Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Akashin

While you're right that we're not dealing with a linear time model, there is plenty of evidence to suggest the long-term effects of the wish. The other girls being alive again is proof enough of that, unless of course we're treating the new universe as a sixth timeline (in which case they'd be alive again just like in any other reset), but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Actually, the other girls being born at all is highly unlikely under a linear time model. Only one person not being killed at a specific time means that a different couple may have had sex, resulting in a different child... Delete the very first witch, and in a chain-effect you get to the point where a magical girl wouldn't even have been born, so she wouldn't have turned into a witch either, but not because Madoka prevented the event, but because an early event Madoka prevented, prevented the girl to be born in the first place.

But that's incompatible with Madoka's wish, which explicitly centres around the girls' despair. Thus you have to rebalance the universe in a way that allows all the girls to be born. This is impossible in a past-to-future development. Rather you're messing a bit here and there, and once you're done with the main-plot, you fill in the blanks. Basically, Madoka re-wrote history the way you would re-write a story, although probably with stretches of linearity in between.

Plus, the overwritten universe still contains traces of the old one - most obviously in the form of Madoka's brother's memories/perception, and Homura's ribbon's meaning.

Basically, you have to see each magical girl up until the events of the story as a diverging point in history that stretches into two directions (= rearranges both past and future), and all of that has to occur simultaneously. If the universe (multiverse?) doesn't re-arrange in many places simultaneously, the intra-universally first change (i.e. the very first witch) would overwrite everything else, thus very likely none of the girls we know would ever have been born, and thus we couldn't see them in the second half of ep12. (But we do, because it's a Madokacentric universe. The result of the Madokapocalypse.)

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Moridin

The worst misstake any story (tv show, movie, anime, etc) could do, is to not follow the rules that it self has defined. As long as the story follows the rules of that universe I can accept any plot twist and events.

This anime is great, one of the best i have seen. Atleast, until the last few episodes. The outcome of Madoka's wish destroys the entire ending for me.
In the universe madoka lives in, QB have created puela magic since prehistoric times. These girls have then turned into witches which drasticaly effect their immediate environment, either by killing people, making them commit suicide, or simply just spreading despair.
When madoka change the rules of the universe these events would have unfolded differently. None of the witches' victims would have died by witches. Instead there would be a steady pace of "monks" doing whatever it is that they do.

All the events that any witch was involved in in the puella magic/witch universe, from prehistoric times to the days of madoka's life, and all the events from the consequences of those events (and from their consequences, and theirs.... ad infinitum) would thus have to be negated by other events to create a timeline in a new universe where madokas friends and family could exist. Also, all the new events that "monks" would cause in this timeline, and events that the concequences of those events leads to (... ad infinitum) will also have to be negated.
These two facts combined tells us that in order for a timeline, where madokas friends exists, to appear, it would have to have almost nothing in common with the timeline we watched during this anime. The other possibility is that it is actually impossible to recreate such a timeline in a universe governed by the new rules.
Irrelevant of which, there would never be a timeline in the new universe that is so similar to the one we witnessed in the last universe, as the one they are showing us in the last half of the last episode.

I could understand why a show that has not dealt with timetravel and multiple timelines would do such a misstake, and I could even possibly forgive them. But for an anime with great story that has from the start dealt with such things, that kind of misstake is unacceptable.

Actually, even with the Witches eliminated, the suicides and many disasters remained. This time, Witches are no more the cause, the Demons (whatever you call those things that drops black apericubes for QB to loot) are.

[sa547]

Originally Posted by Moridin

The worst misstake any story (tv show, movie, anime, etc) could do, is to not follow the rules that it self has defined. As long as the story follows the rules of that universe I can accept any plot twist and events.

This anime is great, one of the best i have seen. Atleast, until the last few episodes. The outcome of Madoka's wish destroys the entire ending for me... TL;DR

I'm sorry as this show wasn't made for you; you were expecting so much and plot, plot, plot on the smorgasbord. If Gen Urobuchi gave a bad ending, the viewers will be mad; same with the idea of giving a happy-happy ending (ala My-HiME); he has to strike the balance at the end, make some compromises, and some things will have to be sacrificed in exchange for a few good things. If you want the closest comparison between Madoka's ending and other shows, it's Serial Experiments Lain.

Otherwise, wait for a Director's Cut version where those plot holes may be patched in.

I don't care if there's some bad research or pseudoscience involved (if you think the astrophysics in Madoka is wrong, get an astrophysics book to be enlightened)... it's really about the double-edged sword of obtaining immense and seemingly invincible power, and what happens to the girls' lives, their friendships and relationships towards others. More importantly, it tries to answer the question of what it takes to fight for even a shred of hope, and to resolve a monumental problem that has put a girl's world in total jeopardy.

So again, I'm sorry, but you got Gen-trolled.

[dragonshade]

Seriously speaking, Madoka is not really God. I guess people could call her "god". Who created the world before she became "god" ? Or maybe she could travel back in time to create the world which would in turn gives birth to herself. But her wish is to create a new world where there is no witches. So she can't be the one creating the world with witches in it. And when someone pulls out the Multiple Gods thing out, its not God anymore, it can at best be "god".

The ending is not surprising, since Blassreiter, Saya no Uta have , you can say, the same ending as Madoka. どうみても典型的な虚淵です、本当にありがとございました。

[Snork]

Since demons' modus operandi is hinted to be the same as that of witches, a butterfly effect is not necessary: everyone killed by witches in the previous timeline has all chances of falling victim to demons. Demons are not just there to fill in the fuel niche for Kyuubey - they emphasize that there is little to no change for humanity. Wishes are granted, people are killed, those whose encounter with demons is prevented by magical girls killing the latter survive. Magical girls live out their lives, both mundane and secret, until they are killed by a demon or disappear. The only real human scratched away since her very birth is Madoka, and we don't know to what extent exactly it changed the life of Kaname household.

Basically, the show doesn't give us an option like butterfly effect. If you accept the possibility of such an amount of changes throughout the history, then what are the odds of the sixth timeline being shaped up as it is? With Mitakiharashi city in the same location, with Mami, Homura, Sayaka and Kyouko not only born but becoming magical girls with the same outfits and equipment and presumably wishes (well, not including Homura, maybe), with the same supporting cast like Kaname family and Kamijou around? Either we're forced to believe that Madokami-sama redesigned the world specifically (and her competence in that field remains highly debatable until further info), or the demons are there to complete the timeline. Given their origins, it's possible they might have existed before witches (and become extinct then), and it's also possible Madoka might have inquired Kyuubey off-screen about things like that. Seeing as her wish was well-thought, wouldn't she realize the possible impact of simply removing witches from history?

[kaigan]

Originally Posted by Riga92

I think it would be awesome of Shaft makes an OVA of Drama CD 1. Seeing as it expands on the events of Timeline 1, I say it would be perfect for an OVA.

i agree with this. if i read the correct information the cd is an hour long. so there's enough material that it could be a 2-part 30 min ova series or an hour movie (with additional scenes and dialogue).

but i'm expecting hardcore fans to create mads/fanimations anytime soon

[Proto]

@Linear time model discussion:

Wasn't the whole point of the magical beasts to fill in the gaps?

[Snork]

Seriously speaking, Madoka is not really God. I guess people could call her "god". Who created the world before she became "god" ? Or maybe she could travel back in time to create the world which would in turn gives birth to herself. But her wish is to create a new world where there is no witches. So she can't be the one creating the world with witches in it. And when someone pulls out the Multiple Gods thing out, its not God anymore, it can at best be "god".

The whole idea grows from Madoka's cool dress, omnipresense, absense of physical body and "having changed laws of the universe". Too bad the latter turn out to be laws of the Puella Magi system that was established by Incubators upon an ill-explainable power and doesn't seem to fit that perfectly into the universe itself.

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by Snork

Huh, that might be interesting. The least we can do is jump at a speculah about spritual similarities, or similar wishes, or even reincarnation...

How can Middle Eastern girl be a reincarnation of someone from the future?

[sa547]

Originally Posted by dragonshade

Seriously speaking, Madoka is not really God. I guess people could call her "god". Who created the world before she became "god" ? Or maybe she could travel back in time to create the world which would in turn gives birth to herself. But her wish is to create a new world where there is no witches. So she can't be the one creating the world with witches in it. And when someone pulls out the Multiple Gods thing out, its not God anymore, it can at best be "god".

The ending is not surprising, since Blassreiter, Saya no Uta have , you can say, the same ending as Madoka. どうみても典型的な虚淵です、本当にありがとございました。

QB asked if she wanted to be a god, but Madoka didn't care what would happen to her, as long as she wanted to get her wish fulfilled.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Proto

@Linear time model discussion:

Wasn't the whole point of the magical beasts to fill in the gaps?

Quoting you, because you're the most concise, but others also brought it up.

My impression was that there were more of those demon thingies, and they were more mobile than witches, which would mean that they would have met different people. You'd still have to reshuffle, or fit their time-space-trajectories to a desired result, rather than let events result from its own trajectory.

I may be wrong, of course, about the differences between witches and those demon thingies, but they make sense to me in this me: Rather than tie a specific entitiy to a specific person, Madoka takes the despair and discharges it when it builds up too much. (Basically, they're all Madoka's familiars.) But this would mean that their appearance is not tied to the time and place of a magical girl's breakdown. Synchronising that would sort of make the difference beaurocratic: "Oh, that's not you; it's just your negative energy incarnated at the time and place of your death-through-despair."

***

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

How can Middle Eastern girl be a reincarnation of someone from the future?

Under a non-linear time model, that would be possible. Of course, from our point of view that would be a pre-incarnation.

[Snork]

How can Middle Eastern girl be a reincarnation of someone from the future?

How about vice versa? We weren't shown all of Madoka's appearances in chronological order anyway.

My impression was that there were more of those demon thingies, and they were more mobile than witches, which would mean that they would have met different people. You'd still have to reshuffle, or fit their time-space-trajectories to a desired result, rather than let events result from its own trajectory.

I can only guess so much, but seeing as these demons attack people from the dark and hide in the barriers, they are strongly implied to share a lot of traits and maybe tactics with witches. In the light of that, the odds of their time-space-trajectories coinciding are not dismissable. These may be SMALL odds, but fiction has never been above operating microscopic chances and probabilities.
If demons really influence the human world in the same way as witches, numbers may be less important. We have yet to know their range of powers and attacks, but at first glance they looked less diverse and maybe weaker than witches. Of course, if every demon spammed around is as strong as your average witch, Puelae Magi are in for a tough ride, and the number of human casualties may be much higher indeed. On the other hand, if power levels differ from weak to strong randomly, a cluster of demons might sum up to as much power as a single witch plus familiars. And weak demons roaming alone would present about as much trouble as stray familiars - being dangerous, but not overly devastating. Although they may accumulate power, too - and it would be another thing in common with witch system.

Madoka takes the despair and discharges it when it builds up too much. (Basically, they're all Madoka's familiars.)

Boy, it really is Kriemhild Gretchen all over again.
Of course, being able to discharge accumulated despair is a more optimistic variant for Madoka herself. If ever so slightly. But then again, it would have to be a side effect. The idea of Madoka deliberately spawning demons just to keep the timecloth intact and Incubators busy... sounds both weird and bitter. Meaning she's obliged to endanger people and magical girls for greater good, which is not TOO far from Kyuubey's modus operandi.

[mols]

I haven't read the whole thread... not yet at least.
But is it me that didn't understand, or do the mahou shoujo do meet and join Madoka when they die/disappear?
I have the idea that when we see Sayaka and Madoka in spirit/ghost near the end, it is when Sayaka disappears (and the other girls are there, and Kyouko says somethig like they just had become friends...).
The image of both of them talking while listening to Kyousuke is shown before Sayaka disappears, so maybe I missed something...
I I didn't, then Madoka has become something like the final resting place for all mahou shoujo...

[Snork]

Yeah, it seems to be implied. Given Madoka's current state, it should be way easier for her to interact with souls than with living people. And beyond space and time, you can probably make up any ethereal environment you can imagine, so... become Puella Magi, fight demons for your wish and then go to a tea and cake party. Indeed, that would the closest to a happy ending you can EVER expect from Gen Urobuchi.

[mols]

Well, it is something to sweeten her sacrifice. After all, she remembers her family and other non mahou shoujo friends I suppose, but can't interact with them and they don't remember her.
Also, not all mahou shoujou know her, so it must be weird for her. She was just a girl after all. But the idea that she can spend, as you said, the rest of her existence in some kind of cake party with her friends makes things a little bit less tragic.

...actually, maybe she is now something like an after life VIP club. Only mahou shoujo allowed.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by mols

...actually, maybe she is now something like an after life VIP club. Only mahou shoujo allowed.

Yes, the Valhalla of Mahou Shoujo. Having tea parties until Ragnarok.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Snork

Yeah, it seems to be implied. Given Madoka's current state, it should be way easier for her to interact with souls than with living people. And beyond space and time, you can probably make up any ethereal environment you can imagine, so... become Puella Magi, fight demons for your wish and then go to a tea and cake party. Indeed, that would the closest to a happy ending you can EVER expect from Gen Urobuchi.

But this is precisely what happens. If you recall, immediately after Madoka makes her wish, she is transported to Mami's living room, when they talk briefly about how Madoka has become hope, while of course eating tea and cake.

Where are they? It can't be the ordinary world, or any version of it. We know this since Kyoko suddenly appears out of nowhere in the middle of the conversation.

Madoka might be imagining the scene, but that would be odd--why would she be imagining in her mind Mami and Kyoko encouraging her in her new role? The scene only works dramatically if Mami and Kyoko are somehow really talking to her.

My take is that this is the afterlife, a Tokyo where Mami is always living in her apartment, and serving tea and cake to Madoka and Kyoko whenever they appear. Afternoon Tea Time Forever!

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Yes, the Valhalla of Mahou Shoujo. Having tea parties until Ragnarok.

Valkyire Profile: Madoka

Come on Japan make it happen.

[Snork]

We seem to be getting enough votes for a petition to Tri-Ace soon.
Concerning other magical girls... Like I said, at the moment if their demise, overloaded with despair, Madoka may seem like a saviour to them. I think it was a line in Hagoshod's fanfic? "God? I didn't think you were a magical girl..." and we know Madoka redefines sweet person, so getting along with everyone will be a matter of time, which they definitely won't lack.

[mols]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

But this is precisely what happens. If you recall, immediately after Madoka makes her wish, she is transported to Mami's living room, when they talk briefly about how Madoka has become hope, while of course eating tea and cake.

Where are they? It can't be the ordinary world, or any version of it. We know this since Kyoko suddenly appears out of nowhere in the middle of the conversation.

Madoka might be imagining the scene, but that would be odd--why would she be imagining in her mind Mami and Kyoko encouraging her in her new role? The scene only works dramatically if Mami and Kyoko are somehow really talking to her.

My take is that this is the afterlife, a Tokyo where Mami is always living in her apartment, and serving tea and cake to Madoka and Kyoko whenever they appear. Afternoon Tea Time Forever!

Yes... but that was before she changed the way the world(s) worked...I think.
So she was able to speak with them because they were dead. Once she changes everything, they are alive. Then again, if Madoka is still in the past, present and future, for her everyone is dead and alive, at the same time.

Personally, I like to think that she no longer needs to destroy the witches of the past since they no longer exist. And I don't think that the past keeps occurring over and over again. She "fixed"everything at the same time. So, now, there is only the present/future... anyway, that is how I see things. Keeping multiple realities at the same time is too much for me.