Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

France invaded Britainnia? When was this in the CG world?

History lessons. Also, that's why Britannia is based in America.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Suzaku has hope that he can change people without the need of actual rebellion which only leads to more supression.

And since he believes Britannia to be unbeatable, that is the only hope he has, hope in people (like the Britannians he knows) and hope that he can change the system with said people.

So if he hoped to change people without the "EVIL EVIL" rebellion, does that mean changing people by invading foreign nations is better?
That will create NEW oppressions.

And as for hope, Suzaku is fighting to take away hope from the people of Europe.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

... that IS a drastic change. With that reverting back, EVERYTHING changes.

Considering it was his repressed self, I don't consider it a drastic change. Maybe a superficial change, it's not as if he became someone he wasn't. But rather he became someone he was.

America was pretty racist back then. Guess what happened?

So america went around slaughtering ghettoes of african americans? When was this and how was this missed in my history lessons? And you mean to say there's no discrimination in America now? Really? Really really?

Suzaku has hope that he can change people without the need of actual rebellion which only leads to more supression.

Again, this doesn't answer my qns about how a person whose reasons for joining the army is because of a illogical rationalization and an indirect wish is to die and reason has hope, or how people can even draw the conclusion that he joined the army out of hope that he would change it from within when he joined it from his own non-hope-related desires.

There IS proof in the sound episodes and in the anime of his pragmatism. That alone is what makes it okay for him to become Emperor.

Nearly everything he's done, Lelouch would have done if he were in the same position. He nearly checkmated Lelouch's Black Knights using Euphemia's peace plan, something that he accepts as normal for an empire: acceptance of its conquered peoples.

Again, proof of pragmatism isn't a measure of good or evil in any way -_- It just prove he's all the more dangerous.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

So if he hoped to change people without the "EVIL EVIL" rebellion, but changing people by invading foreign nations is better?

Man...

He's not invading the Europeans because he wants to, it's because he HAS to. Get that down on paper. It's HIS JOB.

And even if it creates new Repressions, when Suzaku is able to change the system, he may be able to create a brighter future, albeit under Britannian rule.

And as for hope, Suzaku is fighting to take away hope from the people of Europe.

This Suzaku is a selfish "ore" Suzaku. He no longer cares, or at least, cares very little, about what others think as long as he achieves his goals. You can't fault him for that.

Think about all the families that lost their brothers and sisters due to Zero's rebellion. Can't fault Zero for the pain he caused to those families as well.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

History lessons. Also, that's why Britannia is based in America.

When we say history lessons, do we mean real life history lessons or in CG lessons?

[senarious]

Well, in the end of ep 1 he said "I am the one who will kıill Zero" he said zero not lelouch. I don't think he is really wants to kill lelouch he want to stop zero. It will be stupid if he can't understand lelouch a little but, yes Euffie's death is really dramatic for him and after trowing his father watch he seems to change so much. But I am on suzaku's side. In the ende he is White knight

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Man...

He's not invading the Europeans because he wants to, it's because he HAS to. Get that down on paper. It's HIS JOB.

And how is that different from how Japan was oppressed? Britannians oppress Numbers because it is their JOB too.

There is no excuse; Suzaku joined the army, and that means he knows he will have to kill innocent people overseas. He joined up anyway, which means this job of his was done out of his own free will. You can't dismiss mass killing of people defending their nationhood as a "job".

Indeed, if that's Suzaku's mentality, he will NEVER be able to change Britannia. Everyone in Britannia is doing their job, just like him. Thus if doing one's job can mean a lack of moral responsibility, then Britannia is perfectly fine and does not need to change at all.

Think about all the families that lost their brothers and sisters due to Zero's rebellion. Can't fault Zero for the pain he caused to those families as well.

Nice try, but Suzaku lost that moral highground when he joined the European Front.

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, Suzaku isn't going to win in the end. At least everything pretty much says so. And in this show, being "white" doesn't exactly make you the righteous one.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Considering it was his repressed self, I don't consider it a drastic change. Maybe a superficial change, it's not as if he became someone he wasn't. But rather he became someone he was.

It IS a drastic change from what he was. Stop playing with words. SUZAKU'S CHANGE IS DRASTIC.

PERIOD.

So america went around slaughtering ghettoes of african americans? When was this and how was this missed in my history lessons? And you mean to say there's no discrimination in America now? Really? Really really?

America killed Native Americans and did go about with lynching. And look at America now, it's NOT nearly as racist as it was long ago.

I never said there's no discrimination in America, I just said look at the past and the now, and discrimination isn't as plain blatant as it was back then. Hell, you could be sued for it and called a racist on national tv and get murdered socially for it.

Again, this doesn't answer my qns about how a person whose reasons for joining the army is because of a illogical rationalization and an indirect wish is to die and reason has hope, or how people can even draw the conclusion that he joined the army out of hope that he would change it from within when he joined it from his own non-hope-related desires.

Suzaku's hope is in the change in others. He said it himself in episode 19 that he lacks a true goal for living but keeps moving forward because he needs to live for his crime (of killing his dad) and atone for it. Suzaku hopes to change others, and he also joined the army to lessen actual death.

Proven by his Jesus style of combat.

Again, proof of pragmatism isn't a measure of good or evil in any way -_- It just prove he's all the more dangerous.

But that doesn't change the fact that Schneizel is pragmatic enough to make inclusion of Numbers into the Empire a reality.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Well, Suzaku isn't going to win in the end. At least everything pretty much says so. And in this show, being "white" doesn't exactly make you the righteous one.

That isn't the issue of our current arguments though; we are discussing Suzaku's intent.

I was pointing out that we have mounting evidence that Suzaku has no desire to help Japan or anyone else. Evidence "A" being the fighting in Europe.

Suzaku's hope is in the change in others. He said it himself in episode 19 that he lacks a true goal for living but keeps moving forward because he needs to live for his crime (of killing his dad) and atone for it. Suzaku hopes to change others, and he also joined the army to lessen actual death.

How was he lessening actual death by killing Europeans?

[Dann of Thursday]

I wasn't answering you Vallen, it was senarious. I should have quoted.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And how is that different from how Japan was oppressed? Britannians oppress Numbers because it is their JOB too.

Britannians oppress Numbers as a job?

Cecile did that? Lloyd did that? The Student Council did that? Euphemia and Nunnally did that?

Hell, even Schneizel never did that.

Suzaku knows people like them exist and that if they use each other, they could change the system.

There is no excuse; Suzaku joined the army, and that means he knows he will have to kill innocent people overseas. He joined up anyway, which means this job of his was done out of his own free will. You can't dismiss mass killing of people defending their nationhood as a "job".

I'm not even sure about that. There's still the story of the woman who took care of Suzaku BEFORE he actually joined the army and that dead woman may be the actual reason why he joined. And he joined the army to prevent deaths, even if he gets killed for it. Which is basically what happens in episode 1, save for the watch pocket.

But now, that doesn't matter for him. All he wants now is to sacrifice others to achieve his goal, just like Lelouch does it.

Indeed, if that's Suzaku's mentality, he will NEVER be able to change Britannia. Everyone in Britannia is doing their job, just like him. Thus if doing one's job can mean a lack of moral responsibility, then Britannia is perfectly fine and does not need to change at all.

Doing your job then amassing power to be able to create change is basic in this world. That's why promotions exist.

Nice try, but Suzaku lost that moral highground when he joined the European Front.

I never said Suzaku had a moral high ground now. I'm saying, stop hating on Suzaku for things Lelouch would have done to achieve his goals.

Remember, Lelouch sacrificed his entire army for his sister.

They are now the same people who sacrifice others to achieve their ends.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

How was he lessening actual death by killing Europeans?

OH GOD!!!

Stop posting. NOW.

Joining the army BACK THEN has no bearing to what Suzaku's goals are NOW.

Completely different.

This discussion just ended.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

I never said Suzaku had a moral high ground now. I'm saying, stop hating on Suzaku for things Lelouch would have done to achieve his goals.

Remember, Lelouch sacrificed his entire army for his sister.

They are now the same people who sacrifice others to achieve their ends.

Yet, we know what Lulu is trying to do, yet Suzaku's goal is unclear.

According to you, Suzaku is happy to sacrifice the ENTIRE Planet for his goal. That's a bit more than what Lulu is doing. And we still aren't sure if his goal involved more than "dying in battle", which had been the only thing he ever came up with on his own.

If any new Emperor made Britannia a better place, it would be a credit to the new Emperor and nothing to do with Suzaku. Suzaku is now helping the CURRENT Emperor, which means whatever new Emperor would have to fight Suzaku to get to the top.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Yet, we know what Lulu is trying to do, yet Suzaku's goal is unclear.

According to you, Suzaku is happy to sacrifice the ENTIRE Planet for his goal. That's a bit more than what Lulu is doing. And we still aren't sure if his goal involved more than "dying in battle", which had been the only thing he ever came up with on his own.

If any new Emperor made Britannia a better place, it would be a credit to the new Emperor and nothing to do with Suzaku. Suzaku is now helping the CURRENT Emperor, which means whatever new Emperor would have to fight Suzaku to get to the top.

No. Lelouch is the one who is happy to sacrifice the Entire World (the current world) for Nunnally, he said it himself. To him only Nunnally matters.

Suzaku is happy to sacrifice the freedom of people and the lives of a few in order to have a chance in changing Britannia from the inside by acquiring more and more power.

And Suzaku is already changing the system just by being Knight of Rounds. If he is able to curry the favor of the Emperor, new or present, he will have created change.

You can't say Suzaku did nothing by that point.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

No. Lelouch is the one who is happy to sacrifice the Entire World (the current world) for Nunnally, he said it himself. To him only Nunnally matters.

Suzaku is happy to sacrifice the freedom of people in order to have a chance in changing Britannia from the inside by acquiring more and more power.

And Suzaku is already changing the system just by being Knight of Rounds. If he is able to curry the favor of the Emperor, new or present, he will have created change.

You can't say Suzaku did nothing by that point.

Suzaku became the Knight of the Round by trading in Lulu like a bag of silver.

And curry the favor of the Emperor means doing exactly what he is told. Which in the case of the Emperor is to keep doing what the Empire is doing.
Suzaku would have a better chance if he was a Knight of one of the Emperor's children. At least then they will have an incentive to change the administration by taking power.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

It IS a drastic change from what he was. Stop playing with words. SUZAKU'S CHANGE IS DRASTIC.

PERIOD.

Wouldn't that depend on what you see as his real personality? You could see the superficial facade he shows to everyone as his real personality, the one where he fights for justice and doing things the right way. If you do, then yes, that is a drastic change. But for me, his real personality was the one he was repressing, the one he was trying to deny by being a nice guy, the one who kept rationalizing his past actions and coming up with his excuses, so for me that isn't a drastic change at all.

America killed Native Americans and did go about with lynching. And look at America now, it's NOT nearly as racist as it was long ago.

I never said there's no discrimination in America, I just said look at the past and the now, and discrimination isn't as plain blatant as it was back then. Hell, you could be sued for it and called a racist on national tv and get murdered socially for it.

I believe it still hasn't met your standards of total equality that may someday happen if Suzaku just keeps at doing his job, which is what I believe you were trying to invoke by bringing up the comparison? I don't know, but I just don't see it. Instead, what about a better example if the founding fathers of America had just decided to say 'dammit, we're not being represented but we'll stick with it and hopefully, there'll be no discrimination or violence anymore between us and Britain?'

Suzaku's hope is in the change in others. He said it himself in episode 19 that he lacks a true goal for living but keeps moving forward because he needs to live for his crime (of killing his dad) and atone for it. Suzaku hopes to change others, and he also joined the army to lessen actual death.

This was after he was mindraped by Mao, where it was stated that he secretly wished to die. So I find it intr how you can suddenly bring up an instance that comes ages after he joins the army and say that 'yes, this is the reason why he joined the army. It was because he had hope' when that wasn't even his reason in the first place. Maybe he did have hope after the incident with Mao, but it seems more to me that he's sorta stuck where he is and he can not atone for his dad's death in any other way except to prove that it was hopeless to defy the britainnians.

And Jesus style of combat? You mean, not killing non-combatants indiscriminately? One would think that would be rather normal behaviour indeed for a grunt. Besides just because he doesn't kill civilians doesnt mean that he doesn't have a deathwish himself.

But that doesn't change the fact that Schneizel is pragmatic enough to make inclusion of Numbers into the Empire a reality.

It also doesn't change the fact that Schneizel might not if there were other pragmatic reasons for him not to -_-

[Airi]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Yet, we know what Lulu is trying to do, yet Suzaku's goal is unclear.

According to you, Suzaku is happy to sacrifice the ENTIRE Planet for his goal. That's a bit more than what Lulu is doing.

No......Nobody is happy to sacrifice people... but they both will do anything to reach their goals.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Suzaku became the Knight of the Round by trading in Lulu like a bag of silver.

And curry the favor of the Emperor means doing exactly what he is told. Which in the case of the Emperor is to keep doing what the Empire is doing.
Suzaku would have a better chance if he was a Knight of one of the Emperor's children. At least then they will have an incentive to change the administration by taking power.

Well that's why he has to do his job. To curry favor. Seriously, even if you hate Suzaku, logically speaking, you should have already understood why Suzaku is doing what he's doing.

To effect change, he needs power. To obtain said power, he needs to gain Imperial backing.

He cannot back away anymore. This is the only path allowed to him. At the very least, this you should understand.

[Airi]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Well that's why he has to do his job. To curry favor. Seriously, even if you hate Suzaku, logically speaking, you should have already understood why Suzaku is doing what he's doing.

To effect change, he needs power. To obtain said power, he needs to gain Imperial backing.

He cannot back away anymore. This is the only path allowed to him. At the very least, this you should understand.

I agree with you Nanaya