations -- Krauss' store room, chapel, and the gold storage. The gold in the gold storage is real in red. Krauss' store room might not even really exist. I'd say the chance for the bars in the chapel to be fake is very, very low, considering that if any other fake bars were floating around, we'd probably see them somewhere. We do not really have evidence to say that the epitaph was actually solved just because of these bars though -- many interpretations in fact rely on someone knowing the solution beforehand, which is also plausible. I would even say that there is a chance that Rosa knows the solution beforehand -- why doesn't she use the gold, I can't say, but I imagine that there's a very high chance she would have to bump into Eva in the archive room if she didn't know the solution and was solving simultaneously with Eva in Ep3, and yet arrived almost simultaneously. Feels too much of a freaky coincidence. While we don't have that as evidence, interesting interpretations arise from supposing someone solves the epitaph in every episode, most notably, the possibility that the endgame event is triggered by opening the gold storage room, or the possibility that murders are committed to prevent anyone from solving the riddle next.
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2010-07-01, 15:30 | Link #12346 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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You don't need to have a person that solves the riddle each episode, there's one that did already or knew the solution already even before the start of any game. The easier and most simple explanation is that Beatrice brought the gold there to prove the gold's existence, and to prove that she knows where it is.
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2010-07-01, 15:34 | Link #12347 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Not necessarily. That just makes it highly likely that she knows where it is, but does not guarantee it. You can legally own a patch of land in the middle of Siberia, that doesn't require you to be able to get there, or even being able to find it without a GPS.
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2010-07-01, 15:43 | Link #12348 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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There is no kind of legal document that can attest Beatrice's right on the gold, that gold is not even "legal", any kind of written will would be just a scrap of paper in front of the law. The only way you can own that gold is by knowing where it is.
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2010-07-01, 16:05 | Link #12349 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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But while I was trying to look it up anyway, I found an interesting passage about Yamashita's gold, apparently paraphrased from a book: Quote:
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2010-07-01, 17:09 | Link #12350 | |
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So for example, someone has discovered the gold. This person (or group) seems to be 'Beatrice.' This person has no interest in the gold, but in EP2 did present it to gain authority over the siblings. Could this person have used the gold to enlist their aid in the Fake First Twilight? This would explain why Rosa was there but then had to pretend not to have been there. And then was horrified to see her siblings killed and mutilated. And then had to lie for the servants and yet was suspicious of them. As for the epitaph itself, it could have been solved or it could have been constructed by that person. Or that person (or group) could have helped Kinzo to construct it. So, and I am just as guilty of this as anyone else, if we start saying, "well, there's no evidence that the gold was even real" or "That scene was fake" ... then we'll be terminating our ability to think. Sure the speculation is not 100% proven true, but it may get us somewhere where we get back onto solid ground... |
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2010-07-01, 17:33 | Link #12351 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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If, instead, by "Enlist help in First Twilight" we mean "Help me, here, have a physical bar of gold", then the problem of gold transportation becomes slightly different, as you need to either get people to agree to share a bar later (troublesome) or haul as many bars as you need co-conspirators (less troublesome but exhausting) or simply tell everyone to come take as much as they can carry (that's a recipe for trouble right there). Neither of the three is impossible, but if any gold actually left the storage room, you'd think someone would trip over a bar somewhere. I very much suspect Rosa simply knew the solution to the epitaph already, since every time the gold came up in Ep1-4, she was one of the few people to touch it at all. But then it's not clear why she isn't using the gold to solve her own problems, or why exactly did she need to go check on it and bump into Eva in Ep3. Interestingly, it does not necessitate her to 'own' it, that is, be Beatrice -- she can be told the solution because she is trusted, or because it's her designated role to give out hints, which she explicitly does in Ep5.
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2010-07-01, 17:58 | Link #12352 |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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If Rosa knows the solution in advance, some possible reasons she hasn't made use of the gold yet are already outlined in your post, aren't they?
It's possible that her debt situation is getting desperate and she plans to take some of the gold at this conference when nobody's keeping tabs on her; it happens that she runs into Eva in EP3, but maybe she gets away with it otherwise. |
2010-07-01, 18:03 | Link #12353 | |
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The next interesting question is, does anyone know that Rosa knows? That is, did she solve it on her own (and then rejected the idea of claiming headship) get told the solution to complete a particular task which that requires (what kind?) or something else?
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2010-07-01, 18:04 | Link #12354 | ||||
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In fact, that was how Kinzo supposedly created his liquid assets, according to whoever was talking about him and the gold. Quote:
In essence, it could be, "If you help me, then I will take out a loan with the gold and give you cold hard cash." Besides, I had a feeling that that's what Battler was going to do in EP5, with the way the siblings were pushing him to be the figure head. Although, I'm of the opinion that the siblings in general do not know where the gold is. This is because... they try to figure it out and then Eva later discovers it. The servants however.... Quote:
As for Beatrice owning the gold; if the group collectively is Beatrice then could it be possible that the majority of the servants already know where the gold is? By the way, Oliver, while I have your attention. Do you have any ideas regarding the mirror, George, Shannon, Natsuhi, the man from 19 years ago and Moetrice? All these concepts seem linked. - George is interested in Natsuhi's mirror and her room - Shannon smashed the shrine mirror - Shannon is possibly implicated by know Natsuhi's favorite season by TMF19YA. - Beatrice claims to be weakened by the shrine mirror - Moetrice is hurt by Natsuhi's mirror while Beatrice of Legend is not - Moetrice is related to a woman's (Shannon?) love of Battler - Meta-Battler decided to make Moetrice attack Natsuhi - Natsuhi used to be a miko (Not enough fan-pics of Natsuhi in a miko fuku! ;__; ) There seems to be lots of clues here pointing to something... but what? |
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2010-07-01, 18:18 | Link #12355 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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"There are many legends and superstitions surrounding mirrors. Mirrors are said to be a reflection of the soul, and they were often used in traditional witchcraft as tools for scrying or performing other spells. It is also said that mirrors cannot lie. They can show only the truth, so it is a very bad omen indeed to see something in a mirror which should not be there. Also there is a legend that a newborn child should not see a mirror until its first birthday as its soul is still developing. If the child sees its reflection it is said that it will die." Quoted from Wikipedia Makes sense.. mirrors can only show the truth, which is why Beatrice is weakened by them. If i had to interpret the part when George is interested in Natsuhi's mirror, it could mean that George wants to find out the truth and for X reason he thinks he can find something in Natsuhi's room. |
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2010-07-01, 18:25 | Link #12356 |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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I'd like to point out the killer in ep2 seems to be trying hardest to make them solve the epitaph.
I mean, s/he draws everyone to the chapel (which is probably where at least part of the mechanism is) and shows everyone that the gold is real in the first twilight. On the other hand, s/he takes out the 6 people you'd think are most likely to solve it... hmm. |
2010-07-01, 18:27 | Link #12357 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Despite the fact that there's a knox rule that clearly specifies that a solution must not be reached without presented clues, I see little point in finding something by a mere random thought. It's the same difference between cracking a password with skills and with brute force. Even if you just happen to come across the truth by simply "scanning" every possibility not covered by the facts presented, it wouldn't be really anything satisfactory. I don't see a detective game as a lottery. In a lottery you can buy as many tickets as you want, and it doesn't matter how many losing tickets you get, you just need the right one to win. But this game is different, at least for me it is. If you put 1000 theories on the table, you only win 1/1000 of the prize if you happen to get the right one. The higher is the number of the theories you wager, the closer your prize will get to zero. It's way too convenient to claim many different things and then show that one among the thousands was right and say "see? I told you!" This is foolish! As foolish is to point out the few Nostradamus predictions that actually turned out to be right. I'd rather consider the "ratio" between wrong theories and right theories. That's what really matters to determine the worth of someone's reasoning. A true detective can't just point the finger to all the suspects and then say: "Hey I did point the finger to the culprit!" That's not how it works! A detective is allowed to elaborate many theories but he must then rule out every of them except one! That's why in the first place a detective must work on clues not on his own fantasies. It's just a waste of time. The point of the game is to reach a single truth, not listing all the possible "truths".
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2010-07-01, 18:37 | Link #12358 | |||||
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Kinzo still did not possess any legal documents certifying the legal source of the gold, which necessitated this, and anyone trying to convert gold into liquid cash by using it as collateral would also need to do something of the sort. Quote:
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So I'm pretty sure she has to be part of team Beatrice, and this is one of my arguments for Rosa being represented by Gaap. Quote:
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Moetrice is Jessica is TMF19YA. Mirror hurts her because it contains the truth of why does she have to be Moetrice. Which is because she thinks that Rudolf is her father and Battler is therefore her brother and loving him is out of the question. That love is pushed onto Shannon who later becomes Beatrice of Legend. The mirror, or Natsuhi's diaries, actually contain proof that Jessica is Natsuhi's daughter, which allows Jessica to love Battler but actually destroys Moetrice as it shows her true form. Breaking it for Shannon is concealing the truth from Jessica and telling her the untruth (that Battler is her brother) which allows her to interest George in herself by becoming part of team-Beatrice, that is, learning of the gold. Meta-Battler gets Moetrice to attack Natsuhi so that Moetrice can confront her for the truth. Or alternatively, it's completely the other way around, but yes, it's Shannon and Jessica alright. Gah, this turned out more messy than it is in my head, but who cares, I'm going to get laughed out of the thread now anyway.
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2010-07-01, 19:17 | Link #12359 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Solving a mystery for the honour of having been the one to say "I told you so" is just about the most pointless things I can imagine to be doing with a puzzle posed by a human to the entire world as entertainment. You evidently see it as a game that one can win. This is your prerogative, but you have to accept that not everybody does. Sure, offering a thousand guesses and then hitting with one cheapens your victory, if that victory of being the one to be correct is your goal. But please do not impose your goal on other people, they have their right to see it differently. Maybe this is personal for me, because I get to say "I told you so" on average once every month, in different contexts, and usually, I wish that I were wrong, but turn out correct anyway. But it is definitely not what interests me in Umineko, and I am generally not a mystery fan. I'm not a true detective, or, for that matter, a detective at all, in any sense of the word -- maybe you are, if so, more power to you. I'm a scientist and I just want to know the truth. I don't care at all how to find it, whatever works, as long as I can be sure it is.
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2010-07-01, 19:19 | Link #12360 | ||
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And in fact, it could have already been done before the conference started, so that there would be cash that was given to the survivors of the victims... Basically we don't need to have someone save up a whole bunch of cash or sell something because: 1. this is not how rich people raise capital 2. the clue for us was that Kinzo was shown to have done this once before Actually, the existence of the 'small golden land' would imply that it has been done, hasn't it? I mean, we can say, 'oh technically there's no evidence' again.. but this is a clue, right? But why call it a 'small golden land' and not 'some servant's savings' unless it was tied to the big Golden Land to begin with. So... the question is... who and why? Well, when I developed my faction war theory, the 'mistrust' or rather the 'betrayal' is a function of further sub/cross factions. So technically the Beatrice faction trusts all its "real" members and maybe not the suspected sub or cross factional people. If they are discovered. Quote:
By the way, these mirrors are supposed to be these bronze discs that you fill with water to see your reflection right? I mean, they're not like polished glass and metal or anything; the brittle western-style mirrors we all know. It's not that easy to try and smash bronze... 8) Like this? http://www.vam.ac.uk/images/image/47013-popup.html This is what I get for watching Shikaotoko awoniyoshi... where they dedicated an entire episode on talking about mirrors. 8) |
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