Honey and Clover II

[mit7059]

We'll that pretty much counts Ayu out for Mayama. So the relationships now are Mayama x Rika, Ayu x Nomyia, and the unresolved triangle Takemoto x Hagu x Morita. I was a little disappointed because once again this was an entire episode without Takemoto. In fact if you don't count the first episode he has barely gotten anytime whatsoever, morita too, just a little time in the second episode because that was mostly focused on Ayu x Mayama x Rika. God I wish this were a 24 or 26 eps season, I just hope they bet back to Takemoto soon, even for a little bit.

[physics223]

I had cried again (okay, sniffled) this episode. It was simply so epiphanic, so moving, so uncontrolled and open - and Rika knows that Mayama spies on her. OMG. I think I won't be able to get much sleep. Again.

[mippa]

Originally Posted by Lilith

I pretty much agree with you, except the three after Hagu (Takemoto -> Morita -> Morita) and the last two (Shuu -> Morita). Argh, I don't know. The more I look at it, the more confused I get. >_<

One thing for sure, though. The second silhouette is the same one hovered by the clover because they have the same shirt:

Spoiler for comparison images:

That's what I think, anyway. XD;;

Spoiler for comment on images:

Am I the only one that thinks that is Takemoto? I mean, I don't remember Morita wearing hoodies all that often.

...but then again, maybe that is simply the movie's influence taking hold. @.@

[kauldron26]

words can't describe the greatness of episode 4.... i'll have more to say when i recover from the emotional avalanche... goddamn this season 2 is a fucking masterpiece...

[physics223]

Honey and Clover II - 04 Insights

I have some of my insights here (peppered with some quotidian occurrences and smatterings of other mundane stuff - that's still news in a way).

[Noodlehead]

That was a pretty good episode!

I think I enjoy the Mayama/Rika relationship moreso than the Nomiya/Ayu relationship. Nomiya's always been sort of "meh", to me.

I loved the recurring moon motif, as now it seems to make a lot more sense for appearing randomly in the first season in season during Mayama/Rika scenes. And I especially enjoyed Shuuji's flashback of when Harada was still alive. Seeing a drunk Rika was quite amusing. XD

When Mayama stopped Rika from escaping, I was sort of shocked and a little weirded out -- I mean, it almost looked as if he was going to rape her or something. As he tried to hold her back, he seemed a bit stalker-ish at first, but then when he began to cry, you could see that his feelings were truly sincere. And the way that the insert song fit in so perfectly... that was awesome.

But, I really want to see more of Takemoto or Morita. The lack of their presence has made me realize that I'm missing them a lot. At least we got a short Hagu appearance in this episode. The different tone of her voice has made me realize that either: her character has matured a lot, or her seiyuu is improving in her work. lol. It's probably both.

Anyone else find it strangely ironic that despite the fact Takemoto has been virtually non-existent for the majority of the series so far, he still continues to do the voiceovers for the episode previews?

~ Noodlehead

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by kauldron26

words can't describe the greatness of episode 4.... i'll have more to say when i recover from the emotional avalanche... g*****n this season 2 is a f*****g masterpiece...

I think this sums up how we all seem to feel. The profanity is wrong, but so expressive, lol.

And it really clicked when adamatari called Mayama a dork. That is exactly right. But Rika does seem to appreciate his dorkiness. This kind of full-court press is just what she needs. Mayama's kind of straight-ahead dorkiness is totally uncool but can also be so effective in accomplishing things.

I don't want to go too far afield, but I can't help mentioning that in these aspects Mayama is reminding me of a character in Anthony Powell's great mid-20th century novel series "A Dance to the Music of Time": an uncool, awkward boy called Widmerpool who becomes an uncool, awkward, overpowering, very successful man. But I think that Mayama's awkward but masculine style has made him pretty popular with girls all the way through. I'm beginning to understand why Ayu likes him and feels they suit each other. Mayama no baka!

[Soujiro10]

*clap*

wow, bravo! Episode 4 has single-handedly done what I previously thought would never happen: get me to actually accept and like the whole Rika x Mayama pairing. I had always thought during the first season (like many others) that Mayama was just an obsessive, stalker-ish guy in love who didnt even come remotely close to the level of Harada. However, this episode really made me step back and reevaluate Mayama's situation all over again. Thinking about it, if Rika was just some normal girl then yes, Mayama's invasion of privacy would be totally out of bounds and just plain creepy. However, because it IS Rika that we're talking about here, Mayama's actions seem less creepy and actually in a way needed. Rika's a woman standing on the edge of a cliff, and saving her requires so much more than the laid-back approach thats usually taken by a person whose trying to be "cool". She needs intervention, and thats where Mayama comes in. He is truly in love and willing to do what needs to be done, regardless of how it may look to others.

As a side note, this has also made me rethink about judging others hastily. It's actually made me realize that, unless you have been in the exact same situation as another person or you know every single detail of the whole story, you really have no right to judge a person's actions so easily.

Now for the long wait till next episode

[tritoch]

Still though.. STILL nothing can match the phone convo between AyuxNomiya from episode 3. Add insult to injury or in this case, add the cherry on top, Suga Shikao's insert song was so good that I watched episode 3 a total of 15 times now. =)

[Lilith]

Originally Posted by tritoch

Still though.. STILL nothing can match the phone convo between AyuxNomiya from episode 3. Add insult to injury or in this case, add the cherry on top, Suga Shikao's insert song was so good that I watched episode 3 a total of 15 times now. =)

I know, to each their own, but...

Oh how I disagree with you! I am absolutely convinced that nothing beats Mayama + Rika + Spitz moments.

In the first season, Mayama sitting near the fountain after missing Rika with Spitz' Y in the backgrounds just makes your heart melt.

Also in the first season, Mayama driving the car in high speed and Rika sitting next to him with Spitz' Yoru wa Kakeru makes your blood rush.

And now, Mayama holding Rika's arms tightly, speaking loudly and being confused that we didn't know if he's gonna loose his mind and rape her or storm out the room with Spitz' Honoho is just... gah!

I didn't like this couple much in the beginning, but these scenes make me feel how great love is. [/end of boring fangirling XD;;]

[Orchunter226]

Originally Posted by Lilith

Also in the first season, Mayama driving the car in high speed and Rika sitting next to him with Spitz' Yoru wa Kakeru makes your blood rush.

That's probably my favorite moment from season one. For some reason at that moment I felt really emotional. But this recent episode really revived my faith in the relationship. It also made me almost admire how hard Mayama is working to be with her, and how much love he truly has for her.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted by Noodlehead

Anyone else find it strangely ironic that despite the fact Takemoto has been virtually non-existent for the majority of the series so far, he still continues to do the voiceovers for the episode previews?

Haha, it is kinda silly, but in my opinion this shows that Takemoto is "main character" so...

Originally Posted by mippa

Am I the only one that thinks that is Takemoto? I mean, I don't remember Morita wearing hoodies all that often.

...but then again, maybe that is simply the movie's influence taking hold. @.@

Yeah, I'm starting to think like you, it IS Takemoto. >_< And maybe the one on right is Shuu, because they're the only two who'll end up alone (all are my speculations, ofcourse )!

[Lyannea]

Well the second episode was really good.
The third one was even better.
And the fourth one was just almost perfect.
I wonder if they can top that again haha~

[mit7059]

GAAAA Need more Honey & Clover! GAAAA *weeps openly* Why must the weeks go by so slowly *sob* Why must more Honey & Clover correspond with less summer vacation *breaks down completly sobbing on the floor*

[kauldron26]

Originally Posted by Noodlehead

When Mayama stopped Rika from escaping, I was sort of shocked and a little weirded out -- I mean, it almost looked as if he was going to rape her or something. As he tried to hold her back, he seemed a bit stalker-ish at first

~ Noodlehead

im not sure how old you are, if ur a guy or girl, or how long, and deep ur previous relationship was... I am a black 22 year old college Senior on my way to med school and i can honestly tell you that his reaction was absolutely real and not wierd. When the woman you love and have practically devoted your life to, wants to commit suicide there is no way in hell you will not be supremely angry/pissed/frustrated. i know anime romances can be sweet and cute, but they are not always that way in the real world... and the greatness of honey and clover is its realism. When you really truly love someone, u cannot always express it in a tender way. The whole "tender" thing ends after ur freshman year of college and im telling you this from experience.

After your freshman year of college, u reach a turning point where you can choose if u just want to continue to fool around with girls or if ur ready to try a real relationship. Relationships in college become deep as hell because there realy isnt any superficiality because u see each other every day and u get to know each other more because ur live in the same campus. Unlike high school, u cant be fake because there is a high chance that everyone will get to know the real u n college. Its a time of self identity.

Back to Mayama's behavior... it was perfect and realistic because that is a goddamn absolute human reaction. You will use any means necessary to protect the one you love... even if its from herself. My sophmore year of college my girl thoought i cheated on her (because her friends thought they saw something they didnt) and she then came to my room to literally beat the shit out of me and then leave. So she comes in, interrupts my viewing of the phenomenal Gundam Seed, and then starts drilling me with questions, cursing me out and then proceding to hit me multple times... this is all before i speak. And then she decides to walk out the door and then i flipped out and started yelling and then cornered her. Not because i had bad intentions but because i loved her so much that she had to know the truth by any means necessary....

My point is, when u really love someone and that love is in danger, all that cute and sweet shit goes out the window... real, raw and unfiltered emotions come out.

The girl u love will not always love you back and that hurts like fuck (if u r a guy we've all been there even if u look like brad pitt).... the simple fact that this anime depicts that so well, truly astounds me beyond words. I think Mayama and Rika's love story is the best i have seen since Hachimaki and Ai from Planet ES. If u've never seen Planet ES, i highly recommend it, its #3 on my all time favorite list, its a masterpiece.

Anyways enough rambling... i hope to God Honey and Clover didnt just peak with this episode... This episode for was just too great for words...

[aliensporebomb]

Back again. Verklempt or whatever you call it.

Re: Mayama's scene in the hotel room:

Spoiler:

I think Rika was scared, freaked out, and weirded out by
Mayama's raging diatribe at first (his pushing her against the wall
in her delicate condition had me cringing) but ultimately his
desperation and love reached her - the tears showed her his
concern wasn't really a stalker-ish mental cataclysm but rather
this was the first time he wasn't afraid to lay it on the line and
risk everything (admitting his snooping and other stalker-ish
deeds) to let her know ultimately he wants, no NEEDS, her
around - stopping short of actual confession (but I think this
scene conveyed his feelings in a fervent outpouring in a way
an actual confession could not) but also letting her know that
he'll stop at nothing to keep her around.

Yes, "You've made a big mistake by getting involved with me,
I'm following you no matter where you go..." could have been
a chilling entreaty in someone elses hands but his sudden tears
and begging her to try and live was really a stunner.

And the second apartment in spain - perhaps Rika will be happy
again, but she obviously is still trying to get her bearings. But
Mayama also wasn't afraid to give her what she needed - some
closure from her former life at her former home, a way to say
a final goodbye to a beloved pet - using his mobility and strength
to give her something she herself needed.

If she reciprocates his love for real this time she has a chance to
move on from her guilt and into love and self-acceptance.

Mayama has to learn some patience and trust and she has to give it
for this to work. The seeing her off at the airport is a start in that
direction.

Wow. Wow. Umino Chika you are incredible.

If this is what we have to look forward to for the rest of the season,
I see very little that could eclipse it.

[Noodlehead]

Originally Posted by kauldron26

im not sure how old you are, if ur a guy or girl, or how long, and deep ur previous relationship was... I am a black 22 year old college Senior on my way to med school and i can honestly tell you that his reaction was absolutely real and not wierd. When the woman you love and have practically devoted your life to, wants to commit suicide there is no way in hell you will not be supremely angry/pissed/frustrated. i know anime romances can be sweet and cute, but they are not always that way in the real world... and the greatness of honey and clover is its realism. When you really truly love someone, u cannot always express it in a tender way. The whole "tender" thing ends after ur freshman year of college and im telling you this from experience.

After your freshman year of college, u reach a turning point where you can choose if u just want to continue to fool around with girls or if ur ready to try a real relationship. Relationships in college become deep as hell because there realy isnt any superficiality because u see each other every day and u get to know each other more because ur live in the same campus. Unlike high school, u cant be fake because there is a high chance that everyone will get to know the real u n college. Its a time of self identity.

Back to Mayama's behavior... it was perfect and realistic because that is a goddamn absolute human reaction. You will use any means necessary to protect the one you love... even if its from herself. My sophmore year of college my girl thoought i cheated on her (because her friends thought they saw something they didnt) and she then came to my room to literally beat the shit out of me and then leave. So she comes in, interrupts my viewing of the phenomenal Gundam Seed, and then starts drilling me with questions, cursing me out and then proceding to hit me multple times... this is all before i speak. And then she decides to walk out the door and then i flipped out and started yelling and then cornered her. Not because i had bad intentions but because i loved her so much that she had to know the truth by any means necessary....

My point is, when u really love someone and that love is in danger, all that cute and sweet shit goes out the window... real, raw and unfiltered emotions come out.

The girl u love will not always love you back and that hurts like fuck (if u r a guy we've all been there even if u look like brad pitt).... the simple fact that this anime depicts that so well, truly astounds me beyond words. I think Mayama and Rika's love story is the best i have seen since Hachimaki and Ai from Planet ES. If u've never seen Planet ES, i highly recommend it, its #3 on my all time favorite list, its a masterpiece.

Anyways enough rambling... i hope to God Honey and Clover didnt just peak with this episode... This episode for was just too great for words...

Wow. You bring up some very good points. It made me realize what drew me to Honey & Clover in the first place -- the fact that everything the series depicts, aside from the amiable and nostalgic moments, is so painstakingly true-to-life, regardless of how "harsh" reality may be. That goes for the aspects in the first season of how things were left unresolved and unanswered when it came to the romantic couples in the show -- because in real life, everything is not resolved instantaneously.

I think the reason I was rather shocked in seeing Mayama act the way he did when Rika left was because I wasn't aware of her decision to commit suicide. (Yeah, I'm slow.) So when he abruptly grabbed her, I'd been sort of confused -- and surprised, I guess you could say -- of what was going on. When her demise had been made clear, a lot of things hinted earlier seemed to fall into place. That's when I realized the cause behind Mayama's actions, which, of course, in his given situation, were very rational ones.

And I've heard a lot of good things about Planet ES. I've been planning to start that series for a while now, but never quite gotten around to doing so. Your recommendation has motivated me to start watching it.

Thanks for your informative post, it was very insightful.

~ Noodlehead

[kauldron26]

yo noodlehead, i had planet ES on my computer for a month without watching it because i was like how interesting can garbage men in space be?? and yo, i watched the entire thing in a row... and i can honestly say that its not only one of the greatest animes i have ever seen, but one of the greatest things i have ever seen on celluloid... Arguably one of the greatest experiences i have ever had watching anything at all... the story grabs u in and u just fall in love with the characters and u miss them when its over... i can recommend it highly enough... if u look at my top 10, theres a love story in 9 out of the 10, the one being samurai champloo... but even that had a good love story tho it only lasted one episode that was in episode 11 where Jin fell in love with the woman in the brothel... i like to think Jin went to look for her when their journey was over... so i guess all do have a great love story then...

[mit7059]

Originally Posted by Noodlehead

When Mayama stopped Rika from escaping, I was sort of shocked and a little weirded out -- I mean, it almost looked as if he was going to rape her or something. As he tried to hold her back, he seemed a bit stalker-ish at first, but then when he began to cry, you could see that his feelings were truly sincere. And the way that the insert song fit in so perfectly... that was awesome.

~ Noodlehead

No, It was defenatly stalker-ish but not because of the grabbing, but because he went through all her emails, web history all her files. That is stalker-ish. And lets not forget that Mayama used to sit outside her apartment building every night looking at her window. Thats is REALLY stalker-ish. But Kauldron26 was right about the grabbing part, thats not stalker-ish thats just emotion.

[einlancer]

First of all, episode 4 is absolutely marvelous. It now started to show the extent of how much the relationship of RikaxMayama could get.

But with all the attention the MayamaxRika relationship is getting, I'm feeling sorry for my favorite character who could have been suffering the most when Rika is involved.. Shuu-chan..

The first part of episode 4 clearly show how much love Shuu-chan has for Rika, for if not for him you could say Rika is as good as dead.. Thoughout the ordeal that Rika has suffered, it was him that stood by her the most. It was him that supported her, and it was him who knows how much she suffers. I have always wished for ShuuxRika pairing even from the first season, and after watching this episode, i wanted it more.. But i know it won't be good for the both of them. This is because as much as Shuu-chan love Rika, the problem lies in that he know Harada as well, and how much Rika and Harada love each other. That is why the most touching moment in this episode for me is not that of Mayama's "uncool" admonition of his stalker tendencies, not the scene of RIkaxMayama in Rika's old home, but that of Shuu reaching out to Rika (or maybe it was trying to push Rika over the edge) because he could not take Rika's suffering anymore.. You could definitely see the pain and love of Shuu for Rika in that scene.. It's just so tragic that even if Rika loves Shuu back, they just could not escape the shadow of Harada...