(L) Elfen Lied

[martino]

Originally Posted by sjbawpn

P.S.: @martino, from what anime does your avatar come from. Its at the tip of my tongue but i just can't quite remember. :P

Final Approach

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by sjbawpn

The story makes us sympathise with Kouta and Nyu, Yuka who hasnt suffered as much as they have but wants Kouta all for herself when its Lucy/Nyu who actually need him. To me there is no justifyable relation between Yuka and Kouta.

We can also see Yuka as being indirectly responsible for their misery.. Being so stuck and selfish and imposing herself on Kouta, she was the origin of nyu's breakdown. Yet after 8 years she expresses jealousy towards someone more miserable than her.

I really started hating her when i learned she gets married to Kouta. At the end things go her way.

(To make things clear I hate Yuka, not the way the story was developped. Honestly, I dont think Kouta marrying Lucy/Nyu would have made the story as beautiful and sad as it is now)

P.S.: @martino, from what anime does your avatar come from. Its at the tip of my tongue but i just can't quite remember. :P

Do you really believe lucy deserves kouta after all the evil she did to him and to many others? Even lucy herself would say she doesn't deserve him it doesn't matter whether she needs him in karmic debt terms the only thing lucy derserves or gets is one way trip to hell so she can suffer eternally. hell yuka deserves him more cause she has not done any evil better selfish than a devil

Don't get me wrong I do not hate lucy but nothing can justify what she has done period

[sjbawpn]

I disagree 100% with you one that one. When you are conditionned to kill against your will, you need to get your will to be stronger than that condition. Lucy was all alone, tormented in horrible ways, her diclonious virus took over and made her kill all her class. Then one day she meets Kouta, is about to kill him too but is stopped when he shows kindness to her. Its that kindness that makes her aware of that "bloodthursty" state. When she tells herself : "Ill need to kill some more to find a new place to live" then "What am I saying? Why do i want to kill!" .. then confronts her diclonius virus. Koutas support is making her will stronger.
Then Sticky Yuka comes along giving Lucy wrong ideas and making her feel betrayed. That "pillar" that was supporting her will is shattered.. and you know what happened next

Lucy would only have deserved to go to hell if she felt confortable and happy about her condition and felt no guild about it. (making her truely evil).

No one in the story suffered more than Lucy. Not even Kouta in my opinion. Lucy actually had to live with herself when Kouta lost his memory during his 8 years.

I think its amazing that Lucy didnt completly fall into dispair and was still salvageable after all shes been through... And I think Kouta saw that. Thats why he doesnt hate her.
The fact that Kouta understands Lucy (after all hes been through) and Lucy's will can still be supported by Kouta (after all shes been through) means that they are ment to be toghether

And thats exactly why i cant get over that story and i like it so much. It is much deeper than you seem to realize.

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by sjbawpn

I disagree 100% with you one that one. When you are conditionned to kill against your will, you need to get your will to be stronger than that condition. Lucy was all alone, tormented in horrible ways, her diclonious virus took over and made her kill all her class. Then one day she meets Kouta, is about to kill him too but is stopped when he shows kindness to her. Its that kindness that makes her aware of that "bloodthursty" state. When she tells herself : "Ill need to kill some more to find a new place to live" then "What am I saying? Why do i want to kill!" .. then confronts her diclonius virus. Koutas support is making her will stronger.
Then Sticky Yuka comes along giving Lucy wrong ideas and making her feel betrayed. That "pillar" that was supporting her will is shattered.. and you know what happened next

Lucy would only have deserved to go to hell if she felt confortable and happy about her condition and felt no guild about it. (making her truely evil).

No one in the story suffered more than Lucy. Not even Kouta in my opinion. Lucy actually had to live with herself when Kouta lost his memory during his 8 years.

I think its amazing that Lucy didnt completly fall into dispair and was still salvageable after all shes been through...

And thats exactly why i cant get over that story and i like it so much. It is much deeper than you seem to realize.

Conditionend to kill against her will sorry but that is bs. She chose that path the virus never took over her for the most part all it did was suggest lucy an option(lucy said so herself) and guess what she took it she stupidly took it instead of finding another way she follwed the suggestion of a monster and became a monster. The virus only took over her once in the manga and when she came to her senses she had no recollection of what she did only time she was innocent of anything the rest was her choice. this more eveident in the manga where she is sadist whom enjoys making people suffer.

She is a killer by choice. her will was weak and could not resist the temptations of a devil.

I know how deep it is but what most of lucy fans constantly excuse her crimes saying the virus did it or oh her sad poor life well guess what it does not matter how shitty your life is you don't what lucy did.

when finally realized the severity of her crimes it was too little too late and she died the death of a beast in the manga

[sjbawpn]

then how do you explain her suffering. How do you explain her split personality? Who do you think that little voice in her head that she has been fighting with Koutas support is?

I respect your opinion but if you take the definition of "choice", there is no way in the world it can be applied to Kaede (Lucys real name)

P.S.: i have no clue what happened in the manga. I know its more brutal and there are some stuff changed but im only basing what im saying on the anime.

Can you explain what happens in the manga? im curious ( and cant read japanese :P)

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by sjbawpn

then how do you explain her suffering. How do you explain her split personality? Who do you think that little voice in her head that she has been fighting with Koutas support is?

I respect your opinion but if you take the definition of "choice", there is no way in the world it can be applied to Kaede (Lucys real name)

The manga already says it the split personality is not controling her for the most part she is by her won following her commands thinking it will lead to her happiness. its complete idiocy thinking she will make a utopia on the graves of her fellow humans its plain mad and unrealistic plus her war was unwinable 6 billion of us against one of her.

As for koutas support a lot of good that is doing she was still killing even with koutas support simply put she was beaten by her power like shin natsume of tenjo tenge.

simply put kaede made piss poor choices and she cannot expect to be forgiven for it still she got forgiveness from kouta after ten years(manga only)

Spoiler:

one of my fave manga parts is when lucy kills the real monster of the series the madman kakuzawa and tell him he was a fool a delusional fool living in his own self fabricated fantasy thinking diclonius and humans are seperate species she said diclos are humans like everyone else only born with horns and a unique power plus she said to the corpse of her little half brother that if our blood must not exist kinda saying if were nothing but killers we shouldn't live I once hated lucy entirely but after witnessing this I gained a profound respect for her

[Silpelit7]

I always just assumed that Lucy's killing was based on genetic information. DNA. It had always been there; her classmates merely brought it out. She didn't even control it at the time; her rage just exploded when she realized that she could do nothing to protect that puppy. She felt powerless, but the Vector mutation was a subconscious way for her to have the power to do as she pleased.

I agree that she did not have to continue using her powers to kill. She, herself, even questions her motives while she was with Kouta. He is her one base which kept her grounded in humanity, resulting in Nyu-chan. Nyu is Lucy's escape from herself, escaping from being a killer and from being hated. Lucy finally comes to terms with herself and accepts the fact that she should die, and thus Nyu was no longer necessary.

As for Lucy's real name being "Kaede," is that from the manga? I know in the anime, Kouta's place is named "Kaede House." It belong to Yuka's mother (?) I think.

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by Silpelit7

I always just assumed that Lucy's killing was based on genetic information. DNA. It had always been there; her classmates merely brought it out. She didn't even control it at the time; her rage just exploded when she realized that she could do nothing to protect that puppy. She felt powerless, but the Vector mutation was a subconscious way for her to have the power to do as she pleased.

I agree that she did not have to continue using her powers to kill. She, herself, even questions her motives while she was with Kouta. He is her one base which kept her grounded in humanity, resulting in Nyu-chan. Nyu is Lucy's escape from herself, escaping from being a killer and from being hated. Lucy finally comes to terms with herself and accepts the fact that she should die, and thus Nyu was no longer necessary.

As for Lucy's real name being "Kaede," is that from the manga? I know in the anime, Kouta's place is named "Kaede House." It belong to Yuka's mother (?) I think.

Spoiler:

the name kaede was from her real mother the one that gave birth to her whom loved her in the manga she was come back for her but kakuzawa intercepted her forced himself on her and gave birth to her little half brother. She killed herself after this. meaning kakuzawa was directly responsible for all of lucys misery

[Silpelit7]

Jeez, that's so freakin cruel... I'll always hope for some kind of OAV to be released which follows the manga closely. They did it with Hellsing Ultimate, right? I can have dreams...

[sjbawpn]

Taking your word for it about what happened in the manga, i somehow agree with you (given the fact that Kaede was born evil). If she wasnt born evil, i find it really complex. a little too close to what would happen in real life.

-from what i understand, in the anime, Lucy is more of a martyr.
-In the manga, its closer to what would happen in real life, she just goes crazy and goes haywire killing everything and has really weak will. (by real life i mean no one can go through this torture and stay sane)

still in both cases i feel sorry for them. (Though i definitly like the anime version better)...

I read that anime covers chapters 1-60 from the manga.. so.. in what part of the manga does she die a beasts death like you said.
I thought that

Spoiler:

after chapter 60, kaede lives but without her horns she is in Nyu state untill they grow back or something like that

and

Spoiler:

Kaede reminds Kouta of the promiss they made as children to meet in the dogs grave and Kouta waits for her for 10 years

thats at the very end of the manga right?

Again what i was saying before is only valid for the anime.

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by sjbawpn

Taking your word for it about what happened in the manga, i somehow agree with you (given the fact that Kaede was born evil). If she wasnt born evil, i find it really complex. a little too close to what would happen in real life.

-from what i understand, in the anime, Lucy is more of a martyr.
-In the manga, its closer to what would happen in real life, she just goes crazy and goes haywire killing everything and has really weak will. (by real life i mean no one can go through this torture and stay sane)

still in both cases i feel sorry for them. (Though i definitly like the anime version better)...

I read that anime covers chapters 1-60 from the manga.. so.. in what part of the manga does she die a beasts death like you said.
I thought that

Spoiler:

after chapter 60, kaede lives but without her horns she is in Nyu state untill they grow back or something like that

and

Spoiler:

Kaede reminds Kouta of the promiss they made as children to meet in the dogs grave and Kouta waits for her for 10 years

thats at the very end of the manga right?

Again what i was saying before is only valid for the anime.

Eh no kaede was never born evil she was psychologically normal till all the abuse and virus voice which seems to ocurr when the horned human is in moments of despair nana heard it twice in first time she nearly succumbed to it and would have killed bando had she not snapped otu in time

[sjbawpn]

so.. ever since that dog died shes been evil? killing without any remorse or hesitation whats so ever and feeling absolutely happy about it...? So.. what makes her... not evil anymore.. seems like she crosses the line of no-return in terms of sanity. How could she possibly feel anything for Kouta?

The manga is very complex... im gonna read it when its translated, but the anime seems more tragic than the manga

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by sjbawpn

so.. ever since that dog died shes been evil? killing without any remorse or hesitation whats so ever and feeling absolutely happy about it...? So.. what makes her... not evil anymore.. seems like she crosses the line of no-return in terms of sanity. How could she possibly feel anything for Kouta?

Its not that hard to understand IMO - after all Kouta was the only one in her life ( as far as we know ) who didnt turn her down because she was different, so its only natural she has feelings for him

[sjbawpn]

bah. i just like to go into the dephts of very good stories and i just found this one very complex compared to others
(i mean for many things, there is no possible way we can give a single justfiyable interpretation) One way of looking at it can make as much sens as another way and the creators left the story extremly opened to opened to the audience in a very well done way.

For example i can see how justified the Kouta-Kaede relation is.. but her actions are very hard to explain especially in the manga. And we cant just blame everything on the virus.

I mean in the manga, there are 2 Kaedes. a killer one (Lucy) and a harmeless one (Nyu). Both are in love with Kouta exept one is complely insane and bloodthursty disregarding Koutas support.

In the anime, she seems more of a lost person in search of redemption and Koutas love is keeping her sane. There are moments where she says that doesnt want anyone else involved. She even tells Kouta that he was a happy dream, the only good memory in her life, she cheriches the moments they spent toghether. Shes not completely out of it. And thats exactly why i feel sorry for her. An "Evil" killer is someone who isnt suffering while killing. Like Director Kakuzawa.
She says that she was born to put an end to human life.
And there is nothing harder than to fight your own nature. Sure we can't blame everything on the virus. But the real "Evil" in the story is the Virus and the society that treated her like an animal and did inhumane things.

Although its true you feel sorry for the people who got slaughetered, You can't possibly feel compassionate for them exept for the inocent bystanders who got caught in the crossfire.

Saying Kaede is a completely horrible person is wrong. She saw her puppy getting beat the hell out of by the same peope who keep on harassing her.

When someone lights a forest fire, who do you blame for the forest being burnt down, the fire or the one who started it?

[heroplant]

to me its like a war between the 2 races:human and diclonius

human claims that diclonius has some sort of killing instinct and becoz of the power and strength diclonius have,humans r afraid that they will take over them and treat diclonius as a threat to the human race.
I believe even a normal human got caged in a facility that shoot metal ball @ u daily and do all those kind of inhuman things will make him a crazy guy that full of hatred. Esp diclonius has some kind of DNA that can make them go berserk

Since human treated the diclonius in such inhuman way. Its pretty normal that diclonius think human as a threat to them and think all of them r the same.
The killing instinct DNA is just another thing that make all the things go worse and there the war starts.

In a war its always the innocent ppl that dies Lucy wasnt really a born killer untill the ppl around her treated in such way just becoz she has a horn and different from human. (Actually i find the horns r very cute and no matter what i cant kill a dog like what the kids did in there but thats how the anime set up)
And who actually started the war?i m not really sure...maybe its the evil inside the darkside of mankind

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by heroplant

to me its like a war between the 2 races:human and diclonius

human claims that diclonius has some sort of killing instinct and becoz of the power and strength diclonius have,humans r afraid that they will take over them and treat diclonius as a threat to the human race.
I believe even a normal human got caged in a facility that shoot metal ball @ u daily and do all those kind of inhuman things will make him a crazy guy that full of hatred. Esp diclonius has some kind of DNA that can make them go berserk

Since human treated the diclonius in such inhuman way. Its pretty normal that diclonius think human as a threat to them and think all of them r the same.
The killing instinct DNA is just another thing that make all the things go worse and there the war starts.

In a war its always the innocent ppl that dies Lucy wasnt really a born killer untill the ppl around her treated in such way just becoz she has a horn and different from human. (Actually i find the horns r very cute and no matter what i cant kill a dog like what the kids did in there but thats how the anime set up)
And who actually started the war?i m not really sure...maybe its the evil inside the darkside of mankind

Spoiler:

manga fact and pure fact diclonius are not a different race or species they are humans like everyone else only born different lucy said so herself also kakuzawas daughter who could see the future knew this fact but did not wish to tell her father that he is what he hates. one might say the term "diclonius" was made up by kakuzawa as part of his fantasy to separate them from mankind when the are part of mankind

[heroplant]

Originally Posted by Yorae_paladin1

Spoiler:

manga fact and pure fact diclonius are not a different race or species they are humans like everyone else only born different lucy said so herself also kakuzawas daughter who could see the future knew this fact.

the "race" i mean is more like 2 types of human...for example: different countries ppl having wars just becoz they r different

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by heroplant

the "race" i mean is more like 2 types of human...for example: different countries ppl having wars just becoz they r different

Oh right still we are all humans regardless of our differences. some people don't understand that its the sheer diversity we got that makes us such a great species one of our strenghts

[sjbawpn]

Agreed. thats why i feel for kaede.

[Seyok]

Is there anywhere one could download the last volume?